2024 - Valencia Pre Season Test

mikesbytes · Nov 30, 2023

KTM is less consistent than Honda

#22 · Nov 30, 2023

I couldnt direct link to the video, so I have posted the reddit link of an interesting video of Marc talking to his crew cheif after his first run:

Here is is, roughly translated to the key points:

After that, they would pull down the shutters and restrict access further. That's why Sky, the Italian TV station that has the rights to the MotoGP World Championship, captured the conversation the elder Marquez had with Frankie Carchedi, his new crew chief, after his first run on the Desmosedici GP23. They were only seven laps, but in them, the Cervera rider was improving little by little until he finished third at that point, just three tenths off the best.

In the chat, after the smile, the Catalan details more technically the differences he notices between the Honda he rode for the last eleven years and this Ducati. These are the points he highlighted.

Excellent rear grip

Marc was very pleased with the grip at the rear of the bike. It has been one of the weak points of the Japanese machine in recent years and the '93' was delighted with it.

Less physically demanding than the Honda

Another point the Spaniard liked was that it was a less physically demanding prototype than the Honda. It was less difficult, especially when changing direction. Marc was always very good at this aspect of lifting the bike quickly and he appreciates it. He felt it, especially in the chicane in the second part of the Valencian track.

More spin than expected

From the outside, studying and chasing the Ducati riders in recent times, Marc had noticed that the bike struggled to turn. In fact, it was a perennial complaint of Andrea Dovizioso, for example, although the younger riders had noticed a recent improvement in it. The eight-time champion noticed that it turned better than he thought it would in the corners. He loved that too.

Calls for changes in ergonomics

As it is only the beginning of the test and on his first day on the bike, Marc feels that he is not entirely comfortable with his position on the machine. For this reason he requires small changes in the ergonomics of the vehicle. They are small adjustments in height, saddle and so on. He had already sat on it on Monday, but when riding he noticed more things.

Improved leaning on the throttle

Not everything could be excellent and Marc tells Carchedi that the bike - at that time of day - could be improved when he opens the throttle when leaning. He considers that he doesn't feel the front end as he should in that phase of acceleration. He feels that the bike goes wide when doing so.

Concerned about braking

Márquez knows that it is a point in which he has always excelled and that is why he wants to pay a lot of attention to braking. He is also aware that Jorge Martin's improvement in this area has brought him closer to Pecco Bagnaia, who almost all the Ducati riders said was the strongest and deepest under braking. Marc notices that if he brakes too hard the rear of the bike lifts up. He admits to his technician that he needs to improve to be more progressive and to close the corner better.

Afterwards, Marc continued to ride and his lap times dropped considerably to finish the day fourth, just three tenths of a second off the best. By then, Gresini had closed his garage even more and these conversations were more secret. On 1 January, he will be able to talk freely about everything.

Interesting that he says, in summary, that in mid corner, the Honda turns better. I.e. at 40% throttle, he could stand turn the Honda sharper and stand it up, which he cannot do with the Ducati (yet). I'm guessing some of this is riding style, but also a lot of it is the rear grip issue. A bike with less rear grip (i.e. oversteery) is going to want to rotate more than one with more rear grip and is stable. When did you last see a Ducati fire someone to the moon? Bagnaia in Catalunya yes, but it isn't a regular occurence like it has been with the Honda.

Remember, this was just after 7 laps! Amazing feedback he can give and projects it in such a clear manner.

As a side note, I know they cannot do it, but I'd LOVE to hear more of this talk (from all riders). The technical aspect is what I enjoy most of MGP and I really live listening to the riders give debriefs. It's another thing that separates the greats from the average, those that give detailed insight as opposed to just saying 'Its ....!' (Zarco).

#22 · Nov 30, 2023

Mark explaining the braking:

MdubSTYLIE · Nov 30, 2023

Good stuff double 2's

Bern1 · Nov 30, 2023

I think a lot of the oversteer on the Honda was a result of the way Marc rides. Outbrake anybody, get it turned, stand the thing up and get on the gas. This worked until it didn’t.

Somehow I don’t think MM is all that great at giving feedback on how to improve things. I think some of the blame for the .... Honda has to come back squarely on his shoulders. Once it turned to .... he was unable to change it. I doubt Honda was listening to any other rider.

DavidSim · Nov 30, 2023

Bern1 said:
I think a lot of the oversteer on the Honda was a result of the way Marc rides. Outbrake anybody, get it turned, stand the thing up and get on the gas. This worked until it didn’t.

Somehow I don’t think MM is all that great at giving feedback on how to improve things. I think some of the blame for the .... Honda has to come back squarely on his shoulders. Once it turned to .... he was unable to change it. I doubt Honda was listening to any other rider.

I hope he doesn't end up trying to change the Ducati to be a Honda !

MdubSTYLIE · Nov 30, 2023

DavidSim said:
I hope he doesn't end up trying to change the Ducati to be a Honda !

I don't see that being an issue. He is on a year old customer bike. The factory team and Pramac are the only ones responsible for development.

MdubSTYLIE · Nov 30, 2023

Bern1 said:
Somehow I don’t think MM is all that great at giving feedback on how to improve things. I think some of the blame for the .... Honda has to come back squarely on his shoulders. Once it turned to .... he was unable to change it. I doubt Honda was listening to any other rider.

Totally hypothetical. Riders ride. Engineers engineer. I have said in the past though that riders like Marc and Stoner don't have reliable data because of the freakish style in which they ride. The biggest change recently in the bike was something Pol desired though. The honda went downhill while Marc was injured.

michaelm · Nov 30, 2023

Bern1 said:
I think a lot of the oversteer on the Honda was a result of the way Marc rides. Outbrake anybody, get it turned, stand the thing up and get on the gas. This worked until it didn’t.

Somehow I don’t think MM is all that great at giving feedback on how to improve things. I think some of the blame for the .... Honda has to come back squarely on his shoulders. Once it turned to .... he was unable to change it. I doubt Honda was listening to any other rider.

As has been said riders like him and Stoner have such extreme riding styles that their feedback is not as useful as feedback from more conventional riders, but sure MM may just not be good at evaluating and setting bikes up, another reason Puig should have kept Pedrosa who has a strong record for bike development, both at Honda and at KTM subsequently.

Nakamoto did foresee problems ahead for Honda with the control ECU, which have come to pass, and I am still of the opinion they need to re-design their engine which was devised to work with bespoke Honda software. MM is pretty much on the record as saying to the Honda engineers to just make the bike as fast as possible and he would ride it, but obviously that stopped working. I suspect they need an engine re-design, and if so that is on Honda. I also consider it likely the control tyre is designed for the conventional riding styles of the bulk of the field. I personally enjoy watching the likes of MM and Stoner riding extraordinarily then a close battle between more mundane riders.

Paul55 · Nov 30, 2023

Marini 10th on the new Honda, have to wonder how Marquez would have done with it.

michaelm · Nov 30, 2023

michaelm said:
As has been said riders like him and Stoner have such extreme riding styles that their feedback is not as useful as feedback from more conventional riders, but sure MM may just not be good at evaluating and setting bikes up, another reason Puig should have kept Pedrosa who has a strong record for bike development, both at Honda and at KTM subsequently.

Nakamoto did foresee problems ahead for Honda with the control ECU, which have come to pass, and I am still of the opinion they need to re-design their engine which was devised to work with bespoke Honda software. MM is pretty much on the record as saying to the Honda engineers to just make the bike as fast as possible and he would ride it, but obviously that stopped working. I suspect they need an engine re-design, and if so that is on Honda. I also consider it likely the control tyre is designed for the conventional riding styles of the bulk of the field. I personally enjoy watching the likes of MM and Stoner riding extraordinarily than a close battle between more mundane riders.

more than

DavidSim · Nov 30, 2023

Paul55 said:
Marini 10th on the new Honda, have to wonder how Marquez would have done with it.

I remember people badmouthing KTM before the 2023 season started, and guess what they surprised everyone with their performance in 2023 (not sure how much Jack had to do with that when he came along).

I think Honda might surprise us in 2024, they certainly have the resources, hopefully they now have the will !!!

I personally believe that Marc moving along is a good thing for both him and Honda, we shall see.

p4p1 · Nov 30, 2023

MdubSTYLIE said:
Totally hypothetical. Riders ride. Engineers engineer. I have said in the past though that riders like Marc and Stoner don't have reliable data because of the freakish style in which they ride. The biggest change recently in the bike was something Pol desired though. The honda went downhill while Marc was injured.

I think Riders feedback effect is probably exaggerated though. They tell the engineers how something feels on the bike, whether it feels stable or not. Experience definitely helps so they have something to compare it to but at the end of the day they aren't coming up with ideas. They are telling the engineers if their work makes the bike rideable for them or not. It is obviously a really important factor to have for the engineers but a common theme seems to be that a certain rider has developed a bike, when really all they have done is evaluated parts that were provided to them.

mikesbytes · Nov 30, 2023

Providing Marini doesn't get injured we could possibly compare the progress of the Honda by comparing Marini's results in 2024 with Marini's results in 2023. While Marini rode a 2022 bike in 2023 and Marini will be riding a 2024 bike in 2024, the difference of a year with the Ducati between the 2023 and 2022 bike isn't that great

We will also see whether Mir improves or not, once again injury might make the comparison difficult

BTY has anyone compared Honda's aero 2023 vs 2024?

Barbedwirebikerr · Dec 1, 2023

Marc. Repsol Honda debut V Ducati Gresini debut.

Mick D · Dec 1, 2023

mikesbytes said:
Providing Marini doesn't get injured we could possibly compare the progress of the Honda by comparing Marini's results in 2024 with Marini's results in 2023. While Marini rode a 2022 bike in 2023 and Marini will be riding a 2024 bike in 2024, the difference of a year with the Ducati between the 2023 and 2022 bike isn't that great

We will also see whether Mir improves or not, once again injury might make the comparison difficult

BTY has anyone compared Honda's aero 2023 vs 2024?

All I am reading is, 'who's on first... '

man that was a paragraph