- Joined
- Mar 3, 2016
- Messages
- 1,523
- Location
- FNQ
Fair cop.
2024 silly season!
- Thread starter #22
- Start date
Help Support MotoGP Forum:
My view as well . The control ecu was supposed to reduce costs and promote equality across the field but there is currently one very dominant manufacturer, Honda need to design a new engine, and large money is being spent on aero and ride height devices irrelevant to road bikes, Sure, maybe 4 or 5 riders being able to win on Ducatis might be better or certainly no worse than only 3 or 4 riders on factory Hondas or Yamahas being able to win, but I am cynical about so called equalisation in motorsports and whatever they have been doing in motogp has produced bikes on which you can’t pass other bikes, for me similar to how aero ruined F1 of which I was a fan back in the day.So let em run their own ecu again then. It was supposedly to make GP racing less costly as the reason the spec ecu came in.
What a crock of .....
For example, Mercedes won the 2014 F1 title using a hydraulic ride-height regulator (basically a 2000-part hydraulic computer). Mercedes was allowed to keep this tech for the entire season – well done guys, clever job etc – but at the end of the year F1 banned ride-height regulators, for cost reasons.
This same technology arrived in MotoGP a few years ago – when Ducati introduced its ride-height device (designed by German engineer Robin Tuluie, who also created the Mercedes system) – and is still there, despite misgivings from many quarters. Why?
Change MotoGP’s tech rules? 'You may end up with the opposite of what you’re trying to achieve'
Many fans think MotoGP’s technical rules need changing, so Mat Oxley sat down with Dorna management to discuss lack of overtaking, downforce aero, ride-height devices, concessions, safety and much morewww.motorsportmagazine.com
I can understand Honda being a bit pissed off. They can't run their own ecu and are expected to design a motor around the spec one (more cost) whilst ride height devices and aero rolls on which would be way more expensive by a factor a heaps.
In any case I don't see the Honda being more competitive anytime soon.
You don't go there with championship aspirations it would seem. Ask Marquez.
To go back to Mercedes while I didn’t follow F1 all that closely in their years of dominance I am led to believe regulations also entrenched a horsepower advantage for them.
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2008
- Messages
- 5,926
- Location
- In Cider
Control ECU was brought in at the start of 2016 IIRC. Honda have won titles since then. I'm not buying that this is the sole reason for Honda issues.
So let em run their own ecu again then. It was supposedly to make GP racing less costly as the reason the spec ecu came in.
What a crock of .....
For example, Mercedes won the 2014 F1 title using a hydraulic ride-height regulator (basically a 2000-part hydraulic computer). Mercedes was allowed to keep this tech for the entire season – well done guys, clever job etc – but at the end of the year F1 banned ride-height regulators, for cost reasons.
This same technology arrived in MotoGP a few years ago – when Ducati introduced its ride-height device (designed by German engineer Robin Tuluie, who also created the Mercedes system) – and is still there, despite misgivings from many quarters. Why?
Change MotoGP’s tech rules? 'You may end up with the opposite of what you’re trying to achieve'
Many fans think MotoGP’s technical rules need changing, so Mat Oxley sat down with Dorna management to discuss lack of overtaking, downforce aero, ride-height devices, concessions, safety and much more
I can understand Honda being a bit pissed off. They can't run their own ecu and are expected to design a motor around the spec one (more cost) whilst ride height devices and aero rolls on which would be way more expensive by a factor a heaps.
In any case I don't see the Honda being more competitive anytime soon.
You don't go there with championship aspirations it would seem. Ask Marquez.
I agree. This is the issue with 'cost savings' and a spec series. In theory, they are cheaper, but the reality is they are not.
Lin Jarvis stated when the 5 engine rule came in, that Yamaha were spending more money sending their engines back to Japan for dyno runs (sometimes between races a week apart), it was costing more than just building new engines.
When you limit a formula so tightly (only 4 cylinders, 1000cc with 81mm bore which predacates your stroke), stock ECU (hardware and software). Then teams are going to start going down rabbit holes of aero and squat devices to get an edge.
Conveniently, the control ECU was supplied by Magnetti Marelli, who already worked with Ducati. From a 2015 article on the subject.
Finally, regarding Mercedes. Their 2014/2015 cars were not that good, but they had poured all their resources into the new engine regulations as they were not competitive towards the end of the V8 era so had a massive power advantage. Williams, who were minnows in the V8 era, suddenly got propelled to 3rd in the constructors, such was the engine advantage.
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2020
- Messages
- 984
- Location
- Bendigo Vic
Nobody is saying it is the sole reason. It is a reason. Along with aero and ride height.
The combination of reasons was enough for Marquez to forgo a shed load of money and leave early.
Given the significant cost to him, he was obviously of the opinion it ain't going to be competitive anytime soon.
The combination of reasons was enough for Marquez to forgo a shed load of money and leave early.
Given the significant cost to him, he was obviously of the opinion it ain't going to be competitive anytime soon.
Yes, that’s it. Honda have had time to design a new engine or whatever if that is what they need and if they haven’t that is their choice no doubt, but while Gigi probably is a genius that is not the only factor Imo, and circumstances did favour Ducati ie the control ECU being from their supplier and getting concessions to develop their bike just before an engine freeze; I am a little hazy on the latter but didn’t they freeze engine changes for several years ?, iirc at least partly due to the pandemic. They relied on MM’s talent successfully for a few years to overcome the limitations of their bike, but the other bikes have progressed partly by aero etc to which Honda is philosophically opposed, and they didn’t really have the original version of Marc Marquez anyway for 3 years. They did make some effort to acquire a rider who might assist sorting their bike in Jorge Lorenzo, who was cooked unfortunately. They did already have a very good development rider in Dani Pedrosa whom Puig who gave every appearance of being motivated by petty revenge fired however, so that is also on them
I am not saying Honda were deliberately screwed by Dorna, although Casey Stoner +/- Honda were imo in regard to the 2012 bike wearing my Stoner tragic hat, just expressing doubt in agreement with others concerning whether equalisation measures either save money or produce an equal field, an advantage can actually be entrenched by such measures Imo.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2023
- Messages
- 1,111
- Location
- Australia
Yes prior to the control ECU you couldn't win if you weren't in Factory Yamaha or Factory Honda teams. When the control ECU went in we saw riders in other teams get better results, it made for better racing as all teams had the same level of software.
Ultimately the teams have budgets and if they are prevented from spending in one area they will spend in other areas which has lead to aero spending
If would be good if the officials have a look at aero from what the impact is to following riders, one problem that is being encountered is that the front tyre of the following rider is heating up, I'm sure there's other problems.
I recall that 2021 had the 2020 engines, is that correct?
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2020
- Messages
- 984
- Location
- Bendigo Vic
During recent years Ducati has taken MotoGP into a whole new world, a bit like Adam and Eve eating the apple from the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden. Aprilia and KTM have enthusiastically followed Ducati, while Honda and Yamaha stand there, uncertain whether to eat that apple or noe a look at the latest factory bikes from Ducati, Aprilia and KTM. They look entirely different to how they looked half a decade ago. The Honda and Yamaha? Not so much.
Ducati and Aprilia have hired Ferrari Formula 1 aerodynamicists, while KTM now works with Red Bull Advanced Technologies, who create downforce aero for reigning F1 world champions, Red Bull. The Europeans are forging ahead, leaving their Japanese rivals far behind.
MotoGP aero tech has opened up a whole new world – for good or evil – where there is much to be learned and much to be gained: grip, most of all. Downforce aero now affect the development of every part of these motorcycles – engine, chassis, suspension, electronics, bodywork, brakes and tyres – because with more grip you can go more extreme in every direction.
This year’s race times prove where aero has taken MotoGP: Sunday’s race was nine seconds faster than four years ago, Mugello was 16 seconds quicker and Le Mans was 15 seconds faster.
Honda and Yamaha have made some vague nods in the direction of aero development, but they are already several years behind their rivals.
Nothing on the current RC213VS or Yamaha YZR-M1 suggests that either factory is thinking deeply about this area of technology, so that Márquez and Yamaha’s Fabio Quartararo are condemned to risking life and limb for top-ten finishes (if they’re lucky) until either their contracts expire, or their employers make some very big and very quick decisions. Many riders on the current grid agree that Márquez and Quartararo are MotoGP’s most talented riders, but that’s not enough anymore.
Today’s most advanced MotoGP bikes don’t really work like normal motorcycles. They don’t pitch into and out of corners like they used to, and they need to be ridden in a certain way to take advantage of the latest technology: downforce aero, ride-height devices and so on. Thus there is little chance for a rider to add his own little bit of magic, by riding around problems. Instead he must ride the machine the way his engineers tell him it needs to be ridden, like F1.
www.motorsportmagazine.com
VW, owners of Ducati, have bought in a lot of expertise from F1 it appears. KTM is doing similar. Honda and Yamaha don't appear to be. Certainly Honda isn't outspending VW. I am not and never have been a huge follower of F1 however I have noticed technology go through the roof in motoGP in recent years.
None of the F1 aero and ride height .... is applicable to a road going motorcycle but it certainly appears to help get a bike around a track fast when you have a team of specialised engineers applying it to a motorcycle.
(You could argue a programmable ecu is at least as applicable and probably more so.)
It is going to be a while until the Japanese factories are competitive again. Either they need their own team of ride height and aerodynamics engineers or that stuff needs to be gone from the bikes.
Ducati and Aprilia have hired Ferrari Formula 1 aerodynamicists, while KTM now works with Red Bull Advanced Technologies, who create downforce aero for reigning F1 world champions, Red Bull. The Europeans are forging ahead, leaving their Japanese rivals far behind.
MotoGP aero tech has opened up a whole new world – for good or evil – where there is much to be learned and much to be gained: grip, most of all. Downforce aero now affect the development of every part of these motorcycles – engine, chassis, suspension, electronics, bodywork, brakes and tyres – because with more grip you can go more extreme in every direction.
This year’s race times prove where aero has taken MotoGP: Sunday’s race was nine seconds faster than four years ago, Mugello was 16 seconds quicker and Le Mans was 15 seconds faster.
Honda and Yamaha have made some vague nods in the direction of aero development, but they are already several years behind their rivals.
Nothing on the current RC213VS or Yamaha YZR-M1 suggests that either factory is thinking deeply about this area of technology, so that Márquez and Yamaha’s Fabio Quartararo are condemned to risking life and limb for top-ten finishes (if they’re lucky) until either their contracts expire, or their employers make some very big and very quick decisions. Many riders on the current grid agree that Márquez and Quartararo are MotoGP’s most talented riders, but that’s not enough anymore.
Today’s most advanced MotoGP bikes don’t really work like normal motorcycles. They don’t pitch into and out of corners like they used to, and they need to be ridden in a certain way to take advantage of the latest technology: downforce aero, ride-height devices and so on. Thus there is little chance for a rider to add his own little bit of magic, by riding around problems. Instead he must ride the machine the way his engineers tell him it needs to be ridden, like F1.
Márquez is riding a MotoGP bike against two-wheel F1 cars
Marc Márquez endured a hellish weekend at Sachsenring while Ducati filled the first five places. And Sunday’s German GP was an historic event – the first time since 1969 that not one Japanese motorcycle made the top ten
www.motorsportmagazine.com
VW, owners of Ducati, have bought in a lot of expertise from F1 it appears. KTM is doing similar. Honda and Yamaha don't appear to be. Certainly Honda isn't outspending VW. I am not and never have been a huge follower of F1 however I have noticed technology go through the roof in motoGP in recent years.
None of the F1 aero and ride height .... is applicable to a road going motorcycle but it certainly appears to help get a bike around a track fast when you have a team of specialised engineers applying it to a motorcycle.
(You could argue a programmable ecu is at least as applicable and probably more so.)
It is going to be a while until the Japanese factories are competitive again. Either they need their own team of ride height and aerodynamics engineers or that stuff needs to be gone from the bikes.
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2015
- Messages
- 735
- Location
- Office cubicle
I think the engine development was frozen during those years, yes. But from 2016 to 2019 and after 2021 they were free to develop the engine. As it has been said, Honda (and Yamaha) had enough time to adapt to the spec ECU but they were sloppy on that front. Now they're behind on everything, electronics, aero and development approach. The current situation didn't develop in one day.
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2008
- Messages
- 5,926
- Location
- In Cider
I'm a huge JL99 fan but his skillset was different. He doesnt have the raw talent and adaptability Marc has imo.
2021 was basically 2020 bikes yes. Aero is also causing accidents when riders get sucked into a corner. Bezzechi at Silverstone this yr is a classic case of that.
Great post. Yes Sadly Honda are ..... at aero. Look how bad their last F1 car entry was? 2008.During recent years Ducati has taken MotoGP into a whole new world, a bit like Adam and Eve eating the apple from the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden. Aprilia and KTM have enthusiastically followed Ducati, while Honda and Yamaha stand there, uncertain whether to eat that apple or noe a look at the latest factory bikes from Ducati, Aprilia and KTM. They look entirely different to how they looked half a decade ago. The Honda and Yamaha? Not so much.
Ducati and Aprilia have hired Ferrari Formula 1 aerodynamicists, while KTM now works with Red Bull Advanced Technologies, who create downforce aero for reigning F1 world champions, Red Bull. The Europeans are forging ahead, leaving their Japanese rivals far behind.
MotoGP aero tech has opened up a whole new world – for good or evil – where there is much to be learned and much to be gained: grip, most of all. Downforce aero now affect the development of every part of these motorcycles – engine, chassis, suspension, electronics, bodywork, brakes and tyres – because with more grip you can go more extreme in every direction.
This year’s race times prove where aero has taken MotoGP: Sunday’s race was nine seconds faster than four years ago, Mugello was 16 seconds quicker and Le Mans was 15 seconds faster.
Honda and Yamaha have made some vague nods in the direction of aero development, but they are already several years behind their rivals.
Nothing on the current RC213VS or Yamaha YZR-M1 suggests that either factory is thinking deeply about this area of technology, so that Márquez and Yamaha’s Fabio Quartararo are condemned to risking life and limb for top-ten finishes (if they’re lucky) until either their contracts expire, or their employers make some very big and very quick decisions. Many riders on the current grid agree that Márquez and Quartararo are MotoGP’s most talented riders, but that’s not enough anymore.
Today’s most advanced MotoGP bikes don’t really work like normal motorcycles. They don’t pitch into and out of corners like they used to, and they need to be ridden in a certain way to take advantage of the latest technology: downforce aero, ride-height devices and so on. Thus there is little chance for a rider to add his own little bit of magic, by riding around problems. Instead he must ride the machine the way his engineers tell him it needs to be ridden, like F1.
Márquez is riding a MotoGP bike against two-wheel F1 cars
Marc Márquez endured a hellish weekend at Sachsenring while Ducati filled the first five places. And Sunday’s German GP was an historic event – the first time since 1969 that not one Japanese motorcycle made the top ten
VW, owners of Ducati, have bought in a lot of expertise from F1 it appears. KTM is doing similar. Honda and Yamaha don't appear to be. Certainly Honda isn't outspending VW. I am not and never have been a huge follower of F1 however I have noticed technology go through the roof in motoGP in recent years.
None of the F1 aero and ride height .... is applicable to a road going motorcycle but it certainly appears to help get a bike around a track fast when you have a team of specialised engineers applying it to a motorcycle.
(You could argue a programmable ecu is at least as applicable and probably more so.)
It is going to be a while until the Japanese factories are competitive again. Either they need their own team of ride height and aerodynamics engineers or that stuff needs to be gone from the bikes.
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2008
- Messages
- 5,926
- Location
- In Cider
Stoner says Marc is still 'the fastest rider' and that he would have left Honda too.
Stoner: Marquez ‘the fastest rider still’, but would he have left Honda too?
Stoner: Marquez ‘the fastest rider still’, but would he have left Honda too?
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2008
- Messages
- 1,208
- Location
- USA
Nothing Honda need to worry about. Take a look at VW losses in what is the worlds current largest auto buying market. Their EV's are regarded as .... in comparison the local BYD brand. So much so they have to cut the prices of their EV's in half and still cant move them over the BYD EV's. It is VW rubbish technology why they cant compete against the BYD cars. Sooner or later the VW group will have to prioritize their financial resources. Honda & Yamaha are still out selling all three European brands combined. They would be better off pulling out of motopeepee and sponsoring teams in regional markets where they sell the most.
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2008
- Messages
- 5,926
- Location
- In Cider
Completely different principles making things go up instead of down 
but I get your point.
If Honda feel that MotoGP has no relevance to their road bikes then why don't they just quit? It seems silly that they would waste millions of dollars a year on something they don't get any value from.
but I get your point.If Honda feel that MotoGP has no relevance to their road bikes then why don't they just quit? It seems silly that they would waste millions of dollars a year on something they don't get any value from.
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2020
- Messages
- 984
- Location
- Bendigo Vic
Honda corporation is a lot smaller than VW. Point is they ain't outspending VW on motoGP. Honda perhaps are smart enough not to see any market value in F1 technology such as aero and ride height on M/cycles.
I don't see any legacy auto maker outdoing the Chinese on electric vehicles. All are way behind.
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2023
- Messages
- 1,111
- Location
- Australia
Honda has a huge market in SE Asia selling millions of tiny motorbikes. MotoGP contributes to branding in SE Asia
Similar threads
