2013 Predictions

Dr No

3451391363001052

Any of you?

But what interests me is your response to the topic. To make it easier; I will be the first to agree about the exhilaration of close racing - stuffing it up the inside (fnarr), a well executed block pass......., if I had the talent and balls, I'd love to relate tales of derring-do - but Marquez has done some pretty ...... up things (Williarot was unforgivable...I saw that live and watched RW not move afterwards....Loris was my hero until his move on another hero (when he was on a TZ) Harada.)
Those are my cards. Yours?

Click to expand...

Capirossi on Harada was the most disgusting piece of riding I have ever seen. That was as cynical as you get. No attempt at a pass, just a straight torpedoing. Say what you will of Rossi, but his moves (Jerez on Gibernau, Laguna on Stoner) were meant to intimidate, not destroy. Gaps were used which were only just there. For what it's worth, I thought Rossi's move on Gibernau was a racing incident. Not gentlemanly, but clean.

I expect Marquez to be like Rossi. Prepared to snatch at anything offered to him, and willing to dive into a gap in the conviction he can make it through. He is willing to take a risk, something which riders have been avoiding for the past few years. That is what has made the racing less exciting.

As for Wilairot, Marquez' real blame there lay in obeying orders. He was told to go out and put in a fast lap, even though the flag had dropped. The responsibility is shared, betwen his team for ordering it, and Marquez for carrying it out.

Marquez vs Simoncelli is also interesting. In my view, Marquez is just the right side of the line, where Simoncelli was just the wrong side of the line, though the difference is small. The difference is in intent, I believe. Simoncelli took risks knowing he would always come out on top because of his physical size, Marquez does not see the risk.

I dont see why we are so on MMs case before a wheel has turned in motogp,yes he did some bad stuff in moto2 but give the boy a chance to grow before you write him off,Rossi has made a lot of bad physical and mental moves over a long period some of which could have proved a disaster but he seems to get away with it,when Stoner fired back he was condemed as a petulant child,i hope Rossi gets well and truly beaten so we can move on and look at the future.

Kropotkin

3451251362959667

 

For some reason, I don't watch SX on TV. Love riding off-road, but watching MX just doesn't do much for me.

 

I think there's a couple of differences, part of which have to do with technique, and part with attitude. In MX, being physical with your opponents is a viable tactic. If it doesn't work and you get bumped off the track, you lose time you can make up by pushing hard. You can never make up that time on a roadrace bike, because the time differentials are just there.

 

Secondly, and more importantly, there's a question of attitude. There are two kinds of physical riders: wrestlers and snipers (or nose tackles and strong safeties, if you prefer a football analogy). A wrestler will come after you and concentrate on running you over. Alex de Angelis is this kind of rider, Simoncelli was the same. Marquez is a sniper, like Rossi was. If he can see the shot, he'll take it, and the target never even knew what hit him.

 

I have joked with Dennis Noyes a few times about this. Noyes keeps saying "I wonder if there's anything wrong with Marquez' eyesight", and I keep telling him "there's nothing wrong with his eyesight, it's just that his opponents are invisible to him. He doesn't care where they are. He is utterly inconsiderate, rather than consciously reckless. This is what makes him exciting, and what will shake up the status quo.

Click to expand...

Wonder how that tactic will go on bikes that are fully committed through almost 100% of the corner. The 990's were custom made for the sniper tactic (which is a brilliant analogy by the way) the Rossi loved because they weren't committed in the corner the same. The Moto2 bikes also reward this style. I am not so sure about the 800's with 200cc more will reward it so much.

thedeal

3451421363003579

I dont see why we are so on MMs case before a wheel has turned in motogp,yes he did some bad stuff in moto2 but give the boy a chance to grow before you write him off,Rossi has made a lot of bad physical and mental moves over a long period some of which could have proved a disaster but he seems to get away with it,when Stoner fired back he was condemed as a petulant child,i hope Rossi gets well and truly beaten so we can move on and look at the future.

Click to expand...

I am with david concerning rossi except about the gibernau pass which I think was cynical and had no chance of being a legitimate pass on anything like a racing line. He may have been trying to intimidate stoner elsewhere at laguna seca 2008, if so probably within acceptable parameters for racing, but I think with the actual "corkscrew incident" his motive was purely not to come out of the corkscrew behind stoner.  Jerez 2011 was a mistake/riding error, if perhaps influenced by his and stoner's rivalry. Rossi must be close to being the safest rider in history given the length of his career and rarity of riding errors by him.


 


I agree the verdict is out on marquez, he is/was a teenager, and as david says he shouldn't have been sent out by his presumably professional team when the willairot incident occurred. If david is correct that he rides and will continue to ride as though there is no-one else on the track I don't think this is a good thing; then again I wasn't much of a senna fan.

I do not think MM is going to behave recklessly. He's not going to charge blindly through the strongest field of rivals he's ever met. He'll study them and wait for the right opportunity (which could happen quite early). Time is on his side anyway...

Dr No

3451391363001052

Any of you?


But what interests me is your response to the topic. To make it easier; I will be the first to agree about the exhilaration of close racing - stuffing it up the inside (fnarr), a well executed block pass......., if I had the talent and balls, I'd love to relate tales of derring-do - but Marquez has done some pretty ...... up things (Williarot was unforgivable...I saw that live and watched RW not move afterwards....Loris was my hero until his move on another hero (when he was on a TZ) Harada.)

Those are my cards. Yours?

Click to expand...

 


Lets me be more clear, my only motivation for hoping Krops assessment is correct in his prediction that Marc will dishing out similar riding tactics that Rossi is known for is NOT because I agree with the tactic, as I have argued its dirty and dangerous, but rather because I want Rossi to finally receive some of his own medicine.  See the difference?  Sure, you can argue its a double standard on my part, but I completely disagree with Kropo in saying Rossi was on the good side of the line of being a decent racer as oppose to those others who attacked indiscriminately with bad intentions.  I'm actually laughing at this assessment for its ridiculiousness.  Capirrossi, the worst person in the world for his torpedoing of Harada, BUT Rossi's torpedo on Sete was inside the acceptable line?  Hahaha, ....... ........ (I say this from the same place I would tell any friend I like)!  Absent an independent press release from the mind of the rider under the influence of a truth serum, this take is all ........).  Its obviously part of Krop's 2%.  Rossi's torpedo of Sete at Jerez was from the same bully place of his attempted torpedo of Casey at Laguna.  When a rider is conditioned by Race Direction that his dirty moves will not be santioned, rather encouraged, and universally applauded by most fans, experts, and officials, then you have a guy who rides with impunity like VR, and as MM did in Moto2.


 


Again, I hope MM dishes it out to VR as he did for many years NOT because I think its acceptable riding but rather because I want to see VR finally get back what he deserves.  Double standard?  Yes. ....'em.  You know why?  ....'em, that's why.

Jumkie

3451671363025256

Lets me be more clear, my only motivation for hoping Krops assessment is correct in his prediction that Marc will dishing out similar riding tactics that Rossi is known for is NOT because I agree with the tactic, as I have argued its dirty and dangerous, but rather because I want Rossi to finally receive some of his own medicine.  See the difference?  Sure, you can argue its a double standard on my part, but I completely disagree with Kropo in saying Rossi was on the good side of the line of being a decent racer as oppose to those others who attacked indiscriminately with bad intentions.  I'm actually laughing at this assessment for its ridiculiousness.  Capirrossi, the worst person in the world for his torpedoing of Harada, BUT Rossi's torpedo on Sete was inside the acceptable line?  Hahaha, ....... ........ (I say this from the same place I would tell any friend I like)!  Absent an independent press release from the mind of the rider under the influence of a truth serum, this take is all ........).  Its obviously part of Krop's 2%.  Rossi's torpedo of Sete at Jerez was from the same bully place of his attempted torpedo of Casey at Laguna.  When a rider is conditioned by Race Direction that his dirty moves will not be santioned, rather encouraged, and universally applauded by most fans, experts, and officials, then you have a guy who rides with impunity like VR, and as MM did in Moto2.


 


Again, I hope MM dishes it out to VR as he did for many years NOT because I think its acceptable riding but rather because I want to see VR finally get back what he deserves.  Double standard?  Yes. ....'em.  You know why?  ....'em, that's why.

Click to expand...

I don't wish ill to any rider, not on track at least. I do pretty much agree with you assesment of Rossi's riding, and the role the officials, fans and press in condoning and probably encouraging ...... riding.

"Lets me be more clear, my only motivation for hoping Krops assessment is correct in his prediction that Marc will dishing out similar riding tactics that Rossi is known for is NOT because I agree with the tactic, as I have argued its dirty and dangerous, but rather because I want Rossi to finally receive some of his own medicine.  See the difference?  Sure, you can argue its a double standard on my part, but I completely disagree with Kropo in saying Rossi was on the good side of the line of being a decent racer as oppose to those others who attacked indiscriminately with bad intentions.  I'm actually laughing at this assessment for its ridiculiousness.  Capirrossi, the worst person in the world for his torpedoing of Harada, BUT Rossi's torpedo on Sete was inside the acceptable line?  Hahaha, ....... ........ (I say this from the same place I would tell any friend I like)!  Absent an independent press release from the mind of the rider under the influence of a truth serum, this take is all ........).  Its obviously part of Krop's 2%.  Rossi's torpedo of Sete at Jerez was from the same bully place of his attempted torpedo of Casey at Laguna.  When a rider is conditioned by Race Direction that his dirty moves will not be santioned, rather encouraged, and universally applauded by most fans, experts, and officials, then you have a guy who rides with impunity like VR, and as MM did in Moto2.


 


Again, I hope MM dishes it out to VR as he did for many years NOT because I think its acceptable riding but rather because I want to see VR finally get back what he deserves.  Double standard?  Yes. ....'em.  You know why?  ....'em, that's why."


 


I like you jumkie object to the vilification/demonisation of anyone and everyone perceived to have thwarted valentino in any way, now extending to ducati and poor old presiozi for apparently letting him down.


 


I have a lot more concern about marquez's riding thus far than I have ever had about rossi's though. This is old ground, but I think the gibernau torpedo was the only out and out dirty move in his very long career. I watched that live with no horse in the race as it was prior to the detraction from/vilification of hayden and stoner in the wake of their world championships, and found it inexplicable, and don't consider it to have had any object other than to stop gibernau from winning the race by any means in the context of  the then current subtext between them. From my point of view stoner was highly entitled to be annoyed about being nearly torpedoed and actually torpedoed in the laguna seca 2008 and jerez 2011 incidents, but I don't think whilst they were rather desperate moves that they were in any way deliberate volitional torpedo attempts by rossi.


 


Some of mm's practice incidents for which he escaped censure were plain reckless imo, and pointless to boot, given they were in practice.  If he and rossi do go at it which marquez will be lucky to achieve in his first year imo I will perhaps see some irony if there are intense recriminations by either party or any supporters thereof.

Kropotkin

3451411363003338

Capirossi on Harada was the most disgusting piece of riding I have ever seen. That was as cynical as you get. No attempt at a pass, just a straight torpedoing. Say what you will of Rossi, but his moves (Jerez on Gibernau, Laguna on Stoner) were meant to intimidate, not destroy. Gaps were used which were only just there. For what it's worth, I thought Rossi's move on Gibernau was a racing incident. Not gentlemanly, but clean.


I expect Marquez to be like Rossi. Prepared to snatch at anything offered to him, and willing to dive into a gap in the conviction he can make it through. He is willing to take a risk, something which riders have been avoiding for the past few years. That is what has made the racing less exciting.


As for Wilairot, Marquez' real blame there lay in obeying orders. He was told to go out and put in a fast lap, even though the flag had dropped. The responsibility is shared, betwen his team for ordering it, and Marquez for carrying it out.


Marquez vs Simoncelli is also interesting. In my view, Marquez is just the right side of the line, where Simoncelli was just the wrong side of the line, though the difference is small. The difference is in intent, I believe. Simoncelli took risks knowing he would always come out on top because of his physical size, Marquez does not see the risk.

Click to expand...

 


I see it the other way around. Simmo, with all due respect (RIP) was perhaps not too bright. His emotions ruled his head.


 


Marquez appears an intelligent kid. Knows exactly what he is doing, just like Rossi there is an arrogant sense of entitlement: this sport belongs to me. That is my problem, not so much with him specifically, but the governance of the sport. In reality it is nothing different from WWE where the wrestler grabs the metal chair and slams it on the head of an opponent while the referee convienently looks the other way. This sort of thing was kind of entertaining to me as a kid, like a roadrunner cartoon, now not so much. But BeiberGP sells I guess, even you are hooked, so why bother fighting it.


 


I hope the cursed electronics dont ruin the show. As Mental says I also have doubts there will be many opportunities for passing, unless of course Marquez has some sort of advantage, like a super throttle hand or else just a couple extra litres of fuel. Not in a cheating kind of way, just exploiting DORNAS rule number 131b: Marquez shall be allowed an extra 2 litres of fuel and a metal chair to slam on the head of his opponents on the proviso he delivers exciting last to first place racing.

Bieber GP!


Ha ha ha fcuking luv it!  :lol:

:lol: Bird, enjoyed ur post. Haha. Totally agree about Sic vs VR/MM. Sic may have been dangerous, not any more/less than VR/MM; and for damn sure not as calculated as a sniper (good analogy Krops). Sic rode all heart no brain to win, VR rides all cunningly dirty no respect to win. BIG ....... difference.

1. Mike, dont let ur admirable traits of decent and faith in man betray u, only reason there wasnt a torpedo to speak of at Laguns 08 was all because CS took evasive action (also see Catalunya 09 JL). There was every bit of intension to disrupt CS, as it was the only way VR knew he could challenge that day. This was a plan hatched way before the race that weekend.

2. Stief, my take should not be interpreted that i want VR to get hurt. No sir. I just want him slapped around some. And if that bitchslap comes from one snot nosed kid named Marquez who has "seeing problems" (another gem, thanx Krops) than more power to him. Go Marky!

Kropotkin

3451411363003338

Capirossi on Harada was the most disgusting piece of riding I have ever seen. That was as cynical as you get. No attempt at a pass, just a straight torpedoing. Say what you will of Rossi, but his moves (Jerez on Gibernau, Laguna on Stoner) were meant to intimidate, not destroy. Gaps were used which were only just there. For what it's worth, I thought Rossi's move on Gibernau was a racing incident. Not gentlemanly, but clean.


I expect Marquez to be like Rossi. Prepared to snatch at anything offered to him, and willing to dive into a gap in the conviction he can make it through. He is willing to take a risk, something which riders have been avoiding for the past few years. That is what has made the racing less exciting.


As for Wilairot, Marquez' real blame there lay in obeying orders. He was told to go out and put in a fast lap, even though the flag had dropped. The responsibility is shared, betwen his team for ordering it, and Marquez for carrying it out.


Marquez vs Simoncelli is also interesting. In my view, Marquez is just the right side of the line, where Simoncelli was just the wrong side of the line, though the difference is small. The difference is in intent, I believe. Simoncelli took risks knowing he would always come out on top because of his physical size, Marquez does not see the risk.

Click to expand...

Thanks, Krop.


 


On VR v SG. I disagree. It was a calculated straight punt. Proper calculated, with out-clauses and plausible deniability. Unlike effing Capirossi's uncalculated punt.


 


On MM, I agree with him just not seeing other riders as riders just obstacles. That Valencia 2012 footage demonstrates it to a tee.


 


On the MM v SM thing, I completely agree.


 


On the MM v RW thing, I don't. Yes, his team sent him out with insufficient time to record a flying lap. It was FP1, not QP. No excuses. He saw the flag, and you get herded straight down to the pit access road just before T12. He was never going to get a flying lap - though T3 after a chequer's thrown? o rly?. He can tie his own shoelaces (I've seen him do it) he can work that .... out. Obeying orders....no. There's no excuse here. ( And seriously, I don't want to go further in reprising that discussion, we can just agree to disagree)

Dr No

3452141363059046

Thanks, Krop.


 


On VR v SG. I disagree. It was a calculated straight punt. Proper calculated, with out-clauses and plausible deniability. Unlike effing Capirossi's uncalculated punt.

Click to expand...

 


I too see more signs of deliberate malice on display at Jerez.  IMO, VR's initial dive-bomb is not the main issue.  It was desperate, crude, and somewhat unsafe, but not a deliberate attempt to 'take out' Gibbers.  What followed, in the seconds after the initial bump, is entirely different.  As I interpret the video, once VR stabilized his bike, he quite consciously (and with possible premeditation) neatly matched SG's speed and track position and deliberately 'herded' him off into the weeds.  Once SG was off, Rossi tightened his line, finished the corner, and continued on to receive his Hero's Welcome.  In that light, I see Rossi's tactics as utterly cynical and disgusting.

Geonerd

3452171363066576

 

I too see more signs of deliberate malice on display at Jerez.  IMO, VR's initial dive-bomb is not the main issue.  It was desperate, crude, and somewhat unsafe, but not a deliberate attempt to 'take out' Gibbers.  What followed, in the seconds after the initial bump, is entirely different.  As I interpret the video, once VR stabilized his bike, he quite consciously (and with possible premeditation) neatly matched SG's speed and track position and deliberately 'herded' him off into the weeds.  Once SG was off, Rossi tightened his line, finished the corner, and continued on to receive his Hero's Welcome.  In that light, I see Rossi's tactics as utterly cynical and disgusting.

Click to expand...

That is exactly how I see that pass, from the front shot you can see that Sete had left a gap, a big gap. & It's the running him wide that is the naughty part, I'm sure I said this before. Not sure he had a heroes welcome though, seem to remember a lot of booing.


[Youtube][/MEDIA]

Goatboy

3452221363074470

That is exactly how I see that pass, from the front shot you can see that Sete had left a gap, a big gap. & It's the running him wide that is the naughty part, I'm sure I said this before. Not sure he had a heroes welcome though, seem to remember a lot of booing.


[Youtube][/MEDIA]

Click to expand...

I was going to say it was as good an explanation of that incident as I have heard as well. I don't think valentino was ever going to make that corner at that speed on anything like a racing line whatever transpired though, gap or not.


 


Corkscrew 2008 valentino's choices after somewhat overcooking it were to do what he did, put the bike down and take out stoner anyway, or go down the hill into the fence. I am not sure how many of those who criticised stoner so vehemently would have been exactly chuffed had they been in his position though.

michaelm

3452251363083756

I was going to say it was as good an explanation of that incident as I have heard as well. I don't think valentino was ever going to make that corner at that speed on anything like a racing line whatever transpired though, gap or not.


 


Corkscrew 2008 valentino's choices after somewhat overcooking it were to do what he did, put the bike down and take out stoner anyway, or go down the hill into the fence. I am not sure how many of those who criticised stoner so vehemently would have been exactly chuffed had they been in his position though.

Click to expand...

Well let's face it, you probably shouldn't be out their if you're happy about being passed!

Goatboy

3452281363084775

Well let's face it, you probably shouldn't be out their if you're happy about being passed!

Click to expand...

I meant the near torpedo requiring rapid evasive action as you no doubt realised, although I agree he wouldn't have been chuffed about not coming out of the corkscrew in front whatever method had been employed.

thedeal

3449151362752312

its written above try reading the page you ....... .....

Click to expand...

danm... i don't have time to read ALL the drivel!

Just checked my posts. Its in the 2013 predictions thread. Red and i, i'm on a Duke to beat a satellite Honda.


 


At the moment Dovi doing the job against Bautista.


Will be interesting come end of year, surely the dukes won't improve too much but Bautista and Bradl will be picking up points.

barbedwirebiker

3522271369553891

Just checked my posts. Its in the 2013 predictions thread. Red and i, i'm on a Duke to beat a satellite Honda.


 


At the moment Dovi doing the job against Bautista.


Will be interesting come end of year, surely the dukes won't improve too much but Bautista and Bradl will be picking up points.

Click to expand...

 


Thank Fcuk for that I somehow had it in my head it was over just a single race not the season.


I honestly couldn't remember the bet but knew I had one some where.


Good to see you back BWB