Mike oozed natural ability, he admitted himself he knew very little about bikes but he could ride them ANY of them fast, the outright lap record he set on the Isle of Man in 1967 stood for about 10 years.
You must be hard to please if you don't consider Ago, Redman and Read amongst the worlds best riders.
Besides regardless of being the son of a wealthy man, money doesn't buy talent. If that was the case Karel Abraham would be the greatest of all time by now.:unsure:
I agree that stats is not necessary the best benchmark except if you compare them with their team mates only. As to who is the GOAT I still believe there is no real gray area in that definition of what that means, to me, if one stays within the same racing discipline i.e. road racing, motocross, trial, etc. I think it is the person who is the fastest and the most efficient with the equipment given to them. For instance, going to F1 because I a bit more familiar with it, I consider Fernando Alonso one of the all time greats because of his record against some pretty good team mates who he left in the dust (except Lewis Hamilton) who also is one of the GOATs.
Joined Mar 2015
2K Posts | 337+
Chertsey, Surrey, UK
Well apart from the obvious, its a generational thing to me, ie it changes every 25-30 years regardless of held previously so if you apply that rule at a 25 year gap our current one is 1993 to 2018 then Marquez leads by a M1 (motorway) distance.
1968 to 1993 Then yes its Mike Hailwood for me.
1943 to 1968 Giacomo Agostini.
There have been many notable riders all across the years but these are IMO the stand out guys, the GOATS as you might put it.
I am not disagreeing with you but don't you think a span of 25-30 years is too long? Under normal circumstances that is two generations of riders who do not ride against each other and the technology and riding techniques change as well. Wouldn't a 10 to 15 year time span be a bit more reasonable? I will not rate riders as I don't know past riders very well.
Rossi was generally and not unreasonably considered the GOAT at the end of the 2009 season after the 7th/9th title, even by some current naysayers such as me, having mastered all bikes and classes he had encountered.
If he had retired then it would be arguable whether MM has surpassed or will surpass him. I think with the Ducati adventure and 9 fruitless seasons it is hard to see him as the GOAT now, somewhat unfairly in the latter case given he encountered MM in his youthful prime after all his own great achievements. His choice however, and if and more likely when MM matches or surpasses him for title wins it is hard for me to see how MM can fail to be rated ahead of him unless he proceeds to something similar to Rossi's tenure at Ducati, he is now the one who has succeeded on every bike in every class.
If he had retired then it would be arguable whether MM has surpassed or will surpass him. I think with the Ducati adventure and 9 fruitless seasons it is hard to see him as the GOAT now, somewhat unfairly in the latter case given he encountered MM in his youthful prime after all his own great achievements. His choice however, and if and more likely when MM matches or surpasses him for title wins it is hard for me to see how MM can fail to be rated ahead of him unless he proceeds to something similar to Rossi's tenure at Ducati, he is now the one who has succeeded on every bike in every class.
Joined Jun 2007
10K Posts | 1K+
Norah Head
Many came to Aus. to test themselves against guys that would never have bothered to travel to enter a "world championship" back then. Surtees came for fun and was competitive in classic racing. Ago gave it a good shot. But Hailwood was "meh".
Saw Hailwood in oerson and he was not that competitive.
Mind you he was on a Duc. Lol.
Joined May 2014
159 Posts | 43+
S. Florida
ok First of all it is next to near impossible to compare a person in any sport from one era to another. very simply stated you cant compare jim brown to say barry sanders. the game was totally different and so were the athletes. jim brown was as big as defensive lineman back then. today would he fair the same most people doubt it.
the way to do it is not compare each others stats to the competition of the era and see how they dominated that era.
for example you wouldnt compare joe dimagio to ken griffey jr. you would compare dimagio to say ted williams and see by how much they dominated their own era and compare griffey to his.
imo thats the best way to do it. that being said i always think the more current athlete makes advances over the previous one. its a given technology and training and competition are just better. the goat right now is Marc Marquez end of story.
the way to do it is not compare each others stats to the competition of the era and see how they dominated that era.
for example you wouldnt compare joe dimagio to ken griffey jr. you would compare dimagio to say ted williams and see by how much they dominated their own era and compare griffey to his.
imo thats the best way to do it. that being said i always think the more current athlete makes advances over the previous one. its a given technology and training and competition are just better. the goat right now is Marc Marquez end of story.
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The best rider I ever saw was Mike Hailwood. He won in every class, on any bike, on every circuit. He normally won head to head with Agostini. (Ago won several of his championships when the major factories had retired from racing and he has a works MV. I remember the 1973 Ulster Grand Prix, when the rest had Manx Nortons and I had a home built Suzuki. Ago stayed with us a little while, then disappeared with his 30 hp more).
Mike went to cars, F1, and was fighting for the championship when he stopped to pull another driver from a burning car. Lost his chance of the championship, but won a George medal.
Retired, he was called by Ducati to ride in the Isle of Man. Won every race and broke records.
Take away electronics and traction control and which of the modern riders would survive a race on the IOM? The only one who impresses me is Marquez, but he falls off a lot, not advisable on a real circuit.
Mike went to cars, F1, and was fighting for the championship when he stopped to pull another driver from a burning car. Lost his chance of the championship, but won a George medal.
Retired, he was called by Ducati to ride in the Isle of Man. Won every race and broke records.
Take away electronics and traction control and which of the modern riders would survive a race on the IOM? The only one who impresses me is Marquez, but he falls off a lot, not advisable on a real circuit.
Agreed but for motorsports it is a bit flawed as you would need to factor in how much better their equipment is. In other sports where the human is the equipment or the equipment isn't very different from competitor to competitor this is indeed way to assess the area GOAT. For example in F1 if you drive a Mercedes you will win if you have a Honda you will not yet the driver in the Honda can be 100x better than the Mercedes driver.
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Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Jim Brown was as big as a lot of d lineman in those days, but what separated him was the speed and agility he had over those guys his same size. He was the first powerback who could run away from db’s. Dude was a ....... monster.
Joined May 2014
159 Posts | 43+
S. Florida
yes he was and he also lettered in 5 sports. probably the best pure athlete ever.
my point however is the lineman and linebackers now are just as agile as he was back then. he would not have the advantage on todays players thus a different outcome. the lineman are way bigger and linebackers may be faster than he was back then. game is just different
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
He would be Herschel or Bo in today’s game . 230-240 pound running backs with 4.3- 4.4 speed would do well in any era and he ran with more wreckless abandon than either of them.
Joined May 2014
159 Posts | 43+
S. Florida
JB is in the hall of fame walker created the dallas dynasty and did nothing for MN and bo could have been great but did nothing unless you used bo in techmo bowl. im not saying JB wouldnt have been great but he wouldnt have dominated like he did back then.
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Pull up some video. As a DB or even a linebacker , taking him head on was what they call a “ business decision”. He would run thru you, over you, or around you depending on how committed you were to tackle him.
Joined Mar 2015
2K Posts | 337+
Chertsey, Surrey, UK
Sorry I cannot agree about humans in sport as being comparable, especially in most sports where the abuse of illegal substances is rife, everytime I watch anything like the Olympics and its winners, my mind automatically screams Junkie.
True, but then there is no way to make the GOAT assessment in any sport.
