2012 Jerez Test Thread

[Mr Squiggle]

How is that logical?

Because his results have deteriorated since he has competed against the new gen of riders....or are you denying this?



Before: 5 titles in a row against the previous generation of riders (Biaggi, Checa etc etc)



Now: 2 titles from 6 against the current competition.....(Jlo, Stoner etc)



Therefore the only LOGICAL conclusion you can draw is that his abilities have either diminished (I personally dont accept this as a reason) or the competition is better - which is what MOST people would agree is the reason for his downward slide. Pretty simple concept to grasp I would have thought.....and you dont even need to be a genius to see that this logic has its merits.....



Why you would see this as trying to "belittle" Rossis achievements is beyond me. He himself has stated on numerous occasions that Stoner is the hardest competition he has faced. This is also backed up statistically but you continue to ignore the FACTS!!!!

 

[birdman]

How is that logical?





in 2006 the competition was virtually the same as 2004 and all of the 990cc era, which is exactly why the credibility argument of that era is fundamentally flawed. Bar the rookies who didn't really have a impact at all on the title chase-except negatively for Nicky......!



In 2007 the argument still rages over which bike and certainly tyres were the best........many believe that the Japanese were clearly outsmarted by Ducati that year. And Bridgestone won the tyre war through the supply reg



In 2008, Rossi won the title against the current competition



In 2009, Rossi won the title against the current competition



In 2010, Rossi tore his shoulder and compound fractured his leg missing 4 rounds and turning up to 3 more on crutches. Which means he spent nearly half of the season uncompetitive or not there at all and still came 3rd



In 2011 Rossi was on the worst bike in the series.









IMO Rossi has aged of course, but that does not mean he has lost his talent, (maybe a loss of hunger but farck me 15 years at the top with 9 world titles- its amazing he is still there at all) Nor does it make the competition stronger now, nor does it mean his competition was weak in the 990 era, factor in ridiculous Honda inspired regulation and the electronics age over this period and the 'grey' area keeps getting larger......try again genius

2006 - same competition? Discounting Pedrosa, Stoner, Elias.

Pedrosa wins two races in his rookie season, whereas the year before on the same bike Biaggi promised much but delivered 0. Biaggi, the main competitor of years past was actually gone by 06. Poor old Gibber was riding cursed in 06, 0 wins. Without either, some have theorized Honda was forced to throw some support towards Hayden, and well the rest is history. Definitely not the same as 04 then.



2007 - excuses,

2010 - excuses, (fair enough, any injured riders in 2008, 2009 by any chance?)

2011 - excuses,

 

[digger]

This is ....... ridiculous......

 

[Goatboy]

This is ....... ridiculous......

It's getting a bit crash.net ain't it.

 

[digger]

I'm all for having a favourite rider, I'm unashamedly a Rossi man, but this trying to take away wc's off ANYONE is ........ and reeks of little kids arguing in the playground.

 

[Mr Squiggle]

I'm all for having a favourite rider, I'm unashamedly a Rossi man, but this trying to take away wc's off ANYONE is ........ and reeks of little kids arguing in the playground.

I am certainly NOT attempting to discredit ANY of Rossis championships....but his results HAVE gone backwards since 2006 in every single relevant statistic (Titles, Wins, Poles, Fastest laps and podiums). That is an indisputable fact and you can look it up for yourself. Talpas post cites "opinion as fact" and therein lies the difference.



So either the riders competing against Rossi are better....or he has lost some of his skill - you cannot have it BOTH ways I am afraid. Which is what Talpa is suggesting.



So if I am wrong, would you be so kind as to point out the flaw in my logic and set me straight on this point as I am curious to what other possible explanation there could be for his deteriorating results.....thanks.

 

[digger]

I wasn't pointing a finger mate, just a generalization of .... that's been going on in here lately.

 

[Mr Squiggle]

I wasn't pointing a finger mate, just a generalization of .... that's been going on in here lately.

No dramas - it does get tiresome I agree...but just out of curiosity what is your take on this?



I firmly believe these new guys are incredible riders and are at or above Rossi's skill level. When Rossi was winning one world title after another he was quite simply better than his rivals and he won with ease....same as when Doohan won 5 in a row - his rivals were not at his level but that doesnt belittle any of Micks titles... so I dont see why it should detract from Valentinos.

 

[digger]

Sure I agree, the competition is higher now days for sure, I would never think otherwise. What ..... me is saying, or inferring that riders of the past generation were .......... They were the guys at the top of their game, and I bet that very few people thought back then that they didn't deserve to be in gp.



Again, not pointing fingers in any direction in particular.

 

[Mr Squiggle]

Sure I agree, the competition is higher now days for sure, I would never think otherwise. What ..... me is saying, or inferring that riders of the past generation were .......... They were the guys at the top of their game, and I bet that very few people thought back then that they didn't deserve to be in gp.



Again, not pointing fingers in any direction in particular.

Couldnt agree more. No one EVER questioned a riders title or his worthiness as a champion until very recently. This phenomenom really only began to rear its ugly head around the end of 2006....go figure.

 

[digger]

I know a lot of people have questioned kjr's championship, but .... me, the bloke turned up and rode his best, and got a wc for his troubles. Same goes for Hayden too I guess. The way it is won shouldn't make a scrap of difference.

 

[Mr Squiggle]

I know a lot of people have questioned kjr's championship, but .... me, the bloke turned up and rode his best, and got a wc for his troubles. Same goes for Hayden too I guess. The way it is won shouldn't make a scrap of difference.

Whats more Junior won it on a zook....say no more.

 

[digger]

Haha, indeed

 

[Gaz]

I know a lot of people have questioned kjr's championship, but .... me, the bloke turned up and rode his best, and got a wc for his troubles. Same goes for Hayden too I guess. The way it is won shouldn't make a scrap of difference.

The unfortunate aspect is that (again all IMO here) many people question the worthiness of a 'single time' champion as they seem to look for excuses for other's faiings rather that the best, most consistent rider won the title for the year (after all, a championship is about consistency).



As another example, Alex Criville has also had his questioned although far less in terms of profile as the intrenet now allows far more communication and discussion

 

[digger]

That's right. How would people have spoken about randy mamola had he been able to pick up a few more points and win a wc. His certainly wouldn't have been a dominating championship, yet people sing his praises today. I wonder had he bagged one if he would have been one if these "lucky" wc's?

 

[birdman]

This is ....... ridiculous......

Hey I was having fun with Talpa, why get grumpy? There was nothing nasty going on, no insults or nothing, I didn't get a warning. Aren't these sites dependent on banta. Talpa was doing ok too, I might need some of those arguments he used one day when a certain rider I know is getting whipped by the next generation new guy on the block.



As a Biaggi fan I rigorously defend my right to search high and low for any sign of hope that he may have won a championship there somewhere but it was simply missed or covered up somehow, and given to Rossi by mistake.

 

[michaelm]

Whats more Junior won it on a zook....say no more.

Absolutely. Particularly winning on a suzuki. He damn near won a race in 2006 which would have been as extraordinary. He beat alex criville and valentino rossi on hondas in 2000, although his father is the only one to win a world title in his rookie year in the modern era afaik, a feat valentino would have had to match to win the title that year. Valentino then of course beat 2 premier class world champions, criville and krjr, in 2001.

 

[Mr Squiggle]

Absolutely. Particularly winning on a suzuki. He damn near won a race in 2006 which would have been as extraordinary. He beat alex criville and valentino rossi on hondas in 2000, although his father is the only one to win a world title in his rookie year in the modern era afaik, a feat valentino would have had to match to win the title that year. Valentino then of course beat 2 premier class world champions, criville and krjr, in 2001.

2000 was a vintage year with 8 different riders winning races during the season...and who could forget McCoys spectacular win at the opening round in Welkom that year that ranks as one of the most enjoyable and memorable wins in the entire time I have been watching GP's.



KRJr deserved that title as much as any past champion....he had also been victorious the previous year at the first two races beating Doohan in atrocious conditions at Motegi (a standout ride IMO). Mick was desperate to claw back some points at Jerez and get himself back in the hunt for the title....we all know what happened next.

 

[Mick D]

So either the riders competing against Rossi are better....or he has lost some of his skill - you cannot have it BOTH ways I am afraid. Which is what Talpa is suggesting.



So if I am wrong, would you be so kind as to point out the flaw in my logic and set me straight on this point as I am curious to what other possible explanation there could be for his deteriorating results.....thanks.

Yeah, I can explain it. The world, she not black and white mon ami. The answer you are looking for (which I believe I posted earlier in this thread but I'm buggered to look it up) is: a little from column A and a little from column B. Jorge, Casey and Pedders are, as a group, probably, better competition than Biaggi, Checa, Gibernau, Barros, AND Vale, as is expected with age, is losing a little of the drive, reflex, magic - whatever. See, the flaw in your logic is we live in a world of many shades - not B&W!

 

[Goatboy]

Yeah, I can explain it. The world, she not black and white mon ami. The answer you are looking for (which I believe I posted earlier in this thread but I'm buggered to look it up) is: a little from column A and a little from column B. Jorge, Casey and Pedders are, as a group, probably, better competition than Biaggi, Checa, Gibernau, Barros, AND Vale, as is expected with age, is losing a little of the drive, reflex, magic - whatever. See, the flaw in your logic is we live in a world of many shades - not B&W!