2012 Jerez Test Thread

[michaelm]

Yamak - once you've "contrived to at least add some passing to the mix" you're in for a penny, in for a pound - the whole race is contrived. Remember - contrive |kənˈtrīv|verb [ trans. ] - create or bring about (an object or a situation) by deliberate use of skill and artifice...

I don't have a problem either with how rossi raced or how stoner raced/races ; both were constrained to some extent by their equipment, tyres etc . Valentino didn't like pushing hard early until his tyres were warmed up and was a master of preserving tyres/riding on wearing tyres at the end of races with the then tyre technology. That he could make up the 10 seconds at PI when presumably rather motivated did reflect his talent but doesn't mean he could have done it reliably in every race. If he also liked to challenge himself that is fine with me also; I remember mick doohan crashing with a 5 or 10 second lead, also at PI. If some of it was to put on a show that is fine with me as well.



This doesn't mean it is reprehensible for stoner to ride differently though, particularly because his options were limited by the characteristics of the ducati when he was on that bike.

 

[Mick D]

I don't disagree michael. In fact having Casey and Jorge and their styles showcased is a bonus and a breath of fresh air - as Vale was at the end of the Doohan era. The one point I may question was Rossi's style... I found he DID push hard very early then sat in the rocking chair for the middle 3/4 of the race, then wicked it up again at the end...

 

[yamaka46]

Yamak - once you've "contrived to at least add some passing to the mix" you're in for a penny, in for a pound - the whole race is contrived. Remember - contrive |kənˈtrīv|verb [ trans. ] - create or bring about (an object or a situation) by deliberate use of skill and artifice...

The whole race being contrived would need to be brought about by the organisers, not one rider trying to add interest to his own 3/4hr on track. His race (as opposed to the race) will only involve close proximity and passing with a select few riders. How does this make the race of the guy in 10th contrived? It doesn't. Adding "passing to the mix" by one rider cannot make the whole race contrived.



To look more closely at your definition "create or bring about (an object or a situation) by deliberate use of skill and artifice"; surely winning a race fits those terms. As does coming 2nd etc. This is because your definition is of the verb "contrive" which was what I was trying to say - the verb can be used to describe these races, not the adjective.



This discussion has mostly been, IMO, about the adjective "contrived" |kənˈtrʌɪvd| adj - deliberately created rather than arising naturally or spontaneously....



BTW, michaelm - I also have no problem with Stoner's approach to winning, or any other rider's approach either, I was simply pointing out that the approach of Rossi, and Doohan before him, to have the skill to add extra fun for themselves during some of the races did not make the racing contrived.

 

[BarryMachine]

BTW, michaelm - I also have no problem with Stoner's approach to winning, or any other rider's approach either, I was simply pointing out that the approach of Rossi, and Doohan before him, to have the skill to add extra fun for themselves during some of the races did not make the racing contrived.

This is really more of a poor indictment of Rossi's former foes ( Gib/Capi etc. ) he would never be able to afford to play around with the likes of Pedro, Lorenzo and Stoner. Even at what you folk call his prime.

 

[yamaka46]

This is really more of a poor indictment of Rossi's former foes ( Gib/Capi etc. ) he would never be able to afford to play around with the likes of Pedro, Lorenzo and Stoner. Even at what you folk call his prime.

I was not discussing the quality of previous/current opposition, rather the bizarre concept that the racing was contrived because one rider (not just Rossi) dominated a particular era to the extent they could play around some of the time.



However, I'm unsure how anyone can be certain that if Pedro, Lorenzo & Stoner had been there in 2001 - 2005 (on competive machinery) they would have been as close to/better than (dependent on year) Rossi as they have been, or competitive with Biaggi & Gibernau.



This is back to the problem with the concept of one GOAT. No-one can be sure how competitve Rossi or Stoner (or Doohan, or Rainey, or whoever) would have been against either Hailwood/Agostini in their respective primes (on bikes of either era) any more than your scenario.



We can make educated guesses, but cannot be sure.

 

[Mental Anarchist]

I was not discussing the quality of previous/current opposition, rather the bizarre concept that the racing was contrived because one rider (not just Rossi) dominated a particular era to the extent they could play around some of the time.







However, I'm unsure how anyone can be certain that if Pedro, Lorenzo & Stoner had been there in 2001 - 2005 (on competive machinery) they would have been as close to/better than (dependent on year) Rossi as they have been, or competitive with Biaggi & Gibernau.







This is back to the problem with the concept of one GOAT. No-one can be sure how competitve Rossi or Stoner (or Doohan, or Rainey, or whoever) would have been against either Hailwood/Agostini in their respective primes (on bikes of either era) any more than your scenario.







We can make educated guesses, but cannot be sure.

Surely it is a similar assumption to suggest that Rossi would have been the champion he was had he been against Stoner, Lorenzo and Pedrosa in 2001-05. Rossi's status was built against the riders at the time. You are making a big assumption that Rossi would have that same status now had the competition been made up of todays riders. I can just as confidently assume that Rossi would not have 7 premier class WC's if he had of competed against Stoner Lorenzo and Pedrosa for a decade. In fact I think my assumption has more weight on the basis of the actual head to head being Rossi 2 Stoner 2 Lorenzo 1. Perhaps we would today be talking about Stoner the 7xWC and Rossi would be just another rider with 1 or 2 WC's.

 

[yamaka46]

Surely it is a similar assumption to suggest that Rossi would have been the champion he was had he been against Stoner, Lorenzo and Pedrosa in 2001-05. Rossi's status was built against the riders at the time. You are making a big assumption that Rossi would have that same status now had the competition been made up of todays riders. I can just as confidently assume that Rossi would not have 7 premier class WC's if he had of competed against Stoner Lorenzo and Pedrosa for a decade. In fact I think my assumption has more weight on the basis of the actual head to head being Rossi 2 Stoner 2 Lorenzo 1. Perhaps we would today be talking about Stoner the 7xWC and Rossi would be just another rider with 1 or 2 WC's.

I think that you've seen my avatar and failed to read and comprehend. I pointed out that no-one could be certain of the results of pitting riders of differing eras on competitive bikes. This was not even my dog in the fight. I was discussing "contrived" races.



Barry said he was certain that Rossi couldn't have played the games he did in 2001 - 2003. I said that I was certain that no-one could accurately predict what would happen in a hypothetical scenario.



I did not limit it to Rossi or state that his results would have been better or worse. He may have had less than 7 or maybe more. It's all theoretical FFS.

 

[BarryMachine]

Certain is your word Yamaka, not mine.



I think you are failing to accept what occurs in this forum, or any for that matter.



Your post is as subjective as mine, yet why did you post it?



I think you are just playing a silly game with words again.

 

[yamaka46]

Certain is your word Yamaka, not mine.



I think you are failing to accept what occurs in this forum, or any for that matter.



Your post is as subjective as mine, yet why did you post it?



I think you are just playing a silly game with words again.

Your word was never. Show me a context where never is not a certainty.



What occurs in a forum is banter and idea sharing, n'est pas?

 

[BarryMachine]

What occurs in a forum is banter and idea sharing, n'est pas?

Yes ....... wish you would have thought of that befroewe had to chop another tree down to power the electrons for your post!!

 

[yamaka46]

Yes ....... wish you would have thought of that befroewe had to chop another tree down to power the electrons for your post!!

Says the guy with 6003 posts since 27/07/2007 to my 1275 since 02/09/2007

 

[basspete]

I don't disagree michael. In fact having Casey and Jorge and their styles showcased is a bonus and a breath of fresh air - as Vale was at the end of the Doohan era. The one point I may question was Rossi's style... I found he DID push hard very early then sat in the rocking chair for the middle 3/4 of the race, then wicked it up again at the end...

Why are you questioning Rossi's style? Is it not the style that won you all your world titles?



Ho;y ....

 

[BarryMachine]

Why are you questioning Rossi's style? it Is no style that won you all our Euro titles?



Ho;y ....

I'd agree with that.





oh and keep what you get up to with the pope to yourself can you!

 

[Mick D]

1. Why are you questioning Rossi's style?



2. Is it not the style that won you all your world titles?

1. You may have misunderstood pete... the style I was replying to was the contention that Rossi (in the 990 era) didn't push 'til the end. I believe he pushed early AND late but was very conservative mid-race.



2. Unless I missed something I have yet to win any world titles!!!!

 

[basspete]

1. You may have misunderstood pete... the style I was replying to was the contention that Rossi (in the 990 era) didn't push 'til the end. I believe he pushed early AND late but was very conservative mid-race.



2. Unless I missed something I have yet to win any world titles!!!!

Gotcha!