I agree about the equipment thing in general, as I have said recently stoner might have remained equivalent to randy de puniet had he never got his break on a factory bike. It applies to wsbk even more so though, as some animals are definitely more equal than others there. I also think riders like hayden, spies, edwards when he was younger who were brought up on/were particularly suited to superbikes might have different relativity to current motogp riders on superbikes as you imply. People like biaggi, checa and melandri got adequate chances in motogp though, and I see no reason why 250 aces like biaggi and melandri should be more suited by superbikes, so them being at the front of the wsbk field suggests to me the top of the motogp field is still better.
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I agree about the equipment thing in general, as I have said recently stoner might have remained equivalent to randy de puniet had he never got his break on a factory bike. It applies to wsbk even more so though, as some animals are definitely more equal than others there. I also think riders like hayden, spies, edwards when he was younger who were brought up on/were particularly suited to superbikes might have different relativity to current motogp riders on superbikes as you imply. People like biaggi, checa and melandri got adequate chances in motogp though, and I see no reason why 250 aces like biaggi and melandri should be more suited by superbikes, so them being at the front of the wsbk field suggests to me the top of the motogp field is still better.
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Good points. All speculation right? So... Biaggi & Melandri, 250 aces and successful MotoGP regulars, both MotoGP runners up, sent packing way too early might gives us pause when they are regularly challenged and sometimes beat by unsung riders such as Haslam, Rea, Laverty, etc. Now contrast this to when somebody other than a fellow "alien" gets beat in GP, its news. U may conclude that its because they are just that much better, which u would be partly right, but i conclude that party is more an issue in GP.
Not sure how much u follow Wsbk, but last year and again this year, Factory Honda/Yamaha are the Wsbk equivalent of Max's Aprillia and Checa's Ducati. That is, if ur not on that, ur going to struggle. That is the frustrating reality, yet people ignore it and declare in GP, the "aliens" are the best without considering the obvious lesson of Rossi's sudden expulsion from the "alien" class in terms of results. I dont doubt for a minute that Lorenzo, Pedro, or Rossi would struggle on a Wsbk Bmw to compete with Checa's Ducati. Yet i rate those riders much better than Checa. In the same line of logic, would u rate Rossi better than Cal and Dovi? See where im going with this question? GP fans for the most part declare the best rider(s) in the world are in GP. Its my opinion that this is not true. There is only one rider that stands out head and shoulder of the current front runners in either series (Stoner), the rest of a handful of front runners are nearly equal in either series in my estimation.
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I did, they were all classified dry, I threw out wet races, or races that were shortened for any reason. If you look it up, you will see that in those races i listed, the Moto 2 bikes were faster the first couple of laps than 250's, then drop off considerably, thats not weather. Im guessing weight, tires, The Moto 2 can run a lap or two at 250 pace, but they cannot keep up over race distance. Head to head in a 20 lap race, the 250's are superior race machines. At Indy, the Moto GP bikes ran a faster race on the new surface, there is no reason to believe Moto2 wouldnt have compared to 2010
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Why not? Weather only gets better?
Maybe it was from close racing -- riders getting block passed, taking conservative lines, etc.
Anyway, Jerez aside the difference is less than a second per lap. Combined with lower cost and more entertaining racing, the time difference is insignificant.
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Its only significant because Noyes was preaching half truths. I dont give a .... personally because im not really a fan of the lower classes. I will however call ........ when i see it. Not saying your theory is wrong, but isnt a start of a Moto 2 race the most hecttic wiith traffic all bunched together. Thats when Moto 2 is faster, then they lose considerable time the last 3/4th of the race. Im still guessing weight and tires.
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Yes I see the problem. The only way to achieve parity in motogp is for DORNA to subsidise, to make weak teams the financial equal of strong. Spec rules dont work because as you say SBK is not level, even moto2 is questionable. How many moto2 riders really have a shot at the win or the title? It would be great to see every rider on a full factory bike. DORNA have already said they are strongly against this because the money ends up going to the manufacturer. I actually think it would boost their competition back to the spectacle they need, so worth every penny. Surely they could then demand the bike becomes the property of the team. I have finally come around to CRT, mainly thanks to Dennis Noyes.
I'm surprised DORNA havent subsidised the CRT teams, especially at the start to get them more quickly up to speed. CRT has to be successful now, since they make up almost 50% of the grid. Like starting a new business you have to put the money in at the start to be successful. Ensure they get some decent riders first and foremost, and decent equipment. I think DORNA could make CRT highly successful, in doing so making their whole product highly marketable, if only they would go all out and say the aim of CRT is to be the equal of factories and win races, rather than become grid filler.
I am a shallow fan and need someone to "root" for as you guys say. I followed wsbk avidly when bayliss was racing, and spies' championship, have less interest now but usually catch the second race and often the WSS. I like to see the ex-motogp guys do well, melandri, biaggi and even guintoli which shows my bias I guess.
Even as a stoner fan I don't think his relative performance on the ducati reflects his overall relativity to rossi,hayden, melandri etc; that bike was a very strange beast which could only be ridden one way, his way, which is apparently rather idiosyncratic and melandri was terrible on the 2008 ducati. It is all speculation but I think melandri (on a bike which suits him) and max (at his current age) are about dovi standard, close but no cigar. It is undoubtedly true that there are many bikes in both motogp and wsbk that no-one could win on, including BMW while they stick to their own electronics. I guess yamaha tried hard that year, but spies managed to beat the aprilias and ducatis on a yamaha where imo he was a large difference maker, and rossi did manage to go quite fast and sort the wsbk yamaha well enough for crutchlow to win races soon after, just mucking about on the yamaha with a broken leg in 2010.
Lol. Lorenzo, Pedrosa or Rossi would destroy Carlos on a WSBK BMW even against the factory Ducati. I remember Rossi jumping on Cal's bike after breaking his leg in 2010 and smoking the times achieved by Cal and the rest of the WSBK grid.
Anyway, Stoner and Rossi have discussed the issue that as the bikes get more advanced in their abilities (with the electronic suite) the role of the rider is slowly diminished. This makes the role of the bike as an element of success much greater than before. Rossi's poor results are a symptom of the changing times.
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Pov, is your ONLY choice for viewing MGP speedTV?
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Povol, given that you said later in this thread that you're not really that interested in the lower classes, perhaps this won't be something you follow up, but try googling "racing for me". I have one invite left....
Cue the torrent of pm's !! - Povol if you're interested you have first dibs until after this weekend. Not sure why, just maybe if you got to watch the moto2 races you'd have a blast and hence a better understanding of what those of us who mourn the loss of the 2T, but embrace the moto2 racing, see in Moto2. Plus a shed load of old and fascinating races and docos.
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Appreciate the offer, i used to belong to RU and gave out a couple of invites here as well. Give it to someone who will use it. I watched most of the Moto 2 races the first year and it just didnt grab me. Thats why i only saw 1 race last year, and if i hadnt been there, i wouldnt have seen it. If its on, and i happen to be watching with nothing else to do, sure, i will watch, i just wont go out of my way to watch. Its basically DMG Daytona Sportbike with modified chassis, which ironically i watch because of its lousy tv contract. It is shown at 12 midnight when an old married dude is home with nothing else better to do. If it were shown live, or even delayed on Saturday or Sunday afternoon, i would probably never see on of them either.GP is just different to me, i will plan my weekend around 45 minutes. Kinds of a sickness really.
Nice, didnt know about racing for me.. if anyone else has an invite for that one.. i got another good-for-racing tor.rent site invite that may be helpful
Moto2's been great i think.. never studied the comparison to 250's.. but the last few years have definitely given me the fix i miss for close racing..
Though I respect your indifference to Moto2, the one reason to watch it is Marquez. He is something special, something very special, and Moto2 is worth watching just for him. If you want to see the next Alien, watch Moto2.
Rossi also broke the WSBK lap record at Brno during that test, apparently. first ride with the broken leg. There is a difference for sure. Having said this, only Rossi and Stoner have proven themselves on different machines in the top class, Jorge and Dani have not so can we really call them Aliens? especially seeing as what has happen to Rossi on the Duck? I'm pretty sure Pedders and Jorge would also fair very poorly on that bike. I'm also sure that Stoner wouldn't be as good on the Yamaha-Horses for courses and the Yam was built for Rossi's style which transferred to Jorge perfectly as we know Stoner's is far different. Though its impossible to put anyone riding the Ducati into comparison with the current rubber.
I would love to see these Aliens on bikes with no electronic controls, for in this group its only Rossi who has proven himself here. This generation has tailored their style to the TC and the belief in the system to save them, look at what happened to Jorge in his early stages, even at Laguna last year when he didn't push a button or down change or whatever.......does this make them better riders than previous? For me no, it does make them more adaptive certainly and of course its not the younger generations fault-I would like to see them try without the rider aids. But IMO using the brain and wrist to control the attitude of the bike firstly-then having to manage your rubber and beat your competition, knowing you life depends on these human factors alone requires more skill.
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Why is it only Rossi who has proven himself? Because he rode a 500? That was a decade ago. Whilst Rossi was riding electronically controlled 990's Lorenzo Pedrosa and Stoner where riding carbed 250's with no electronic control. Therefore Rossi hasn't ridden without TC for a decade where as the others have only been on it for half that time.
Riding without TC successfully I guess requires extreme throttle control. It is very well documented that this is one of Stoners greatest strengths so I have no doubt that he would be just as successful. I haven't heard this skill talked about to much with Pedrosa or Lorenzo so I am not sure but considering their successes in 250's it would be a big assumption to suggest they were lacking in this area and there is no point even commenting on Rossi as we know this is a huge strength for him.
I agree with you that Lorenzo and Pedrosa would fair no better on the Duke as I don't think either of them are willing to throw themselves unnecessarily down the track anymore than Rossi is.
My understanding is when the fuel limit was introduced, the modern age of traction control and advanced electronics was born. Before this, the aids were modest, and certainly in the 500 era and early 990's with little regs they were either in extreme infantcy or non-existent.
Therefore of the current crop only Rossi and Nicky have ridden motogp machines with little or no electronics aiding everything. This is of course not the fault of the younger generation, but when you are talking absolute talent in human performance on a motorcycle, and many are recently claiming the current generation are better than any before them. I'm saying that with the aids they have today and tyres that dont go off, it is an impossible argument. Let's see them all on a 2001 NSR500 for a season or two and then judge.
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This type of argument goes all the way back to the beginning of time. Doohan's bike was lower tech than Rossi's 990, Rainey's bike was lower tech than Doohans big bang, Lawson and Gardners bikes would double as ejector seats, ultimately Ago rode a bike with spindly forks, treaded tires, crap suspension etc so surely he must be to most talented rider to ever exist?
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http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/sport/sportresults/MotoGP/2012/March/mar2912-crutchlow-lauds-special-lorenzo/
Crutchlow told MCN: “He is such a special rider that nobody can replicate what he does on the Yamaha. What makes him special is that he does it lap after lap after lap.
"Every single lap he does over a weekend from the time he leaves the pitlane, the other riders might be able to only do that once.”
Crutchlow said Lorenzo’s riding style was so natural and effortless that the former double 250GP world champion can’t explain how he does it.
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The member "stnd" pm'ed me a short while ago looking for an invite to R4M. I didn't have one to offer at that time.
stnd
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Talpa, Mental, nice exchange. I found myself agreeing with many of both ur points. It boils down to speculation. I for one dont buy that generation to generation, there were any better or inferior riders 'in general terms' respective of their eras, and again, i reject this idea of four current "aliens" with some suposed super power over the last crop or the previous crop of 'usual race winners'. Who is to say Stoner, Pedro, Lorenzo would have excelled or .... their pants on previous eras, even the last of the 990s formula? ...., Rossi went from Honda to Yamaha in the same formula and kept on stomping, contrast that to Yamaha to Duc, never have we seen such a fall from success; and again, in the same formula! So to compare across formulas bring a whole other layer of uncertainty. With respect to declaring the four "aliens" especially now that the parity of their machines against the rest is so obvious, is to my perview, a complete ........ argument. I do however think there are stand outs, these if anything are the real "aliens" of their respective eras. Currently, Stoner, there can be no doubt. Previously, Rossi (with my personal caveat of SNS), previous to them, Rainey, Roberts, etc.
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