Will Rossi start from pit road if he uses new bike

Jumkie · Sep 17, 2011

I feel its subversion of the spirit of the rules....again. Its a loophole for sake of strategy. He doesnt 'have' to take a 7th engine does he? Hes only doing it because he got such a ...... qual order (as im understanding it). Would he had taken 7th engine had he qualed 7th? Its all "legal" so i guess there is not much of a position of argument. Its a dumb engine rule anyway. I can only imagine if Casey grenaded engines or used on updates how he would hav been treated for taking a 7th engine. And since its Rossi doing it, well its probably 'genius'.

hawkdriver · Sep 17, 2011

Jumkie said:
I feel its subversion of the spirit of the rules....again. Its a loophole for sake of strategy. He doesnt 'have' to take a 7th engine does he? Hes only doing it because he got such a ...... qual order (as im understanding it). Would he had taken 7th engine had he qualed 7th? Its all "legal" so i guess there is not much of a position of argument. And since its Rossi doing it, well its probably 'genius'.

Well if it was Nicky getting stuck doing the test riding and taking this penalty I'm sure all us Haydenets would be pissed he was Rossi's test mule. I won't go as far to say Duc and Rossi are genius for this but atleast the guy is taking his licks and putting in the work, he got himself into this situation and now he's doing what he can to make things better. I don't see any problems with them taking the engine now and if he actually had a chance to win or podium it would be incredibly stupid to take the engine now , a podium or good result now would be so uplifting for all the people working hard to get the bike sorted.

GeePee · Sep 17, 2011

Pit lane penalty,

Valentino took a penalty when he signed for Ducati.

Or

Ducati took a penalty when they signed Valentino.

I'm not sure which one is more accurate.

The guys in the Ducati garage that were there last year must be remembering last year being so much different at Aragon to this year & starting from pit lane.

BarryMachine · Sep 17, 2011

I was wondering if the front runners may catch and lap anyone at Aragon,but on a few calc's ..... nah ...... unlikely .......... but now!! What a great way to Force it so Rossi is back in the action!! The TV will love it , the boppers will cry ....... " oh how good is Vale! nobody lapped him!!" ....... its all getting pretty desperate

.

Mr Squiggle · Sep 17, 2011

Just to clarify the new GP11.1 "alloy" chassis does require a newer version engine that will mount in both the GP11.1 Hayden is riding and the GP11.46 Rossi is currently trialing.

From Ryder Notes...

Nicky Hayden's remark yesterday that his engines wouldn't fit the new ally chassis was confirmed for me by Vito Guareschi. The difference is in the machining of the engine mounting lugs on the cylinder heads. Vale's sixth motor, taken at Misano, has the lugs machined so it will bolt into either chassis. So the aluminium chassis has not necessitated a new motor.

To be fair I think this engine rule is having an unintended consequence here for Ducati...it was introduced to ensure engine life and reliability but Ducati are being penalised because their engine is an integral part of the "chassis" and by trialling so many different versions to fix their handling issues they have now exceeded their allocation.

dwoodhouse · Sep 17, 2011

Jumkie said:
I feel its subversion of the spirit of the rules....again. Its a loophole for sake of strategy. He doesnt 'have' to take a 7th engine does he? Hes only doing it because he got such a ...... qual order (as im understanding it). Would he had taken 7th engine had he qualed 7th? Its all "legal" so i guess there is not much of a position of argument. Its a dumb engine rule anyway. I

can only imagine if Casey grenaded engines or used on updates how he

would hav been treated for taking a 7th engine. And since its Rossi doing

it, well its probably 'genius'.

I would expect Stoner to do the same and have no issue for it. The rule is there to penalise for a race. Not a number of races. It's unreasonable to expect that the pitlane start only applies if the rider qualifies close to the front. As most riders do an installation lap on their second bike, it would be expected that both engines would be used anyway. The penalty will have been applied and based on barry's post, it might be VR who actually gets lapped as a result. Can't tell me that he's a genius for that.

michaelm · Sep 17, 2011

Jumkie said:
I feel its subversion of the spirit of the rules....again. Its a loophole for sake of strategy. He doesnt 'have' to take a 7th engine does he? Hes only doing it because he got such a ...... qual order (as im understanding it). Would he had taken 7th engine had he qualed 7th? Its all "legal" so i guess there is not much of a position of argument. Its a dumb engine rule anyway. I can only imagine if Casey grenaded engines or used on updates how he would hav been treated for taking a 7th engine. And since its Rossi doing it, well its probably 'genius'.

It is a stupid rule and hence I have no problem with any subversion of it, and Ducati will qualify, like suzuki, to have more engines on the basis of not winning as things are currently proceeding anyway, and similarly there being not much difference between 13th on the grid and starting from pit row is not imo a major loophole. Under the F1 rule which the motogp rule apes this was quite a common occurrence initially, although there now seems to be almost 100% engine reliability.

The engine rule is another rule which basically advantages the manufacturer with the most engineering resources ie honda, who have had no problems with engine reliability under this rule from the get-go, and may have known this would be the case when the rule was promulgated. Like the tyre rule it would seem likely the engine rule rather than saving money, the purported reason for it being brought in, has increased (at least)ducati's costs.

Andy Roo · Sep 17, 2011

I have always been a cynic and a pessimist, I have always had the Victor Hugo "What Evil good can be" as a page footer and am a big fan of the whole notion of the law of unintended consequences and the like.

My observation is simple, simplistic but so true.

The contract between Valentino Rossi and Ducati was nothing more than the greatest price able to be paid to make them both look really bad.

Even if Valentino's engines have extra lugs and connection points compared to Nicky's engines and he is going to start from the grid rather than pit lane what really is the difference between starting 13th or from pit lane. Both Factory Ducati's were on the podium here last year, The rider and the team must both be as frustrated as a pyromaniac in a petrified forest.

lad · Sep 18, 2011

maybe the team should offer Lorenzo 15million to ride the bike next year - they got multiple wins after they did this to their previous rider last year

dwoodhouse · Sep 18, 2011

I do think the engine rule is silly like a number of people on here have expressed however Rossi is just making the best of a bad situation.

Anyway, bring on the race, nothing to see here.

bluegreen · Sep 18, 2011

Andy Roo said:
See below ...

Pure ....... gold - I am one of those riders that whilst on my little Honda 600 (nickname the whipper snipper) enjoyed handing guys on 30K+ yuppie bikes their arse and I did it a few times on many of the twisties around here (Northern NSW/Gold Coast and hinterland).

Despite my desire to get an Aprilia Tuono ( more the power + riding position for my newly gifted disabilities) I have always felt that way

This year for all the words spoken unnecessarily and typed for no good reason it has been about the vindication of Casey Stoner.

Screw the stupid personality contests (they are for girls)

Screw the supposed Honda advantage (take Casey away and they are coming second)

Screw the developmental limitation of the Ducati and the problems (they were laughed about by JB and Vale at the start of the season)

Ducati won here last year

And now they have created a mountain of discarded parts and ideas trying to make the bike work like Casey made it work.

The scoreboard contains all the excuses anyone needs

Also - Harley know their place, yuppie fat accountant bikes for people who pretend to be wild and free in between Latte stops, turning fuel into noise without the unwanted by product of horsepower. They are moving over, Ducati are coming. Albeit from Pit lane and honestly they deserve it and have been subject to their own 'mouthtrap'

Sorry dude. Honda have the best bike this year, they also have the best rider. And as far as taking things away, take Stoner AND Sic away and Honda are in first

kieran · Sep 18, 2011

Rossi is now reaping what he has sown! Told honda to go .... themselves, then did pretty much the same thing to yamaha and now is reaping his rewards in ducati heaven. I don't feel sorry for him one bit. The young lions always take over. It's called natural selection. Rossi has nowhere to go. It's either do something at ducati or retire as far as I can see. KARMA is a ...... If he's good enough he'll do something. If not, then cya!

Andy Roo · Sep 18, 2011

bluegreen said:
Sorry dude. Honda have the best bike this year, they also have the best rider. And as far as taking things away, take Stoner AND Sic away and Honda are in first

You catch me and you out a bit on the "but for" argument here, BUT take away Stoner and the scoreboard places second to first, take away Kamikaze Simoncelli and we have an assumption based on the results generally that Pedro would have continued to do well, win races and would not have caused his fragile self any injury of his own design fault or failure.

It is however based on an assumption and not a direct examination of the results sans Stoner and Simoncelli.

We can neither extract or extrapolate results minus any rider nor stretch a long bow and take multiple riders away to achieve a particular position. By stretching that bow far enough Elias is going to take it out in 2011.

Which leads to my next point.

The sans Stoner argument does have a little support in that the Ducati team don't have him and have failed miserably this year.

The sans (name of other rider) argument supporting Pedro's title bid is still a very big hypothetical, he has ridden the Honda factory bike since 2006 and has not taken a title.

No matter how far we stretch the hypothetical bow we have to hit a real world target of a motogp title. If Pedro would have taken it (or be in the lead this year) if Stoner wasn't there shall float eternally in the ether of the great unanswered and only anecdotally supported theories in racing.

Edit: after that I needed an Ellipsis (...) and an emoticon - laying in a hospital bed gives me too much time to make arguments

bluegreen · Sep 18, 2011

Andy Roo said:
You catch me and you out a bit on the "but for" argument here, BUT take away Stoner and the scoreboard places second to first, take away Kamikaze Simoncelli and we have an assumption based on the results generally that Pedro would have continued to do well, win races and would not have caused his fragile self any injury of his own design fault or failure.

It is however based on an assumption and not a direct examination of the results sans Stoner and Simoncelli.

We can neither extract or extrapolate results minus any rider nor stretch a long bow and take multiple riders away to achieve a particular position. By stretching that bow far enough Elias is going to take it out in 2011.

Which leads to my next point.

The sans Stoner argument does have a little support in that the Ducati team don't have him and have failed miserably this year.

The sans (name of other rider) argument supporting Pedro's title bid is still a very big hypothetical, he has ridden the Honda factory bike since 2006 and has not taken a title.

No matter how far we stretch the hypothetical bow we have to hit a real world target of a motogp title. If Pedro would have taken it (or be in the lead this year) if Stoner wasn't there shall float eternally in the ether of the great unanswered and only anecdotally supported theories in racing.

Edit: after that I needed an Ellipsis (...) and an emoticon - laying in a hospital bed gives me too much time to make arguments

Yeah, my "but for" was pretty tongue in cheek. Pedro still probably would have broken another collar bone all on his own.

The way I look at the Honda this year is Dovi. Maybe he's gotten better, but he looks much stronger than last year and I'm chocking some of that up to the bike. I'm with Jumkie and his mousetrap angle...

Stoner is still leading on an M1 but IMO Honda has the best mousetrap.

stiefel · Sep 18, 2011

bluegreen said:
Yeah, my "but for" was pretty tongue in cheek. Pedro still probably would have broken another collar bone all on his own.

The way I look at the Honda this year is Dovi. Maybe he's gotten better, but he looks much stronger than last year and I'm chocking some of that up to the bike. I'm with Jumkie and his mousetrap angle...

Stoner is still leading on an M1 but IMO Honda has the best mousetrap.

I don't think he his doing that much better than in the last 2 years. Actually, over roughly the first half of the season he did marginally better in 2010. The main reason he sits in third in the points this year, rather than in 5th is that Pedrosa and Rossi are not in front of him, which I think has less to do with the performance of the Honda and more with that of the Ducati and Pedrosa injuries. Mind you, I think Andrea is doing a great job.

bluegreen · Sep 18, 2011

stiefel said:
I don't think he his doing that much better than in the last 2 years. Actually, over roughly the first half of the season he did marginally better in 2010. The main reason he sits in third in the points this year, rather than in 5th is that Pedrosa and Rossi are not in front of him, which I think has less to do with the performance of the Honda and more with that of the Ducati and Pedrosa injuries. Mind you, I think Andrea is doing a great job.

I am basing my opinion less on standings and more and watching him during races for what it's worth

But I agree, he's doing a great job this year and it's a shame he's losing his ride.

Andy Roo · Sep 18, 2011

bluegreen said:
Yeah, my "but for" was pretty tongue in cheek. Pedro still probably would have broken another collar bone all on his own.

The way I look at the Honda this year is Dovi. Maybe he's gotten better, but he looks much stronger than last year and I'm chocking some of that up to the bike. I'm with Jumkie and his mousetrap angle...

Stoner is still leading on an M1 but IMO Honda has the best mousetrap.

I was about to reply then ...

stiefel said:
I don't think he his doing that much better than in the last 2 years. Actually, over roughly the first half of the season he did marginally better in 2010. The main reason he sits in third in the points this year, rather than in 5th is that Pedrosa and Rossi are not in front of him, which I think has less to do with the performance of the Honda and more with that of the Ducati and Pedrosa injuries. Mind you, I think Andrea is doing a great job.

Jesus H Christ you are quick - the Rossi out was my ace card and you posted first.

Actually the whole thing would look entirely different if Rossi was still on a Yamaha, his decision to be King of the back markers had a profound effect on the field. I don't think he would have taken too many wins away from Jorge or Casey, but he would have changed the points and podiums a lot.

Edit: But yes I agree, Honda is the best mousetrap, but not by an insurmountable margin or even as big a margin as some would portray it to be

stiefel · Sep 18, 2011

Andy Roo said:
I was about to reply then ...

Jesus H Christ you are quick - the Rossi out was my ace card and you posted first.

Actually the whole thing would look entirely different if Rossi was still on a Yamaha, his decision to be King of the back markers had a profound effect on the field. I don't think he would have taken too many wins away from Jorge or Casey, but he would have changed the points and podiums a lot.

I'm have to do some incredible tedious work related stuff on my laptop, so I clutch at every possibility to get distracted. Also, I think you have a good excuse for having somewhat impeded reaction times, you druggie (hope the rehab is not to bad by the way!).

Andy Roo · Sep 18, 2011

stiefel said:
I'm have to do some incredible tedious work related stuff on my laptop, so I clutch at every possibility to get distracted. Also, I think you have a good excuse for having somewhat impeded reaction times, you druggie (hope the rehab is not to bad by the way!).

Actually I am having a pain day, every broken bone I have (all 12 of them - and multiple breaks on some of those) is aching, my high femur (neck of femur) is doubling its effort and I'm completely uncomfortable and trying to get the nurses to give me more drugs but I'm maxed out.

This is where I spew about them taking away my morphine because sometimes lesser drugs just don't cut it.

ALSO, big praise for the Princess Alexandra Hospital in Brisbane, I have been well looked after.

Nuts · Sep 18, 2011

Andy Roo said:
Actually I am having a pain day, every broken bone I have (all 12 of them - and multiple breaks on some of those) is aching, my high femur (neck of femur) is doubling its effort and I'm completely uncomfortable and trying to get the nurses to give me more drugs but I'm maxed out.

This is where I spew about them taking away my morphine because sometimes lesser drugs just don't cut it.

ALSO, big praise for the Princess Alexandra Hospital in Brisbane, I have been well looked after.

Sorry to hear about your accident mate.

Hang in there and get better soon.

Look on the bright side, even though you are smashed up, you're still on the right side of the grass.

Will Rossi start from pit road if he uses new bike

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