why is Caparossi so slow this season?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tom @ Aug 14 2007, 07:46 AM) [snapback]84536[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I don't think it would look very different, Stoner, Rossi and Pedrosa are the three best rideres in the world. There is so much to riding technique beyond throttle control that these guys can do better than anyone else and non of them are gonna be ham-fisted are they (250 riders). Take away the electronics and i think the riders would perform on very similar levels no matter how many of you dream that the guys you like would all rise to the top if it was still a "mans sport"


I agree, although I think Melandri might be as fast as Pedrosa and Stoner, but as others have said perhaps not as consistent this year at least.

I am willing to believe that traction control might allow an inferior rider to get closer to a superior rider, but I can't see how it could make them actually faster especially on the same bike.

You have to admit, though, that the traction control does indeed take quite a bit of the harshness out of these bikes. I wish there wasn't traction control as well. Get on with it without the tc and lets see who the best riders really are.....not who has the best tc and engine management package.

I don't have favourite riders Tom, you know that. I don't think that Stoner is physically strong enough to keep the bikes going for 30 laps with no traction control, and Pedrosa I'm in doubt too. I know he's in good shape fitness wise, but his size would surely be a disadvantage.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsraeliRacer @ Aug 14 2007, 09:57 AM) [snapback]84543[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I don't have favourite riders Tom, you know that. I don't think that Stoner is physically strong enough to keep the bikes going for 30 laps with no traction control, and Pedrosa I'm in doubt too. I know he's in good shape fitness wise, but his size would surely be a disadvantage.


Explain to me how the strength requirements would be significantly different?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tom @ Aug 14 2007, 11:07 AM) [snapback]84547[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Explain to me how the strength requirements would be significantly different?


You'll need to wrestle the bike more. More unstable both front and rear would mean the ability to move around and shift weight smothly and fast without upsetting the bike. That does take a lot even if it sounds like light work. Lighter guys would have to move more to achive the same effect and at the same time they are disadvataged with shorter limbs and less power. If that would make a significant deifference is something we can only speculate in. Many thought Pedrosa was to small for the 990, they were wrong.

The real difference without TC would be consistency. Everyone can have a perfect lap as fast as now, but but most would be slower on the other laps, and then of course we would get more craches.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Babelfish @ Aug 14 2007, 10:39 AM) [snapback]84551[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
You'll need to wrestle the bike more. More unstable both front and rear would mean the ability to move around and shift weight smothly and fast without upsetting the bike. That does take a lot even if it sounds like light work. Lighter guys would have to move more to achive the same effect and at the same time they are disadvataged with shorter limbs and less power. If that would make a significant deifference is something we can only speculate in. Many thought Pedrosa was to small for the 990, they were wrong.



TC doesnt allow the riders to just sit there and open the throttle! The electronic systems will be analysing whether or not they can successfully apply more power, so the rider going the fastest will be the one who shifts his weight smoothly and quickly without upsetting the bike so the computer believes that more power can be used. TC affects throttle control slightly but it doesnt eliminate it, and other riding techniques and physical actions are still just as important.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tom @ Aug 14 2007, 05:46 PM) [snapback]84536[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I don't think it would look very different, Stoner, Rossi and Pedrosa are the three best rideres in the world. There is so much to riding technique beyond throttle control that these guys can do better than anyone else and non of them are gonna be ham-fisted are they (250 riders). Take away the electronics and i think the riders would perform on very similar levels no matter how many of you dream that the guys you like would all rise to the top if it was still a "mans sport"


Thanks Tom...I say NO MORE!!!... ...and excuses and more excuses doesn’t make and/or justify a allot towards the contrary!!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tom @ Aug 14 2007, 11:48 AM) [snapback]84554[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
TC doesnt allow the riders to just sit there and open the throttle! The electronic systems will be analysing whether or not they can successfully apply more power, so the rider going the fastest will be the one who shifts his weight smoothly and quickly without upsetting the bike so the computer believes that more power can be used. TC affects throttle control slightly but it doesnt eliminate it, and other riding techniques and physical actions are still just as important.


I never said that they just sit there, that would be silly.
I agree with how you describe how the TC works with the rider, however, without it you have to work harder, react quicker, move more.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Babelfish @ Aug 14 2007, 06:04 PM) [snapback]84651[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I never said that they just sit there, that would be silly.
I agree with how you describe how the TC works with the rider, however, without it you have to work harder, react quicker, move more.


Only with your right wrist, the rest of it is the same job.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tom @ Aug 14 2007, 07:05 PM) [snapback]84652[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Only with your right wrist, the rest of it is the same job.


........!
Sorry Tom, it's not the way it works. Take away the electronics and you have a much harder time on the bike. The slides will come and you have to counter them. A shaking and sliding bike are better controlled by a stronger and heavier body.
Why on earth do you think that riders new to the latest in TC says the bikes are so easy to ride? Only because of the right wrist? Sorry, but thats just BS!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tom @ Aug 14 2007, 10:48 AM) [snapback]84554[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
TC doesnt allow the riders to just sit there and open the throttle! The electronic systems will be analysing whether or not they can successfully apply more power, so the rider going the fastest will be the one who shifts his weight smoothly and quickly without upsetting the bike so the computer believes that more power can be used. TC affects throttle control slightly but it doesnt eliminate it, and other riding techniques and physical actions are still just as important.

thats pretty much what it does tom,
my mate has tc on his bmw m3, if he gives it to much gas on a corner it just spins out but if the tc is on it goes round the corner no mater how much gas he gives it, i presume the bikes work in the same way, tc is for ......, riders who came up through the ranks without it alway ride just below the limit yet rider who no nothing but tc equipped bikes can ride bang on the limit because the computer will sort it all out, i believe this is why some of the older riders are below the new pace.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(roger-m @ Aug 15 2007, 12:18 AM) [snapback]84713[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
thats pretty much what it does tom,
my mate has tc on his bmw m3, if he gives it to much gas on a corner it just spins out but if the tc is on it goes round the corner no mater how much gas he gives it, i presume the bikes work in the same way, tc is for ......, riders who came up through the ranks without it alway ride just below the limit yet rider who no nothing but tc equipped bikes can ride bang on the limit because the computer will sort it all out, i believe this is why some of the older riders are below the new pace.


TC on cars is nowhere near the same though is it, your camparison is meaningless. Furthermore you like to critisize riders like Casey deopending on TC for results but he was on a un-assisted 250 just two years ago, which is the height of throttle control in road racing. Riders such as rossi have been riding around with TC on their side since it was introduced in 2003, so they will be far more geared into dependancy.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Babelfish @ Aug 14 2007, 11:51 PM) [snapback]84708[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
........!
Sorry Tom, it's not the way it works. Take away the electronics and you have a much harder time on the bike. The slides will come and you have to counter them. A shaking and sliding bike are better controlled by a stronger and heavier body.
Why on earth do you think that riders new to the latest in TC says the bikes are so easy to ride? Only because of the right wrist? Sorry, but thats just BS!


i can appreciate that the demands slightly increase physically when the TC isn't catching all the slides, but considering that the TC is still set up to allow oversteer to be used and that none of these riders are ham fisted i don't think the demands will be much higher. The big difference will be the mentality that TC allows, it was the concentration lapses that caused highsides, not fatigued limbs. So instead of looking for another way to put down guys like Dani and Casey for beating the experienced guys, just consider that it is actually their mental strength that holds them close, and sometimes above the experienced guys like Rossi, taker away TC and those gaps get bigger. Given the mistakes rossi has been making this season he would be in big trouble if they were still riding 500's with no electronics.

Sheesh! Even Tom can find the flaws in Rog's utterly stupid posts, what's the world coming to!?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tom @ Aug 15 2007, 10:44 AM) [snapback]84756[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
i can appreciate that the demands slightly increase physically when the TC isn't catching all the slides, but considering that the TC is still set up to allow oversteer to be used and that none of these riders are ham fisted i don't think the demands will be much higher.


At least we agree in some, but then again, how many fat slides do you see from Pedrosa? Not much eh?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<div class='quotemain'>
The big difference will be the mentality that TC allows, it was the concentration lapses that caused highsides, not fatigued limbs. So instead of looking for another way to put down guys like Dani and Casey for beating the experienced guys, just consider that it is actually their mental strength that holds them close, and sometimes above the experienced guys like Rossi, taker away TC and those gaps get bigger.


I agree in the first part there, but would like to take it longer. It's not only about mental stregth but what you must keep focus on. Slides that throws you everywhere will put the focus at other parts than going fast. Another disadvantage for the small, young guys. Besides, it's not about fatigued limbs, the guys are fit enough, but about how much raw strength and weight you are able to put into it and in the end how much toll that take and how focused you are at the end of the race.

I can also agree that the gaps would get bigger, but allthough not perfectly clear you seem to think that they would go in Pedrosa and Stoners favour, while I say it would be oposite. How is it that it is their mental stregth that keep them up there? Take away soemthing they "grew up with" and allow them to focus on raw speed and restore what the experienced guys knows and they (CS/DP) still have the advantage? me don't understand.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<div class='quotemain'>
Given the mistakes rossi has been making this season he would be in big trouble if they were still riding 500's with no electronics.


AFAIK he has done one serious misstake this year, in germany, if you talk about all those "misstakes" in Shanghai or Le Mans, forget it. Those are attemts to keep up with or pass others on a bike that doesn't perform. If his crash statistics looked like stoners did last year we could talk. As it is, I think what he did on those races is rather a proof of excellent mental strength.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Babelfish @ Aug 15 2007, 10:40 AM) [snapback]84775[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
1. At least we agree in some, but then again, how many fat slides do you see from Pedrosa? Not much eh?

2. I can also agree that the gaps would get bigger, but allthough not perfectly clear you seem to think that they would go in Pedrosa and Stoners favour, while I say it would be oposite. How is it that it is their mental stregth that keep them up there? Take away soemthing they "grew up with" and allow them to focus on raw speed and restore what the experienced guys knows and they (CS/DP) still have the advantage? me don't understand.

3. AFAIK he has done one serious misstake this year, in germany, if you talk about all those "misstakes" in Shanghai or Le Mans, forget it. Those are attemts to keep up with or pass others on a bike that doesn't perform. If his crash statistics looked like stoners did last year we could talk. As it is, I think what he did on those races is rather a proof of excellent mental strength.


1. Pedrosa could rear wheel steer his 250 more than convincingly enough.

2. CS and DP haven't grown up with TC at all, they have had it for 1 season, rossi's entire resent career has been built on TC, take it away from him and things might get a lot harder. Also, CS particularly clearly has the edge on Rossi in mental strength and focus this season, which leads me to point 3

3. If Rossi had made some of the mistakes from this year without TC saving his ... he would be on his arse more often wouldn't he. I'm getting fed up of people trying to pretend that TC is the reason that these young kids are winning when the reality of the situation is that the new generation is here and they are on rossi's level.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tom @ Aug 15 2007, 11:46 AM) [snapback]84781[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
1. Pedrosa could rear wheel steer his 250 more than convincingly enough.

2. CS and DP haven't grown up with TC at all, they have had it for 1 season, rossi's entire resent career has been built on TC, take it away from him and things might get a lot harder. Also, CS particularly clearly has the edge on Rossi in mental strength and focus this season, which leads me to point 3

3. If Rossi had made some of the mistakes from this year without TC saving his ... he would be on his arse more often wouldn't he. I'm getting fed up of people trying to pretend that TC is the reason that these young kids are winning when the reality of the situation is that the new generation is here and they are on rossi's level.


1. A 100kg bike with 100bhp is a world appart form what he rides now.

2. They have never ridden any GP bike without it. Hence "Grown up"
Just because CS have a awsome package that let him focus on staying in the lead doesn't make him mentally stronger. He does have a huge mental advantage, as well as a huge points advantage but it's not the same, at all. We've seen what he does when things doesn't work, and that did not impress. I'm not saying he's at that level now, just that his history doesn't work for him and a close to troublefree season so far doesn't prove .... when comes to mental stregth in general. That said, he does an impressive job staying calm when fighting with rossi. If that's because he is in the points lead, he can pass any time on the straight, or that he has become stronger mentally is hard to say, probably all of them. But again, rating him against Rossi seems pointless, as the two are in totally different situations. If any, Rossi's situation is more like Stoners last year and he certainly doesn't do like Stoner did. Stoners is more like Rossi's Honda days, and he behaves just like Rossi did. And that proves what? That you get a boost in self confidence when you dominate the races. Surprise.

The TC has had a sharp development curve from nothing in the 500 days where Rossi started and up to today. With that he has proven one of his strongest talents, throttle control.

3. Would he? We have no idea what so ever what the CS would look like without TC. Besides, I can't think of one single incident where we've seen rossi being saved by TC. Being wet or dryfor most parts it's been trouble under braking. But that's just what I can remember, but again, the races would be very different.

Yeah I can see you are getting fed up, but relax, I'm not here to put any of those to riders down. Go back to my first post on the topic and you'll see I question the impact of their size allready there. I'm sure it will be harder for them, but I'm not so sure it will make a real impact. From my part this was only ment as a theoretical discussion, making the time go by to the next race (1 day 20 hours according to MotoGP.com).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Babelfish @ Aug 15 2007, 11:49 AM) [snapback]84792[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
1. A 100kg bike with 100bhp is a world appart form what he rides now.

2. They have never ridden any GP bike without it. Hence "Grown up"
Just because CS have a awsome package that let him focus on staying in the lead doesn't make him mentally stronger. He does have a huge mental advantage, as well as a huge points advantage but it's not the same, at all. We've seen what he does when things doesn't work, and that did not impress. I'm not saying he's at that level now, just that his history doesn't work for him and a close to troublefree season so far doesn't prove .... when comes to mental stregth in general. That said, he does an impressive job staying calm when fighting with rossi. If that's because he is in the points lead, he can pass any time on the straight, or that he has become stronger mentally is hard to say, probably all of them. But again, rating him against Rossi seems pointless, as the two are in totally different situations. If any, Rossi's situation is more like Stoners last year and he certainly doesn't do like Stoner did. Stoners is more like Rossi's Honda days, and he behaves just like Rossi did. And that proves what? That you get a boost in self confidence when you dominate the races. Surprise.

The TC has had a sharp development curve from nothing in the 500 days where Rossi started and up to today. With that he has proven one of his strongest talents, throttle control.

3. Would he? We have no idea what so ever what the CS would look like without TC. Besides, I can't think of one single incident where we've seen rossi being saved by TC. Being wet or dryfor most parts it's been trouble under braking. But that's just what I can remember, but again, the races would be very different.

Yeah I can see you are getting fed up, but relax, I'm not here to put any of those to riders down. Go back to my first post on the topic and you'll see I question the impact of their size allready there. I'm sure it will be harder for them, but I'm not so sure it will make a real impact. From my part this was only ment as a theoretical discussion, making the time go by to the next race (1 day 20 hours according to MotoGP.com).


I can't really argue because your points are as valid as mine, its impossible to accurately speculate how the racing would be in different circumstances . All we can really agree on is that these guys are the most qualified riders int he world racing at the top of their game. It doesn't get any harder than this so they all deserve our admiration.

This is for Roger


HE IS OLD

On a more serious note,he is getting old and with the birth of a child you cant help but think of your mortality.He had a nice career but it is nearing the end

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(povol @ Aug 15 2007, 05:19 PM) [snapback]84864[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
This is for Roger
HE IS OLD

On a more serious note,he is getting old and with the birth of a child you cant help but think of your mortality.He had a nice career but it is nearing the end

and so will you be one day, if your lucky, then you will realize what stupid things you used to say when you were young

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tom @ Aug 15 2007, 01:32 PM) [snapback]84807[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I can't really argue because your points are as valid as mine, its impossible to accurately speculate how the racing would be in different circumstances . All we can really agree on is that these guys are the most qualified riders int he world racing at the top of their game. It doesn't get any harder than this so they all deserve our admiration.


True, that we can agree on. Except for the midget Pedrobot that never smile