Why has HONDA not dominated pre-season tests.

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yamahamer-AL @ Jan 27 2007, 12:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>anyhow...you are way off and wrong... Honda has all the money, all the best engineers, and are the BEST at what they do...BUT!..all that means poo if the RIDER is not there to develop the bike..... to take said machine out and push it to its limit and find its weakness....with out the RIDER to impute his info on where the bike development has to go all you have is a computer to crunch numbers.....that computer (computer being the engineers also) WILL and CAN build the bike...but can't make it faster...

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since when have you been so naive?
HRC don't need a rider! The rider is only on the bike because the rules dictate that the bike cannot ride itself.
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But seriously, suppose Hayden and Pedrosa can't develop a bike to the standard that Doohan or Rossi could (I'm not saying they can't, I'm just thinking hypothetically) and this new RCV turns into quite a weapon (Let's face it, when was the last time Honda built a nail? 20 years ago?). That makes you wonder, for all thier arrogance, are HRC right? Can they build a bike without major rider input?
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Remeber, the bike was complete before Hayden and Pedrosa even saw it, and it wasn't exactly a slouch. It's scary how smart those guys are getting...
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Jan 27 2007, 03:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Richo, read my post alittle more carefully. When I said the end is near, I didn't mean Honda's end, I was just trying to explain how the other factories are managing to get closer to Honda's ability to develop a bike.

I wasn't targeting you in particular, man. It just seems the mood of the thread is "Honda got no Rossi or Doohan for the new bike, they're screwed!" I love predicting the downfall of Honda (Nothing against the riders, but as a Kawa fan I'm jealous of anyone successful), but I always get dissapointed. People have been saying this new 800 has no input from Rossi, so it's not gonna be as dominant as the old RCV. Well I gotta agree with Ooost that Rossi and his crew's role in development might have been a bit exaggerated. I mean, I'm sure him and Burgess did a lot of work, but like Ooost said, while they were out racing, trying to win, guys were in Japan, building, testing and refining the bike. Proof is that Honda have stayed competitive without Rossi. The excuse that "Hayden and Pedrosa are riding the bike that Rossi developed!" dosen't hold a lot of water in my opinion. Rossi's development stopped at the end of 2003. If Honda had stayed at that level, or only crept forward every year at a slower rate, they'd be hangin out with Kawasaki and Suzuki on race day in 2006. They continued to be the bike to beat after Rossi left, which leads me to beilve that he wasn't spearheading development on the level people assume he did. I mean, have we heard of any Doohan-like innovations that have left the whole grid copying Rossi? I'm not trying to take anything away from him, I'm just reluctantly thinking theat the guys at HRC deserve more credit than they get, and by bringing Doohan into it, I got another chance to talk about how he's better than Rossi.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Jan 27 2007, 11:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>PD. I do understand bike development. But not Sponsor’s (Business) interests.

I agree that Sponsors can throw their weight around a bit on issues like this, but I think one big factor you might not have taken into account is that niether LCR or Team KR have major sponsors. Sure, they have minor sponsors, but LC and KRSR would have to be pretty weak to let themselves get bossed around by guys who are only paying for a few square inches of space on the bikes.
For any other teams, it could cause trouble, problems with differing manufacturers and sponsors and team and rider rivalry would stop any such event. But these two teams are practically sponsor-less, and the riders and team managers are mature and smart enough to work out that this could be adventageous. As for Honda, well both LCR and Team KR would be pretty down low in the pecking order, if anything Honda might like the oppourtunity to steal some of Team KR's decent Chassis knowledge, and KRJR can get a feel of what he's up against in the RCV, where it's better or worse in what areas. I don't think Honda has any serious intrest in this, though. It's more inter-team co-operation. As long as Team KR is under Honda's wing, they won't mind. If I were HRC, I'd be more concerned about how they'll keep Gresini happy with his new tyres and no "Semi-factory" bike on his team anymore to develop the bike with Bridgestone tyres. Unfortunately, guys like KR and Checa probably aren't gonna be front runners on the level of Pedrosa, Hayden and Melandri, so I doubt they'll get much of Honda's attention, regardless of what they do.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (richo @ Jan 27 2007, 08:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>
<
since when have you been so naive?
HRC don't need a rider! The rider is only on the bike because the rules dictate that the bike cannot ride itself.
<


But seriously, suppose Hayden and Pedrosa can't develop a bike to the standard that Doohan or Rossi could (I'm not saying they can't, I'm just thinking hypothetically) and this new RCV turns into quite a weapon (Let's face it, when was the last time Honda built a nail? 20 years ago?). That makes you wonder, for all thier arrogance, are HRC right? Can they build a bike without major rider input?
<
Remeber, the bike was complete before Hayden and Pedrosa even saw it, and it wasn't exactly a slouch. It's scary how smart those guys are getting...

Of course they can build a greater than great bike on their labs, have no doubt. Nevertheless, the sport is not about a complete automated machine that could just go around like hell without any mistakes, it could all be programmed…

However, the thing is that to manufactures it is about sales. Pleasantly the complete truth is that it is about fans, NO Fans watching the sport (live, TV, news or whatever, for the ads and sponsorship) means NO Sales. That gives us the strength people!

More over, fans (one of the most important parts of any Sport as said before) identify with riders more than screws, tires or sponsors; it is riders personality, actions, reactions, emotions, pressures, situations, solutions, etc. that makes us fans like them or not. If this were not so, it would be the case that manufactures could have that completely automated machine that just goes round and round with no one caring a brick about it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (richo @ Jan 27 2007, 08:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I agree that Sponsors can throw their weight around a bit on issues like this, but I think one big factor you might not have taken into account is that niether LCR or Team KR have major sponsors. Sure, they have minor sponsors...

Ok. But I meant, if Roberts, with this test can further develop his bike faster, he would be in a position (Was 2000 World Champion) to maybe challenge for some wins or so… Where does this leave Konica Minolta (Big Sponsors) or Nakano (Japs love him)? Also, I see Nakano rather leveled up with Roberts and Checa for ’07… Why not him exchanging bikes?
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Jan 28 2007, 06:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Of course they can build a greater than great bike on their labs, have no doubt. Nevertheless, the sport is not about a complete automated machine that could just go around like hell without any mistakes, it could all be programmed…

However, the thing is that to manufactures it is about sales. Pleasantly the complete truth is that it is about fans, NO Fans watching the sport (live, TV, news or whatever, for the ads and sponsorship) means NO Sales. That gives us the strength people!

More over, fans (one of the most important parts of any Sport as said before) identify with riders more than screws, tires or sponsors; it is riders personality, actions, reactions, emotions, pressures, situations, solutions, etc. that makes us fans like them or not. If this were not so, it would be the case that manufactures could have that completely automated machine that just goes round and round with no one caring a brick about it.

The thing about HRC was a joke, because they do tend to ignore what a rdier tells them is wrong with the bike. Their attitude when the package is not performing is "There's nothing wrong with the bike, you're riding it wrong."

My point was that while I agree rider input is crucial to bike development, I dont think it plays as big a part as a lot of people seem to think. The HRC thing is a great example, they ignore a lot of riders comments, but still build the most competitive bike. I think the 800 is more proof of how bike development works. How Honda didnt show thiers to the riders until Motegi. They built the entire bike before the riders even saw it. I think that's how it works, the factory designs the bike, builds the bike, runs simulations to iron out as many kinks as possible, get the test riders to further that process and finally give it to the competition riders, who will complete the refinement process. And I doubt they tell the engineers what needs to be done, they probably just come out with a list of "wants" and a list of things that could work better, then its up to engineers to design new parts, or make adjustments, and give them back to the rider, who tests them comments on performance and, if nessecary sends them back to the drawing board. I think riders only come into the development cycle to refine the final package, and to keep it cometitive thouoght the season.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Jan 28 2007, 06:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ok. But I meant, if Roberts, with this test can further develop his bike faster, he would be in a position (Was 2000 World Champion) to maybe challenge for some wins or so… Where does this leave Konica Minolta (Big Sponsors) or Nakano (Japs love him)? Also, I see Nakano rather leveled up with Roberts and Checa for ’07… Why not him exchanging bikes?
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It's Robets right and duty to challenge for wins, regardless of who helped him in preseason testing. I don't quite understand how this has anything to do with Konica Minolta. I'll take a guess and say you're refering to the Honda connection. I don't think theat Honda exert their influence to that degree on the sattelite teams. To them, LCR and Team KR would just be
paying customers, not extra employees. I don't know much about Konica Mionlta's ties with Honda, but, frankly, this is none of thier business. Another thing is Team KR's links to Honda, they use RCV engines, and also do some testing work for Honda. So to share information with Team KR is not trading information with a different factory, it's trading information with a semi-integrated part of the same factory.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (richo @ Jan 28 2007, 12:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So to share information with Team KR is not trading information with a different factory, it's trading information with a semi-integrated part of the same factory.

Similar to the Honda - Moriwaki relationship.
 
I believe this article will validate what Richo has been asserting all along.http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?f...riendID=105991602&blogID=221819246&indicate=1
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Thursday, January 25, 2007

Over and out in Sepang

Howdy folks, sorry I didn't blog last night but I didn't get back from the track until 10pm, grabbed some room service and crashed out in a crumpled heap.
Firstly a quick update on the sunburn, which seems to have grabbed a few people's attention. Thanks for the tips and the mickey taking, much appreciated. Anyway, today I was doing the stereotypical Brit abroad. Having been bright red and in agony all week, finally went a nice golden brown last night and the tan lasted for all of 18 hours as I'm peeling already. So what's all this no pain, no gain crap eh?
So, back to the real reason why you read these ramblings. Well it's all done and dusted here in Sepang so what did we learn? Make no mistake that Valentino Rossi is more motivated than at any other time in his career to win that title back. Finishing fastest was an early boost to get rid of any '06 defeat hangover that might still have been lingering around, and from observing him this week I'd stick my hard earned quids on him right now to win the title. And I'm not just saying that because the guy we all think will run him close in Dani Pedrosa is struggling. A feature of this test too has been the continuing resurgence for the Suzuki team. John Hopkins and Chris Vermeulen were right in the thick of it again at the top of the timesheets and with only three tests left before it all kicks off, you've got to think that those two will be fighting for the podium in Qatar. I certainly hope so, because the more competition at the front then the better the racing is going to be. And there's a lot to be lived up to after last season's drama.
Suzuki is just about in dreamland at the moment. Their new 800 so far been a phenomenal success, but it's the riders that fascinate me about the whole scenario.
In Hopkins Suzuki have always had a bit of an uncut diamond. He's clearly got the speed, but hasn't had the bike under him to show his true potential. John seems to be a completely different beast these days to what he was a couple of years ago. I think he really embraced the responsibility of being the lead rider in terms of developing the bike, and he seems to have matured a hell of a lot. He was a bit of a throw back to the good old days when he first arrived with a work hard, play hard attitude. He got a bit of a reputation as a hell raiser and why not? The guy was getting paid good money to race motorbikes all around the world. I think in those early days, and I stand to be corrected, but John appeared to enjoy the lifestyle just as much as he did the racing. As I said I could be wrong. But in the last couple of years I think he's worked out for himself the effort and commitment it takes if you want to go all the way to the top in MotoGP. He's become obsessive about training and his fitness, and from talking to him a lot this winter you can see the hunger inside him. I think part of that is because he hated seeing Nicky Hayden win the world title. I don't think it's a personal thing, but John just believes he's a better rider than Nicky, and he thinks Nicky got fast tracked to the top and had a bit of the silver spoon treatment with Honda. And has he said to me recently in a telephone interview in the States, 'seeing Nicky win has really put a fire in his ...'.
The sport badly needs riders like John to be running at the front. He's got personality, speaks his mind and he's spectacular to watch. I doubt he will be bothered about ruffling Valentino's feathers if he gets to race with him more in 2007.
I think what also raised his game to another level was the arrival of a certain talented young Aussie on the other side of the garage. The first person you want to beat is your team-mate and Vermeulen's arrival I think stoked the fire in John even more. Your team-mate is the person first and foremost who you will be gauged against, In some ways Verrmeulen overshadowed John a little bit last season with two pole positions and a podium, and its clear that Vermeulen made the right choice in chasing his MotoGP dream rather than hanging around in World Superbikes. He's carving a reputation for himself in the paddock, and Valentino gave him a big up here in Sepang the other day.
I remember when MCN exclusively revealed that Vermeulen was coming to Suzuki, I sounded out our WSB reporter Michael Guy to see what Vermeulen was like to work with. It all sounded too good to be true but he is the journalists dream. He speaks regardless of how good or bad things are going, is always honest and co-operative. You can't ask for anything other than that from my side of the fence.
I'd say that behind Rossi, Vermeulen is probably the most switched on rider in the paddock. And behind that genuine nice guy is a fierce determination to succeed. I hope they do, just to add a bit more spice to the championship.
So what of those Honda boys languishing down the timesheets then? Complaints about the new 800 were close to deafening in Sepang. Nicky said yesterday he was shocked that they were so far off, and I don't know anybody who isn't. When the rules changed to 800cc, Honda was the driving force in implementing the switch. And HRC doesn't do anything unless it is of benefit to them. The last time the rules changed Honda swept all before them, and people were worried that it could happen again.
But this time round I think Honda are missing a couple of key ingredients. When the RCV 990cc bike was born, HRC had Valentino and Jerry Burgess telling them how to develop it. Now those two form a pretty potent partnership when you look at the number of race and championship wins on their CV. Is Honda now lacking that leadership and direction, or have they just made a bad call in how they've designed the RC212V?
Well at the moment its down on power and the electronic engine braking system is all over the shop. I was grabbing a bite to eat in the hotel today and a well-known Honda crew chief stopped for a chat. He was baffled by what Honda had done.
Now if Honda did build the bike for Dani Pedrosa as is widely believed, then that's fine as long as it works for Dani and he's fighting for the championship. But then you render information and data from five other riders totally useless. I had to laugh the other day when we spoke to the RC212V project leaders Takanori Okuma. He was asked if the bike was so small because it had been built with Pedrosa in mind. He said the bike had been built around a standard size rider. So who is the standard size rider? Nicky Hayden apparently, yet he went on to say the final bike fits a rider a little smaller than Nicky. So Dani Pedrosa then.
One man who is finding the going tough is Carlos Checa. Carlos is one of the tallest riders in the paddock, and he's not happy. Apparently the bike is so low at the front it feels like riding a camel. And with hardly any fairing to speak of, most of his body is exposed to the wind on the straight. This is a problem for Nicky too. He said last night that Honda had taken pictures of him to see how much of his body was screwing up the aerodynamics and he said it wasn't pretty. He's losing most of his time at the end of the straights because he can't get tucked in. And this was after Honda had flown in a new supposedly bigger and more protective fairing. Carlos is apparently so big for the bike that his shoulders ache like hell at the end of the day because of the buffeting off the wind. I've also heard it said that he's told people that the electronics are not in the same league as the Yamaha he rode last season.
I thought the sunstroke had finally got the better of me yesterday when I saw Kenny Roberts Junior riding Checa's bike. It all became clear though as they swapped bikes. It was all agreed in Valencia last season in a bid to help Kenny get up to speed faster having missed the pre-Christmas tests.
Apparently his comments were the same as Carlos's on the Honda, yet the more interesting aspect for me was what Checa though of Kenny's bike. I heard Carlos say the riding position was much better, he was protected by the fairing, the engine braking was better and so was the power delivery. I hasten to add this didn't come directly from Carlos, but it came from somebody pretty close to him. Now Team Roberts design their own air intake system and exhausts, so it seems that for now the Banbury boys have done a better job than the huge resources available at HRC. You've got to think that Honda will get it right soon or later, but for the time being the complaints are making for some bloody good copy.
Right, I'm off to pack for Australia.
Laters. M.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yamahamer-AL @ Jan 26 2007, 11:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>so after all your eloquent banter BS..you go to the insults...ok i'm game..

mmmmmm, your moms a "not a nice person" (ed. CaptainSnow)...
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get over yourself Junker..
I always rise or lower myself to whomever is doing the dishing. "get over yourself" yami-hummer-giver.
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Hey, you can always use the:I know your are but but what em I"... that's in your back pocket.

Oh, the bell is ringing, I guess recess is over and its time for cookies and milk.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (richo @ Jan 27 2007, 06:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Proof is that Honda have stayed competitive without Rossi. The excuse that "Hayden and Pedrosa are riding the bike that Rossi developed!" dosen't hold a lot of water in my opinion. Rossi's development stopped at the end of 2003. If Honda had stayed at that level, or only crept forward every year at a slower rate, they'd be hangin out with Kawasaki and Suzuki on race day in 2006. They continued to be the bike to beat after Rossi left, which leads me to beilve that he wasn't spearheading development on the level people assume he did. I mean, have we heard of any Doohan-like innovations that have left the whole grid copying Rossi? I'm not trying to take anything away from him, I'm just reluctantly thinking theat the guys at HRC deserve more credit than they get, and by bringing Doohan into it, I got another chance to talk about how he's better than Rossi.
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Yes I agree. It's rather crazy to think that it was only Rossi developing this bike. What the boys (Akawa) on the little Island are doing is what I think is much of the developing. I also think we give way too much credit to any one aspect of the development: ie engineers or riders. I think it really is a combined effort on many fronts not just limited to these two factors. It seems to have been glossed over, but the truth is, technology is narrowing amongst the had nots. What it use to take an army of engineers, can now be done by one guy on a computer. This is why I think Honda, with all their resources, are now having to compete on a much more level playing field with the other factories (as the early testing is indicating).
 
1169:attachment]

Hayden just does not fit in RCV212V, does he ?

He's not even got a helmet!
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Yeah, him and Checa really need that new faring. That article ogunski posted talked about how Hayden's body frame is costing his time in that the aerodynamics of the bike aren't working probably. "Built to suit a medium-sized" rider my arse. To put it into perspective, I was talking to a guy who's met Hayden in person the other day, and he say's he's short as all hell. I know we can read the hieght stats, but I think seeing a rider in person really nails home how small even the biggest amongst these guys are. I hope Honda have another rule change planned for about ten years from now, otherwise it seems to me they're not looking into the post-Pedrosa long term future. Kinda like Yamaha with Rossi.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (richo @ Jan 28 2007, 10:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, him and Checa really need that new faring. That article ogunski posted talked about how Hayden's body frame is costing his time in that the aerodynamics of the bike aren't working probably. "Built to suit a medium-sized" rider my arse. To put it into perspective, I was talking to a guy who's met Hayden in person the other day, and he say's he's short as all hell. I know we can read the hieght stats, but I think seeing a rider in person really nails home how small even the biggest amongst these guys are. I hope Honda have another rule change planned for about ten years from now, otherwise it seems to me they're not looking into the post-Pedrosa long term future. Kinda like Yamaha with Rossi.

Maybe that is where Asimo comes in the picture, no wonder such a big investment in a robot that cannot even paint higher than 3 feet tall walls…

Post-Pedrosa equals Asimo Version X, or was it, Asimo equals Pedrosa now!

My guess is HRC wants it all automated!
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1175:attachment]
 
I dunno, that pack on his back is a bit bulky. Pedrosa is lightyears ahead of his curcuit-based brethren. Maybe HRC stole him from the future in thier time machine.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Jan 28 2007, 07:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I always rise or lower myself to whomever is doing the dishing. "get over yourself" yami-hummer-giver.
<


Hey, you can always use the:I know your are but but what em I"... that's in your back pocket.

Oh, the bell is ringing, I guess recess is over and its time for cookies and milk.

you must have been that kid in school that got picked on constantly, recieved swirlies, wedgies all through school...thats gotta be why you're such a prick all the time....grow up man...before someone pops you square in the mouth.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yamahamer-AL @ Jan 30 2007, 07:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>you must have been that kid in school that got picked on constantly, recieved swirlies, wedgies all through school...thats gotta be why you're such a prick all the time....grow up man...before someone pops you square in the mouth.
It doesn't surprise me to see you are such an immature person; I have enjoyed reading your many jokes but I had a feeling underneath all that is a façade of insecurity. For being such a jokester, you sure are a thin-skinned person. You are the queen of the site when it comes to jokes (I don’t think anybody who spends alittle time here wouldn’t notice), but you sure CANNOT take one. Don't forget, I was minding my own business until YOU decided to try and impress me with one of your jokes directed at me (as you like to do when you throw in your one liners), so I dished one back, and now you got your panties all in a bunch? I think you need to do some growing up at least and at best some genuine probing of your personal issues. Perhaps some psychotherapy may be in order. Last time I checked, threats of punching people online would be a very difficult thing to accomplish. But perhaps, you can discover a way and we can handle our business. Otherwise, stick to your jokester one-liners, and we will all go back to enjoying the humor and comic relief, while the rest of us have intellectual debates about the sport.

"If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks!"
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (richo @ Jan 30 2007, 12:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I dunno, that pack on his back is a bit bulky. Pedrosa is lightyears ahead of his curcuit-based brethren. Maybe HRC stole him from the future in thier time machine.
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Do not know about the backpack, but the size matches!

Maybe in a newer version, plus miniaturize technology, plus skin like human envelope = Pedrosa!
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