Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Mick D
His speciality is late braking and the uncanny ability to hold a line at the same time. Makes a lot of passes where they are not expected. Best passer in the sport. Pedrosa on the same bike almost always will pass at the end of a straight, whereas Marquez will atttack you anywhere with a kind of block pass which really doesnt stand you up, just make you flinch because its unexpected.
His speciality is late braking and the uncanny ability to hold a line at the same time. Makes a lot of passes where they are not expected. Best passer in the sport. Pedrosa on the same bike almost always will pass at the end of a straight, whereas Marquez will atttack you anywhere with a kind of block pass which really doesnt stand you up, just make you flinch because its unexpected.
povol
I agree with this but would this work on the Yamaha as it is currently? I have no doubt he could change his style but the bike may lack what he needs to apply this tactic.
I agree with this but would this work on the Yamaha as it is currently? I have no doubt he could change his style but the bike may lack what he needs to apply this tactic.
Joined Aug 2013
342 Posts | 1+
Louisiana, USA
Mental Anarchist
The bike definitely lacks what he needs to do this; Rossi said as much. Braking late and hard is Rossi's style, but he could never set up the Yamaha to do it to his liking. Lorenzo simply rode around this problem.
The bike definitely lacks what he needs to do this; Rossi said as much. Braking late and hard is Rossi's style, but he could never set up the Yamaha to do it to his liking. Lorenzo simply rode around this problem.
Joined Aug 2013
342 Posts | 1+
Louisiana, USA
povol
Lol, that's not what I said. I was pointing out that the Yamaha isn't suited to late, hard braking. That's how Rossi tried to ride, and it doesn't work. The M1 demands early braking, smoothness, and big, arcing turns, Could Marquez do all that? I think so. But he wouldn't be able to ride the M1 he way he rides the RCV.
Lol, that's not what I said. I was pointing out that the Yamaha isn't suited to late, hard braking. That's how Rossi tried to ride, and it doesn't work. The M1 demands early braking, smoothness, and big, arcing turns, Could Marquez do all that? I think so. But he wouldn't be able to ride the M1 he way he rides the RCV.
rezonator636
Agree and yet disagree to an extent.
IMO, Gibernau was at times the equal of Rossi on that rack and had far more talent than he is often given credit for, talent that I do feel he himself did not know he had as quite simply, he did things at times that were exceptional, but could never be consistent. Biaggi was an exceptional 2 stroke rider, one of the best of the last 20 or so years and I do consider him a 2 stroke riding genius who's career was impacted by the arrival of the four stroke (McCoy as well)
But where Rossi 'got lucky' (if you will allow that statement) is that he only really ever had 1 possible threat per race and once he had that threat under control the rest was easy for him. Since 2007/2008 there was more than 1 serious threat and whilst he has won championships in that time it has taken it's toll and of course today we see at least 3 genuine contenders plus Rossi per race.
To me it is quite simply that the weight of numbers is now showing that Rossi has far more equal r better competitors today, which is greater than he ever has had to contend against.
It does not lessen what he achieved and shows the sheer level to which he ahs forced these others to reach in order to beat him (and I am no Rossi fan)
Agree and yet disagree to an extent.
IMO, Gibernau was at times the equal of Rossi on that rack and had far more talent than he is often given credit for, talent that I do feel he himself did not know he had as quite simply, he did things at times that were exceptional, but could never be consistent. Biaggi was an exceptional 2 stroke rider, one of the best of the last 20 or so years and I do consider him a 2 stroke riding genius who's career was impacted by the arrival of the four stroke (McCoy as well)
But where Rossi 'got lucky' (if you will allow that statement) is that he only really ever had 1 possible threat per race and once he had that threat under control the rest was easy for him. Since 2007/2008 there was more than 1 serious threat and whilst he has won championships in that time it has taken it's toll and of course today we see at least 3 genuine contenders plus Rossi per race.
To me it is quite simply that the weight of numbers is now showing that Rossi has far more equal r better competitors today, which is greater than he ever has had to contend against.
It does not lessen what he achieved and shows the sheer level to which he ahs forced these others to reach in order to beat him (and I am no Rossi fan)
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
rezonator636
That was my point all along. What got this debate going was i said that Marquez could put Yamaha's cornering speed to devastating use. He rode the Moto2 bikes the way it neede to be ridden and dominated, he rode the Honda GP bike the way it needed to be ridden, which happens to be similar to the Moto2 bike and won a title, BUT, he rode the 125's the way they have to be ridden and dominated. I think the kid can morph his riding style at will to make a bike go fast. He is that good.
That was my point all along. What got this debate going was i said that Marquez could put Yamaha's cornering speed to devastating use. He rode the Moto2 bikes the way it neede to be ridden and dominated, he rode the Honda GP bike the way it needed to be ridden, which happens to be similar to the Moto2 bike and won a title, BUT, he rode the 125's the way they have to be ridden and dominated. I think the kid can morph his riding style at will to make a bike go fast. He is that good.
Joined Aug 2013
342 Posts | 1+
Louisiana, USA
povol
I can definitely agree with this statement. I think that the face Marquez puts on for the public-the smiling and the happy go lucky persona-serves to mask the fact that he's a very hard worker who absorbs information incredibly quickly. If he had gone to Yamaha, I think he would have learned to ride the bike like Lorenzo. Would he have gone faster than JLo? I don't know, although I doubt it's possible to make the M1 go any faster than Lorenzo is doing. I do think, however, that he would have been going as fast as Lorenzo by the end of the year.
I can definitely agree with this statement. I think that the face Marquez puts on for the public-the smiling and the happy go lucky persona-serves to mask the fact that he's a very hard worker who absorbs information incredibly quickly. If he had gone to Yamaha, I think he would have learned to ride the bike like Lorenzo. Would he have gone faster than JLo? I don't know, although I doubt it's possible to make the M1 go any faster than Lorenzo is doing. I do think, however, that he would have been going as fast as Lorenzo by the end of the year.
Joined Apr 2011
900 Posts | 4+
somewhere else
Rezonator "Would he have gone faster than JLo? I don't know, although I doubt it's possible to make the M1 go any faster than Lorenzo is doing. I do think, however, that he would have been going as fast as Lorenzo by the end of the year. "
Great question. I think if he was on an M1 in '13, Lorenzo would have successfully defended his title last year.
Great question. I think if he was on an M1 in '13, Lorenzo would have successfully defended his title last year.
Joined Aug 2013
342 Posts | 1+
Louisiana, USA
Does nobody else think that discrediting rossis reputation from 10 years ago on the basis he isn't winning now is stupid? Times change
Rossis 'lack of competition' in his prime is a reflection of how superior he was! Take him out & we'd be talking about the golden era of Biaggi, capirossi, gibernau & barros. Same thing happened with doohan.
Rossis 'lack of competition' in his prime is a reflection of how superior he was! Take him out & we'd be talking about the golden era of Biaggi, capirossi, gibernau & barros. Same thing happened with doohan.
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Tom
He was superior to the competition that was layed before him. The problem is, that competition was lacking compared to the competition today by a long shot. As far as Doohan, his career was very similar. Doohan had very little competition in the last half of his career when he was racking up gaudy numbers, while Rossi had very little competition in the first half of his career while racking up gaudy numbers. The numbers are what they are , but people are finally starting to see that gaudy numbers dont automatically qualify you as GOAT. I personally feel that Stoner, Lorenzo and Marquez are all better, and any of the 3 would put up even gaudier numbers if the other 2 were not,or had not been around. Can you imagine what Stoners numbers would have looked like if he spent his career on a factory Yamaha or Honda with say Pedrosa and as his only challenger, and he has superior numbers to Biaggi, Capirossi and Gibernau.
Rossi is one of the greats, but by no means the greatest.
He was superior to the competition that was layed before him. The problem is, that competition was lacking compared to the competition today by a long shot. As far as Doohan, his career was very similar. Doohan had very little competition in the last half of his career when he was racking up gaudy numbers, while Rossi had very little competition in the first half of his career while racking up gaudy numbers. The numbers are what they are , but people are finally starting to see that gaudy numbers dont automatically qualify you as GOAT. I personally feel that Stoner, Lorenzo and Marquez are all better, and any of the 3 would put up even gaudier numbers if the other 2 were not,or had not been around. Can you imagine what Stoners numbers would have looked like if he spent his career on a factory Yamaha or Honda with say Pedrosa and as his only challenger, and he has superior numbers to Biaggi, Capirossi and Gibernau.
Rossi is one of the greats, but by no means the greatest.
Joined Aug 2013
342 Posts | 1+
Louisiana, USA
povol
But Dani has probably lost more collarbone points than anyone in history.
Tom
If you took out JLo, MM, and Pedrosa, Rossi would be just as dominant now as he was during his five-title run. That, I believe, is the point Povol is making, and it's one I've made over and over: the lack of competition early on made him look better than he was, and made him think he was better than he was. That misplaced confidence is what caused him to jump to Ducati in the first place. Rossi admitted as much when he said he had "badly misjudged" Stoner's talent (which, let's be honest, many of us did).
The way I see it: what Lorenzo did last season is as impressive as any of Rossi's titles. Riding an inferior machine and saddled with a useless teammate, he took his riding to another level and took the fight to the most powerful and well-funded team in MotoGP. By the end, the three of them had raised the game to such a level that when JLo deliberately tried to ride slowly at Valencia, the rest of the field still couldn't keep up. He didn't win the title, and so his stats won't match those of Rossi when all is said and done, but if we've learned anything over the past few years it's that great riders are defined by more than just numbers.
But Dani has probably lost more collarbone points than anyone in history.
Tom
If you took out JLo, MM, and Pedrosa, Rossi would be just as dominant now as he was during his five-title run. That, I believe, is the point Povol is making, and it's one I've made over and over: the lack of competition early on made him look better than he was, and made him think he was better than he was. That misplaced confidence is what caused him to jump to Ducati in the first place. Rossi admitted as much when he said he had "badly misjudged" Stoner's talent (which, let's be honest, many of us did).
The way I see it: what Lorenzo did last season is as impressive as any of Rossi's titles. Riding an inferior machine and saddled with a useless teammate, he took his riding to another level and took the fight to the most powerful and well-funded team in MotoGP. By the end, the three of them had raised the game to such a level that when JLo deliberately tried to ride slowly at Valencia, the rest of the field still couldn't keep up. He didn't win the title, and so his stats won't match those of Rossi when all is said and done, but if we've learned anything over the past few years it's that great riders are defined by more than just numbers.
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
It was offcially announced today, Ducati will race all of its MotoGP bikes in the Open configuration this season, including those of the factory team (Dovizioso and Crutchlow).
I think it's a good choice and hope all the Open bikes do well in 2014.
I think it's a good choice and hope all the Open bikes do well in 2014.
Joined Jul 2006
11K Posts | 291+
Texas
