What can Honda and Yamaha do at this point to salvage the 2023 season

warthog1 · Jul 10, 2023

mylexicon said:
By letting a snake into the garden, and by holding a few low-IQ rumination sessions, the MSMA have unleashed something that they now want to kill with fire.

True? Who knows. But it's an interesting story

It makes sense to me. It and aero has removed the ability to push, slide and hold the front.
It now seems a precipice that is approached with less warning and once over it you are down.
MM had a clear advantage in his ability to go hard into a corner and survive a loss of traction. That appears gone.

evo9 · Jul 11, 2023

Regarding this situation, HRC President Watanabe said that he would like to catch up with rivals as soon as possible by incorporating the knowledge of the automobile division.

“We are currently struggling in MotoGP, but we have just started working on the part where the two-wheel and four-wheel divisions will collaborate on development.”

HRC used to be a company that specialized in two-wheel racing, but from April 2022, Honda's four-wheel racing department will also be incorporated into this HRC, and both two-wheel racing and four-wheel racing departments will be involved. A synergistic effect is expected.

So Honda will be making an RCV Type R F1 for next year to keep up with the Duaudi RS.

MotoGPで苦戦が続くホンダ。HRC渡辺社長、マルケス離脱の噂に「残ってもらえるよう、“モノ”で示す。それがホンダのやり方」

jp.motorsport.com

MotoGP, Watanabe: “Marquez? Honda won't just ask him to stay"

MotoGP: “We will have to show Marc something concrete to convince him to stay, but we won't keep him if he decides to leave. We are working on the development for 2024, incorporating four-wheel technology”

www.gpone.com

Koji Watanabe (HRC): Marc Márquez entscheidet

Koji Watanabe, der Präsident der Honda Racing Corporation, nahm zu den Transfergerüchten um Marc Márquez Stellung und äußerte sich zur weiteren Herangehensweise des japanischen Herstellers.

www.speedweek.com

Keshav · Jul 11, 2023

If this is to be believed, then it sounds like Marc has already expressed his desire to go and Watanabe sounds like he's resigned to it. The involvement of the F1 people is unlikely to provide useful changes in only one or two seasons. Time is flying and Marquez isn't getting any younger.

mylexicon · Jul 12, 2023

warthog1 said:
It makes sense to me. It and aero has removed the ability to push, slide and hold the front.
It now seems a precipice that is approached with less warning and once over it you are down.
MM had a clear advantage in his ability to go hard into a corner and survive a loss of traction. That appears gone.

Yeah, I think Marc intuitively understands something that Hayden also understood about letting the tail hang out in the braking zones. I assume it lowers the CoG and suppresses the stoppie tendency of the bike, and perhaps allows the bike to be setup with higher CoG to aid weight transfer during acceleration, but I'm no expert on riding dynamics.

Unfortunately for Hayden, he entered MotoGP at the height of the tire war, and dragging the rear tire in every braking zone was a no-no. Marquez competed in the control tire era, and the Bridgestone/Michelin rear could take the abuse.

The introduction of ride height devices has effectively outlawed fast-and-loose, though Binder seems to be experimenting with various racing lines and shapes. The Honda is apparently not stable enough to allow Marquez to play around with his lines and the attitude of the bike. We'll see what happens. Maybe concession will put Honda back in the game.

mylexicon · Jul 12, 2023

Keshav said:
If this is to be believed, then it sounds like Marc has already expressed his desire to go and Watanabe sounds like he's resigned to it. The involvement of the F1 people is unlikely to provide useful changes in only one or two seasons. Time is flying and Marquez isn't getting any younger.

With unlimited testing and freedom to homologate updated engine and other components, Honda could probably make strides quickly, especially if they receive input from Adrian Newey.

Will they get concessions to make wholesale changes to the bike? Will Marc trust that what he tests is achievable with help from the GPC?

You may be correct, though. Marc has not scored a point on Sunday, and we're 8 rounds into the 2023 season. He might be long gone already.

DavidSim · Jul 12, 2023

Personally I don't think Honda needs the MM "shyte show" any longer, it will take Honda some time to get the new engineering team(s) up to speed when they combine cars and bikes and they don't need people continually crapping on them while they line up their ducks.

At this point I'd like to see how Rins does when he gets back, I hope Honda really gets behind him and they can salvage some podiums (he's had a win already), as for MM let him look elsewhere immediately (if not already doing so). I'd like to see MM on either the KTM or Ducati asap (even this year), that would be interesting indeed, MotoGP in general would benefit from the buzz no doubt.

PRS717 · Jul 12, 2023

DavidSim said:
I'd like to see MM on either the KTM or Ducati asap (even this year),

I'm curious if this remarkably would happen, whose seat would you want MM to take?

mikesbytes · Jul 13, 2023

PRS717 said:
I'm curious if this remarkably would happen, whose seat would you want MM to take?

Rinaldi WSBK LOL

#22 · Jul 13, 2023

PRS717 said:
I'm curious if this remarkably would happen, whose seat would you want MM to take?

It would have to be Miller. Binder isn't going anywhere and MM would only accept a factory ride at this point. I think the most likely case IF that happened would be Binder/MM at Red Bull KTM. Miller/Acosta at GasGas and Fernandez loaned to Gresini Ducati or LCR Honda if Rins goes to Yam.

Unlikely though, I agree.

mylexicon · Jul 13, 2023

Some interesting information has emerged regarding the prevalence of ride height devices. According to Mat Oxley, the ride height system Ducati implemented was designed by the German engineer, Robin Tuluie, the same guy who designed the Mercedes F1 hydraulic ride height regulator. This strengthens the possibility, imo, that everyone is using the same system because it's possible the technology is available for license. Other prototype racing technologies, like pneumatic valve actuation, are also available from outside racing firms. I believe Geo Technologies has pneumatic systems and ties to the paddock. I remember a few fanciful rumors that they were going to put pneumatic valves on the CBR engine to lengthen service intervals and increase power when Moto2 launched. Unfortunately, that rumor was not correct.

Anyway, fantastic info from Mr. Oxley

PRS717 · Jul 13, 2023

mikesbytes said:
Rinaldi WSBK LOL

LOL but seriously, I think Bassani should get that seat.

Road1951runner · Jul 13, 2023

I don't know if Honda's 2023 season can be saved even with concessions. But I think the health of their riders could be saved by firing Alberto Puig right away. OK. This year's bike isn't competitive, Things like that happen, and maybe it's too late to improve it enough for this season. Everyone seems to agree that Marc's crashes this season is because he is pushing the bike way past it's limits. And it can be argued that he has always done this. But the same can't be said for Joan Mir and Alex Rins. They weren't crashing the Suzuki and they have both stayed healthy for the good number of years that they've been racing in all the classes.
So why now? I point the finger at Alberto Puig. I only know him from seeing him on-screen, but he gives me the impression of being a real s.o.b. of a boss. I think that he is pushing all the riders (HRC directly and LCR indirectly) past their limits to make up for the bike's shortcomings.
Look back to 2006. Now I was a big Nicky fan, and I will always have a place in my heart for him. But objectively, thinking of him and Dani on the same bike, I can't imagine how he won the championship. The difference? Puig was managing Pedrosa. And in the following years? With Puig's pressure on HRC to build a "HonDani", they continue to fail until Marquez came around.
Now Yamaha has also messed up with this year's bike. And having no satellite team is definitely a management failure. But Lin Jarvis isn't pushing his riders so hard that they are crashing and getting injured (Franco's injury was during training). The Yamahas may be finishing outside of the points too often this year, but at least they are finishing the races on the track rather than in the hospital.

Paul55 · Jul 13, 2023

Road1951runner said:
I don't know if Honda's 2023 season can be saved even with concessions. But I think the health of their riders could be saved by firing Alberto Puig right away. OK. This year's bike isn't competitive, Things like that happen, and maybe it's too late to improve it enough for this season. Everyone seems to agree that Marc's crashes this season is because he is pushing the bike way past it's limits. And it can be argued that he has always done this. But the same can't be said for Joan Mir and Alex Rins. They weren't crashing the Suzuki and they have both stayed healthy for the good number of years that they've been racing in all the classes.
So why now? I point the finger at Alberto Puig. I only know him from seeing him on-screen, but he gives me the impression of being a real s.o.b. of a boss. I think that he is pushing all the riders (HRC directly and LCR indirectly) past their limits to make up for the bike's shortcomings.
Look back to 2006. Now I was a big Nicky fan, and I will always have a place in my heart for him. But objectively, thinking of him and Dani on the same bike, I can't imagine how he won the championship. The difference? Puig was managing Pedrosa. And in the following years? With Puig's pressure on HRC to build a "HonDani", they continue to fail until Marquez came around.
Now Yamaha has also messed up with this year's bike. And having no satellite team is definitely a management failure. But Lin Jarvis isn't pushing his riders so hard that they are crashing and getting injured (Franco's injury was during training). The Yamahas may be finishing outside of the points too often this year, but at least they are finishing the races on the track rather than in the hospital.

Actually Rins crashed a lot, usually when he was somewhere near front.

mikesbytes · Jul 14, 2023

I'm getting the impression that Honda might of lightened the crankshaft, like Suzuki's mistake a few years back. Anyway whatever there does seem to be a problem with the engine, which they can't change until next year and for next year they should get their 2021 engine out and develop it for 2024.

What Honda could do this year is to put all 4 riders on the same frame and then share the data between them, which isn't currently possible due to each having their own frames.

mylexicon · Jul 14, 2023

mikesbytes said:
I'm getting the impression that Honda might of lightened the crankshaft, like Suzuki's mistake a few years back. Anyway whatever there does seem to be a problem with the engine, which they can't change until next year and for next year they should get their 2021 engine out and develop it for 2024.

What Honda could do this year is to put all 4 riders on the same frame and then share the data between them, which isn't currently possible due to each having their own frames.

Well, they seem to be throwing chassis components at the RC, and Honda have never really lacked grunt or acceleration. I suppose they could be repositioning the engine and redesigning critical geometry to tame a bad engine, but I'm not sure.

Based upon the gripes aimed at Yamaha this year, and their supposed lack of horsepower and acceleration in the past, lightening the engine internals to increase the rev ceiling is a strategy they pursued, and now they are stuck with a savage, wheelie-prone engine.

Who knows though? It's not either or. HRC could have made many changes all at once, but that does seem to go against Kawauchi's style, which is testing new parts completely independently of other developments, even occasionally reverting to old spec to ensure the riders don't lose their reference point.

#22 · Jul 17, 2023

mylexicon said:
Well, they seem to be throwing chassis components at the RC, and Honda have never really lacked grunt or acceleration. I suppose they could be repositioning the engine and redesigning critical geometry to tame a bad engine, but I'm not sure.

If it is engine issues, they cannot do anything about it until after Valencia with the engines being sealed. If you look at my photos from the testing thread in pre season, they were experiementing with engine rotation based on the engine mount locations. It seems they rotated the engine forwards for 2023.

mylexicon said:
Based upon the gripes aimed at Yamaha this year, and their supposed lack of horsepower and acceleration in the past, lightening the engine internals to increase the rev ceiling is a strategy they pursued, and now they are stuck with a savage, wheelie-prone engine.

Who knows though? It's not either or. HRC could have made many changes all at once, but that does seem to go against Kawauchi's style, which is testing new parts completely independently of other developments, even occasionally reverting to old spec to ensure the riders don't lose their reference point.

From Lecuona's comments about the WSBK program too, Honda just seem lost in general. Sadly.

mikesbytes · Jul 17, 2023

#22 said:
If it is engine issues, they cannot do anything about it until after Valencia with the engines being sealed. If you look at my photos from the testing thread in pre season, they were experiementing with engine rotation based on the engine mount locations. It seems they rotated the engine forwards for 2023.

From Lecuona's comments about the WSBK program too, Honda just seem lost in general. Sadly.

As I've said before, they need to unify their development between the 4 riders by putting all 4 on the same frame so the data can be shared. If they haven't already done it they need to ditch 2023 and use the rest of the season as development for next season

Yes they can't change the engine but they can tune it with different exhausts and settings in the electronics.

#22 · Jul 18, 2023

Agreed. Seems like a cluster .....

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What can Honda and Yamaha do at this point to salvage the 2023 season

warthog1

evo9

MotoGPで苦戦が続くホンダ。HRC渡辺社長、マルケス離脱の噂に「残ってもらえるよう、“モノ”で示す。それがホンダのやり方」

MotoGP, Watanabe: “Marquez? Honda won't just ask him to stay"

Koji Watanabe (HRC): Marc Márquez entscheidet

Keshav

mylexicon

mylexicon

DavidSim

PRS717

mikesbytes

#22

mylexicon

PRS717

Road1951runner

Paul55

mikesbytes

mylexicon

#22

mikesbytes

#22

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