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What can Honda and Yamaha do at this point to salvage the 2023 season

Please tell us what Ducati invented?
1) Daimler-Benz first patented a desmodromic valve-train system for a V-twin equipped car back in 1889.
2) Single-sided swingarms date from at least the late 1940s. In 1948, the Imme R100 produced by Norbert Riedel of Germany had both a single-sided front wheel suspension as well as a single-sided rear swingarm that doubled as the exhaust pipe.

They Ducati are very good at circumventing/exploiting the rules. I guess you could call that innovation.

They didn't pioneer the carbon "monocoque" but they did bring it to GP, and drastically improve the level of technical sophistication. Of course, that was Preziosi who they sent packing because it seemed politically expedient to adopt the aluminum twin spar for the 1000cc formula.

To be honest, I don't know why so many fans cling to the idea of technology in GP. Everything innovative, besides electronics (the one thing that really needs to go), is eventually banned in the rulebook or by backroom deal. For the last 40 years, MotoGP is starting with a clean sheet and building something for the rider, using the manufacturers parts bin. For a short time, at the beginning of the 990 formula, engine innovation was encouraged, but no more.

If the fans and sanctioning bodies are more honest about the true nature of GP racing, the sport will reach new heights. Elaborate corporate deceit is not working out.
 
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They didn't pioneer the carbon "monocoque" but they did bring it to GP, and drastically improve the level of technical sophistication. Of course, that was Preziosi who they sent packing because it seemed politically expedient to adopt the aluminum twin spar for the 1000cc formula.

To be honest, I don't know why so many fans cling to the idea of technology in GP. Everything innovative, besides electronics (the one thing that really needs to go), is eventually banned in the rulebook or by backroom deal. For the last 40 years, MotoGP is starting with a clean sheet and building something for the rider, using the manufacturers parts bin. For a short time, at the beginning of the 990 formula, engine innovation was encouraged, but no more.

If the fans and sanctioning bodies are more honest about the true nature of GP racing, the sport will reach new heights. Elaborate corporate deceit is not working out.
I agree, the 990 formula has been the best of the 4 stoke era. Why call it MotoGP when innovation went out the window with spec ECU and control tires? They dorna claim this move was to reduce operating cost. We sure have seen how much this move have saved....

If a manufacture cant afford to freely develop racing technology they should not be racing. But if they can, by all means they should be able to race their R&D technology. If I were both Honda & Yamaha, I'd tell dorna to stuff the concession and demand their ECU and Bridgestone tires. If they are refused those options leave!
 
Ducati was the first to use wings for down force and I think the first to use the ride height device. Ducati seems to be the only one who thinks outside the box while the others just follow suit and try to do it better. I appreciate what ducati does. Other than the seamless transition they seem to be the first to the punch.
 
Ducati was the first to use wings for down force and I think the first to use the ride height device. Ducati seems to be the only one who thinks outside the box while the others just follow suit and try to do it better. I appreciate what ducati does. Other than the seamless transition they seem to be the first to the punch.


I wouldn't give them credit for either of those. While not as pronounce, the Kawasaki Zx12R had wings. As for the ride height devices. MX racers have been using them for decades.


ZX1200B_10-1280x852.jpg
 
Ducati was the first to use wings for down force and I think the first to use the ride height device. Ducati seems to be the only one who thinks outside the box while the others just follow suit and try to do it better. I appreciate what ducati does. Other than the seamless transition they seem to be the first to the punch.

Ride height has been around the grand prix paddock for 30 years, though you could argue Ducati (by way of Cagiva) were the first manufacturer to introduce it. Cagiva eventually bailed on grand prix racing to campaign the Ducati 916 in Superbike, and I wouldn't be surprised if some backroom political wrangling eventually caused it. Ride height was explicitly banned in 2008, if I recall, but I'm sure it was banned long before then, and I don't remember teams talking about it.

The latest hydraulic system created by Ducati merely skirts the rule that bans electronic systems. The GPC never imagined someone nutty enough to flush shareholder cash down the toilet on a hydraulic system, but they clearly weren't thinking about Gigi, and his overlords at VW who are trying to flip Ducati.

Honestly, this entire situation just looks like a bunch of salty old Italians who won't let go of the unfair past (Gigi would have had a front-row seat at Aprilia GP in the early 90s), mixed with a bunch of Teutonic robber barrons, who previously floated the idea of selling Ducati, but now thanks to Gigi's chicanery (and talent) are looking to spin off the Italian brand.

Salty Italian motorsport mercenaries. Disoriented Japanese journeymen. Spanish snapping turtle. Political cloak-and-dagger. Corporate pillaging. It's not boring, but it's pretty shoddy compared to everyday geopolitics. They should stick to their gladiator games.
 
I wouldn't give them credit for either of those. While not as pronounce, the Kawasaki Zx12R had wings. As for the ride height devices. MX racers have been using them for decades.


ZX1200B_10-1280x852.jpg
I am aware of the mx use of a ride height device for the start but the one out of corners I don't think they use. I could be wrong but I don't see that working well in mx. Good to know about the wings I was careful not to use the word invent as I wasn't sure they were the first just the first I can remember putting winglets everywhere.
 
Ride height has been around the grand prix paddock for 30 years, though you could argue Ducati (by way of Cagiva) were the first manufacturer to introduce it. Cagiva eventually bailed on grand prix racing to campaign the Ducati 916 in Superbike, and I wouldn't be surprised if some backroom political wrangling eventually caused it. Ride height was explicitly banned in 2008, if I recall, but I'm sure it was banned long before then, and I don't remember teams talking about it.

The latest hydraulic system created by Ducati merely skirts the rule that bans electronic systems. The GPC never imagined someone nutty enough to flush shareholder cash down the toilet on a hydraulic system, but they clearly weren't thinking about Gigi, and his overlords at VW who are trying to flip Ducati.

Honestly, this entire situation just looks like a bunch of salty old Italians who won't let go of the unfair past (Gigi would have had a front-row seat at Aprilia GP in the early 90s), mixed with a bunch of Teutonic robber barrons, who previously floated the idea of selling Ducati, but now thanks to Gigi's chicanery (and talent) are looking to spin off the Italian brand.

Salty Italian motorsport mercenaries. Disoriented Japanese journeymen. Spanish snapping turtle. Political cloak-and-dagger. Corporate pillaging. It's not boring, but it's pretty shoddy compared to everyday geopolitics. They should stick to their gladiator games.
great post as always Lex.
 
I haven't read up on it, does the ride height device work during the whole race? Pedrosa was too small but you can do this?

That's messed up imo...
 
I haven't read up on it, does the ride height device work during the whole race? Pedrosa was too small but you can do this?

That's messed up imo...
Yep for the entire race now.
Oxley just printed an interview with Folger that’s worth a read. He explains the difference between the bikes when he left MotoGP compared to when he came back.
One of the things he does say is the bikes are harder to ride now but you can’t make up for a bikes short comings with talent/ride around problems anymore and they have to ridden in a certain way.
Does agree with Oxley that Yamaha and Honda are bringing motorbikes to the GP while the others are bringing two wheeled f1 cars.
He made it sound like it is really important to have the bike setup perfectly as well, so more reliance on pit crew and factories to be competitive because as above you can’t ride around the issues.
 
I haven't read up on it, does the ride height device work during the whole race? Pedrosa was too small but you can do this?

That's messed up imo...
Its a different device. The one for the start is the same as mx. It is a rudimentary device that locks the front in the compressed position until load on the front wheel unlocks it. The other one lowers the rear coming out of corners. I honestly have no idea how it works. I don't know if its a button they push or if its gps activated like their traction control. Maybe lex knows. Paging Lex to isle 9, Lex to isle 9 your services are needed. I do know that it is the most noticeable on the ktm.
 
Its a different device. The one for the start is the same as mx. It is a rudimentary device that locks the front in the compressed position until load on the front wheel unlocks it. The other one lowers the rear coming out of corners. I honestly have no idea how it works. I don't know if its a button they push or if its gps activated like their traction control. Maybe lex knows. Paging Lex to isle 9, Lex to isle 9 your services are needed. I do know that it is the most noticeable on the ktm.
If I understand the rules correctly you can't have electronic devices adjusting the height so it needs to be a mechanical device that the rider has to use, like turning a knob or a leaver etc.
 
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Its a different device. The one for the start is the same as mx. It is a rudimentary device that locks the front in the compressed position until load on the front wheel unlocks it. The other one lowers the rear coming out of corners. I honestly have no idea how it works. I don't know if its a button they push or if its gps activated like their traction control. Maybe lex knows. Paging Lex to isle 9, Lex to isle 9 your services are needed. I do know that it is the most noticeable on the ktm.
When you view a rider from the shoulder cam, at least on the Ducatis, they flip what appears to be a small lever with their left thumb coming out of corners onto a straight. Those guys seemingly have a lot to think about during a race.
 
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When you view a rider from the shoulder cam, at least on the Ducatis, they flip what appears to be a small lever with their left thumb coming out of corners onto a straight. Those guys seemingly have a lot to think about during a race.
Absotively . . . when I see photos of MotoGp dash and handlebar arrays, I can't help thinking that the rider must feel more like a tech-puppet operating all that ...., instead of a rider. It's amazing they can simultaneously operate all that stuff, which is IIRC, very "left-brain" activity, and continue to operate from their instinctual side. Gives me a headache just thinking about it. The thing I've always love about bikes is how direct and visceral the riding experience is. Get on it, start 'er up, punch in a map, and just go.
 
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Its a different device. The one for the start is the same as mx. It is a rudimentary device that locks the front in the compressed position until load on the front wheel unlocks it. The other one lowers the rear coming out of corners. I honestly have no idea how it works. I don't know if its a button they push or if its gps activated like their traction control. Maybe lex knows. Paging Lex to isle 9, Lex to isle 9 your services are needed. I do know that it is the most noticeable on the ktm.

Wish I could be the arbiter of fact and conjecture regarding ride height, but it's an opaque area of development, and very little leaks.

The official story is they push the button on the handlebar, and the ride height engages and disengages hydraulically based upon the attitude of the bike and suspension pressure/position of the rear shock. Reality is probably different than the official narrative, and some social media posts and interviews have alluded to ride height devices being nearly ungovernable. All suspension components are hydraulic so the issue is where the line is drawn. At what point does something become electronically-controlled; therefore, illegal? How do we police this line of demarcation?

The paddock seems to have rejected a set of regulations that they ratified about 2-2.5 years ago. This makes me think that the regulations for ride height have not been successful, sort of like the first attempt at tire pressure regulations (maybe the current attempt, too?). In other words, the GPC's long-held belief that ride height devices were unserviceable was the correct opinion all along.

But the manufacturers have been comfortable with loopholes in the past, Suzuki famously had a mechanical variable valve timing system, though variable valve timing was banned. So why does ride height scare them so much? Imo, a major onus for adopting ride height was Marquez. He was steamrolling the competition, and the Marc-Honda combination had cracked the 1000cc Michelin code, similar to what Bautista and Ducati are doing in World Superbike. The GPC was probably assuming another 5 years of Marquez domination because he was in his prime, and Dovi, Lorenzo, Pedrosa, Rossi were all fading away without any replacements. Unlike Rossi and Lorenzo before him, Marc was not moving to other manufacturer to keep the story interesting.

So imagine the frustration of the other MSMA members. Marquez won't switch teams, and the regulations are too stringent to allow other manufacturers to build a better mousetrap. So Ducati develops a hydraulic ride height system that works around the rules, and they rally the other manufacturers around ride height. I also wouldn't be surprised if the agreement to ratify ride height for 2022-2026 was Ducati giving the components to everyone to "keep costs down" (lol). This could be part of the reason the MSMA will not dump the system, despite its disastrous impact on MotoGP, turning grand prix racing into 2-wheel-F1. Front shapeshifters were not equally well received.

Marquez suffers a near career-ending injury in 2020, and over the last 3.5 seasons he's accomplished very little. This season he's flirting with another career ending injury because the Honda is so far off the pace. Furthermore, since 2022, Ducati have been unleashing the true potential of ride height devices and aero, and they have 8 bikes on the grid, so the other manufacturers are just as much deadwood now as during the height of Marquez.

By letting a snake into the garden, and by holding a few low-IQ rumination sessions, the MSMA have unleashed something that they now want to kill with fire.

True? Who knows. But it's an interesting story :D
 
You should try direct drive karts Kesh :)
Oh yeah . . . my step-dad used to race them out on Long Island. Went to a place several times a few years ago down in New Jersey and they were pretty fast. After a while the manager said, we knew the track too well and would we like to ride the track in the reverse direction. At one point, took a turn just a leetle too fast. The Kart hit damp grass outside the turn and I ended up going through a cyclone fence that had a lateral brace in one section, that was just at head-height. LOL. Rung my bell and ...... up my neck for weeks. I should have had my neck X-rayed, but didn't want to know to know what they'd find.
 
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