What can Honda and Yamaha do at this point to salvage the 2023 season

Barbedwirebikerr said:

Ezpeleta confirms: there will be concessions for Honda and Yamaha

Click to expand...

This is still subject to vote across other manufacturers. I wonder how Dorna will strongarm Ducati into accepting it since they seem the most uncooperative (quite ironical given they favored the most from previous concessions + the regulation changes over the years).

Keshav said:

OK historians, tell me this: Is this the first time a Japanese manufacturer has had to take concessions?

Click to expand...

Suzuki? Not entirely sure

In so called prototype racing, a manufacturer cant use the proper computer or the proper rubber to fit the bike...its a joke really.

Mrpurple said:

In so called prototype racing, a manufacturer cant use the proper computer or the proper rubber to fit the bike...its a joke really.

Click to expand...

That should be a concession for Honda and Yamaha, Goodyear tires.

Keshav said:

OK historians, tell me this: Is this the first time a Japanese manufacturer has had to take concessions?

Click to expand...

Suzuki

Barbedwirebikerr said:

Suzuki

Click to expand...

Gives that man a cigar!

Mrpurple said:

In so called prototype racing, a manufacturer cant use the proper computer or the proper rubber to fit the bike...its a joke really.

Click to expand...

It's complicated. Our theoretical knowledge of things overshadows our ability to fund and safely operate the systems we've developed. World Superbike had a tire war for a long time by regulating the profile of the tire. In the modern world of variable contact patch technology from Formula 1, that sort of simplistic regulation doesn't work. Component manufacturers lack the resources and motivation to develop a system of regs, and they are sometimes subject to upstream regulations. For instance, suspension manufacturers are impacted by the control tire specs.

In the grand scheme, the ongoing lack of business case (manufacturer, component supplier, sponsor) has been a key component in the decline of motorsport over the last 20-30 years. MotoGP skirted this decline by moving to 4-strokes, but the world has been turned upside down since the millennium by a global financial crisis, a pandemic, and disruptive global emissions regulations that abruptly abandoned the old system of displacement limitations. Ducati have successfully monetized motorsport by catering to the global asset-owning class, but how many motorcycle manufacturers can operate in this space?

Anyway, the issue is so huge it can't really be discussed in totality. Needless to say, the Repsol/RedBull/VW/Honda/Monster money is not unlimited. If the patchwork of FIM road racing series are not woven together with a coherent concept, motorcycle racing will go through a dark age. The ad hoc (imo) concessions for Honda and Yamaha are just a symptom of a much bigger disease.

Concessions now that the Honda has chewed up its best riders?

Whats the point?

Keshav said:

OK historians, tell me this: Is this the first time a Japanese manufacturer has had to take concessions?

Click to expand...

When concessions were bought in Honda and Yamaha were the top bikes, when Suzuki rejoined they had concessions

MichaelBolton said:

This is still subject to vote across other manufacturers. I wonder how Dorna will strongarm Ducati into accepting it since they seem the most uncooperative (quite ironical given they favored the most from previous concessions + the regulation changes over the years).

Click to expand...

They might agree if it is put that Honda and Yamaha might pull out

BTW could Honda and/or Yamaha change their Asian marketing to WSBK ?

WSBK makes a lot more sense financially, especially since Dorna wont let true prototypes in the big show.

Mrpurple said:

WSBK makes a lot more sense financially, especially since Dorna wont let true prototypes in the big show.

Click to expand...

Yeah, the line of demarcation between SBK and GP is thin. WSBK is the most performance you can buy from a manufacturer. MotoGP is the most performance you can lease from a manufacturer. Both bikes are extensively homologated, though SBK starts as a road-legal production machine. WSBK uses balance of performance, while MotoGP does not. The other differences are mostly immaterial. An SBK could use the MotoGP spec ECU, for instance, or the carbon brakes or the Michelin control tire.

The performance-governing regs are the primary difference keeping the classes separate. Spring-valve superbikes cannot run at the same rpm ceiling and power ouput as pneumatic 81mm MotoGP bikes, except maybe the Panigale V4R. But if Dorna manage to reduce the rev ceiling for 2027, there isn't anything (imo) prohibiting the return of CRT teams.

In my mind, that would set the table for next generation superbike rules, and effectively retire the 1000cc Superbikes as they exist now. They would instead become more similar to the RC213V-S that Honda built a decade ago. The manufacturers might not be opposed, since they could make road-going variants of their GP race bikes, and then GP would have a direct sales connection to the consumer market. If MotoGP is toying with this direction, it might explain why Suzuki departed. The return of homologation specials in SBK effectively prompted their withdrawal from SBK. It's possible that the winds of change in the GPC drove them out of MotoGP, too. Who knows?

Let me ask this then:

Which of either Honda or Yamaha has a better chance of getting their act together quicker, or at all (either this year or next), to get on the podium regularly ?

- My guess is Honda.

Which of either Honda or Yamaha is looking for an excuse to pack it all in ?

- My guess is neither.

DavidSim said:

Let me ask this then:

Which of either Honda or Yamaha has a better chance of getting their act together quicker, or at all (either this year or next), to get on the podium regularly ?

- My guess is Honda.

Which of either Honda or Yamaha is looking for an excuse to pack it all in ?

- My guess is neither.

Click to expand...

I would also say honda however yamaha seems to be closer to having things right. The honda isn't a good bike in any way shape or form. The yamaha just seems to be lacking usable power.

Mrpurple said:

Concessions now that the Honda has chewed up its best riders?

Whats the point?

Click to expand...

Are concessions an agreement to help them attract good riders? If you've got other options, even if you have to wait a year are you jumping on a Honda?

I suspect the development of the ecu and tires have favored the Duke for years now...would MM be crashing so much if he had a tire that fits the front end?

Whats more important on a bike than the tires? Concessions like more engines or fuel wont fix that.

Mrpurple said:

I suspect the development of the ecu and tires have favored the Duke for years now...would MM be crashing so much if he had a tire that fits the front end?

Whats more important on a bike than the tires? Concessions like more engines or fuel wont fix that.

Click to expand...

I think the concessions also include more testing.

My guess is that the will just get more testing as they don't comply with the concession rules so they won't automatically get all the concessions

Mrpurple said:

I suspect the development of the ecu and tires have favored the Duke for years now...would MM be crashing so much if he had a tire that fits the front end?

Whats more important on a bike than the tires? Concessions like more engines or fuel wont fix that.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't claim that the rules favor Ducati outright, but I would say that the GPC ignored the signs that forewarned of Ducati's dominance, after the sanctioning commission allowed the adoption of hydraulic ride height devices. Based upon the timing of Ducati's ascendancy (immediately after the teams ratified the 2022-2026 technical regulations), it also looks like the commission may have been duped.

I could be wrong, but I sense that Ducati and Gigi burned a lot of bridges with the moves they've made in the recent past. The MSMA unified to squash front shapeshifters, and Ducati's introduction seems to have offended the sensibilities of the paddock. I suspect they have few allies within the GPC, and the 8 bikes they supply is the only trump card in their possession. If this card is taken away, I suspect Ducati may find themselves as isolated as they were in 2007. Gigi et al will probably have cashed in by then, but I don't know where it will leave Ducati.

Ducati have been an innovator and each time that Ducati brings an idea to racing the other manufacturers have to copy, some of those are obvious such as the spoon and others are less obvious such as the sharing of data between all Ducati riders.

When did Ducati loose their concessions?

mikesbytes said:

Ducati have been an innovator and each time that Ducati brings an idea to racing the other manufacturers have to copy, some of those are obvious such as the spoon and others are less obvious such as the sharing of data between all Ducati riders.

When did Ducati loose their concessions?

Click to expand...

Please tell us what Ducati invented?
1) Daimler-Benz first patented a desmodromic valve-train system for a V-twin equipped car back in 1889.
2) Single-sided swingarms date from at least the late 1940s. In 1948, the Imme R100 produced by Norbert Riedel of Germany had both a single-sided front wheel suspension as well as a single-sided rear swingarm that doubled as the exhaust pipe.

They Ducati are very good at circumventing/exploiting the rules. I guess you could call that innovation.