VR46 onthe Ferrari F1

In the last couple of days Valentino Rossi tested the Ferrari F1 at Mugello.
http://www.gpone.com/
It was a serious test, all important bosses present, although Rossi minimized it as 'playing'.

But is it just playing? He tested for two days (the second day in the wet) and pushed it hard enough to clock a lap in 1.22.5 on the dry, which is just 1.5 seconds slower than Kimi Raikkonnen's best lap time in a similar recent test on the same car.

That's fast for a rookie. I am wondering... Rossi really loves the idea of going to F1. In 2006 he didn't because--he himself said--wanted to leave MotoGP as World Champion. Now he is. If Ferrari would take him onboard for 2009, would the recently signed Yamaha contract (which is sponsored by Fiat, the owner of Ferrari btw) be a real obstacle?

Who knows..

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Nov 22 2008, 06:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>In the last couple of days Valentino Rossi tested the Ferrari F1 at Mugello.
http://www.gpone.com/
It was a serious test, all important bosses present, although Rossi minimized it as 'playing'.

But is it just playing? He tested for two days (the second day in the wet) and pushed it hard enough to clock a lap in 1.22.5 on the dry, which is just 1.5 seconds slower than Kimi Raikkonnen's best lap time in a similar recent test on the same car.

That's fast for a rookie. I am wondering... Rossi really loves the idea of going to F1. In 2006 he didn't because--he himself said--wanted to leave MotoGP as World Champion. Now he is. If Ferrari would take him onboard for 2009, would the recently signed Yamaha contract (which is sponsored by Fiat, the owner of Ferrari btw) be a real obstacle?

Who knows..
I have wondered in the past whether he might look elsewhere after winning his 6th championship, but he has seemed fairly definite of late about completing his yamaha contract. However he also doesn't like the current electronics etc and lack of close racing, and it is possible that honda or ducati may come up with bikes he can't beat next year. I can't see that retiring with 7 or 8 championships rather than 6 would add to his legend much, whilst he is risking not going out a winner as he wishes if he keeps going. I am sure F1 and ferrari would love to have him if as seems likely he could be competitive. I guess money would also come in to it, and in normal times there might be plenty of money available to him in both F1 and motogp, but these are not normal times.

I think overall there are some grounds for your speculation.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Nov 22 2008, 01:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>...I can't see that retiring with 7 or 8 championships rather than 6 would add to his legend much...

<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%<span style="font-family:ArialHow can it not add to his legend, by winning 8 Championships he would tie Agostini at MotoGP. However, having lost it for two years and recover it not just once, it would mean three after losing it to get to 8. In addition, increasing his wins to try to break all time all classes 123 top which is still far but not impossible.

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vid

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Nov 22 2008, 08:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%<span style="font-family:ArialHow can it not add to his legend, by winning 8 Championships he would tie Agostini at MotoGP. However, having lost it for two years and recover it not just once, it would mean three after losing it to get to 8. In addition, increasing his wins to try to break all time all classes 123 top which is still far but not impossible.
Don't most people think he is better than agostini anyway?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Nov 23 2008, 09:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Don't most people think he is better than agostini anyway?

The eternal debate of all sports - comparing masters of different generations. I do agree that most people (fans) today would think he is better than agostini, but with the lack of TV & net coverage how many, even if they were old enough, really saw enough of agostini, other than though glorified written accounts, to judge?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Nov 23 2008, 06:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The eternal debate of all sports - comparing masters of different generations. I do agree that most people (fans) today would think he is better than agostini, but with the lack of TV & net coverage how many, even if they were old enough, really saw enough of agostini, other than though glorified written accounts, to judge?

No need of TV sometimes... All the champions of those years came to my native town of Imola every year to race,--the likes of Agostini, Read, Hailwood, Ivy, Taveri, Carruthers and later Roberts, Sheene, Spencer, Ferrari, Mamola, Lucchinelli, etc. My father took me to see races also in Pesaro, Modena, Misano and Monza every year, for many years before I could go on my own.

I can tell, and it is almost universally accepted among those who 'know' , that Hailwood was a line (however thin) better than Agostini. Saarinen also was a line above Ago, beating him in almost every race in which they met in the 2-3 years of his short career. Even my childhood hero Renzo Pasolini managed to beat Agostini quite a few times on his Benelli, here in Italy.

This is off topic however... I suggested Rossi might jump to F1 because he wants to be the greatest. Adding an F1 title to his palmares would help him more in becoming a legend, than another 2 titles in MotoGP.

<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%<span style="font-family:Arial<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Nov 22 2008, 08:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>

<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%<span style="font-family:ArialDon't most people think he is better than agostini anyway?

<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%<span style="font-family:Arial

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Nov 22 2008, 10:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The eternal debate of all sports - comparing masters of different generations. I do agree that most people (fans) today would think he is better than agostini, but with the lack of TV & net coverage how many, even if they were old enough, really saw enough of agostini, other than though glorified written accounts, to judge?

<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%<span style="font-family:ArialRight, statistics do not say everything, and comparing different generations will always be tough. Who knows if Rossi could win two Classes the same season? (I would love to see him kick butt). Who knows if Agostini could have mastered today’s electronics? Therefore, I do consider Rossi the Greatest of all Times, with my limitation of knowledge before his era and based upon Statistics.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Nov 23 2008, 11:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>No need of TV sometimes... All the champions of those years came to my native town of Imola every year to race,--the likes of Agostini, Read, Hailwood, Ivy, Taveri, Carruthers and later Roberts, Sheene, Spencer, Ferrari, Mamola, Lucchinelli, etc. My father took me to see races also in Pesaro, Modena, Misano and Monza every year, for many years before I could go on my own.

I can tell, and it is almost universally accepted among those who 'know' , that Hailwood was a line (however thin) better than Agostini. Saarinen also was a line above Ago, beating him in almost every race in which they met in the 2-3 years of his short career. Even my childhood hero Renzo Pasolini managed to beat Agostini quite a few times on his Benelli, here in Italy.

This is off topic however... I suggested Rossi might jump to F1 because he wants to be the greatest. Adding an F1 title to his palmares would help him more in becoming a legend, than another 2 titles in MotoGP.

Great post. Thanks. I started following the races in Europe in the late 70's and there's so much I've forgotten.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Nov 23 2008, 09:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>No need of TV sometimes... All the champions of those years came to my native town of Imola every year to race,--the likes of Agostini, Read, Hailwood, Ivy, Taveri, Carruthers and later Roberts, Sheene, Spencer, Ferrari, Mamola, Lucchinelli, etc. My father took me to see races also in Pesaro, Modena, Misano and Monza every year, for many years before I could go on my own.

I can tell, and it is almost universally accepted among those who 'know' , that Hailwood was a line (however thin) better than Agostini. Saarinen also was a line above Ago, beating him in almost every race in which they met in the 2-3 years of his short career. Even my childhood hero Renzo Pasolini managed to beat Agostini quite a few times on his Benelli, here in Italy.

Sorry J4rn0, how old were you when pop took you to races? Who are those in the "know". I come from the Ben Franklin school of knowledge and wholeheartedly value his doctrine, “Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.” There is absolutely no way to intergenerationally compare talent. Was DaVinci more talented than Van Gogh? Was Beethoven more talented than the Beatles? Times change and so does the yardstick used to judge said talent. There is no way you'll convince me that you have somehow divined the answers.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Nov 23 2008, 09:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sorry J4rn0, how old were you when pop took you to races? Who are those in the "know". I come from the Ben Franklin school of knowledge and wholeheartedly value his doctrine, “Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.” There is absolutely no way to intergenerationally compare talent. Was DaVinci more talented than Van Gogh? Was Beethoven more talented than the Beatles? Times change and so does the yardstick used to judge said talent. There is no way you'll convince me that you have somehow divined the answers.
You are of course correct that the inevitable conclusion any time the topic of the GOAT is raised is that different generations cannot be really compared and such has been the conclusion several times on this forum.

However in terms of rossi's legend perception is all and as you said whether erroneously or not (I go with not) rossi is at present generally regarded as the greatest. I think j4rno's point with which I agree is that after 6 wins he is currently regarded as the greatest; I think even ago realises this and is not necessarily happy. If rossi retires after 2009 with 7 wins or after 2010 with 8 wins he will be regarded as.... the greatest. If someone else wins these 2 championships even if by technical advantage in my view (not necessarily j4rno's) it may just detract from his legend somewhat as compared to now when he has just trounced the next generation of challengers.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Nov 24 2008, 09:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You are of course correct that the inevitable conclusion any time the topic of the GOAT is raised is that different generations cannot be really compared and such has been the conclusion several times on this forum.

However in terms of rossi's legend perception is all and as you said whether erroneously or not (I go with not) rossi is at present generally regarded as the greatest. I think j4rno's point with which I agree is that after 6 wins he is currently regarded as the greatest; I think even ago realises this and is not necessarily happy. If rossi retires after 2009 with 7 wins or after 2010 with 8 wins he will be regarded as.... the greatest. If someone else wins these 2 championships even if by technical advantage in my view (not necessarily j4rno's) it may just detract from his legend somewhat as compared to now when he has just trounced the next generation of challengers.

Even being new here I should have realised that y'all had covered that debate more than once over!!!

Agree with your analysis. Retire now (and go to F1? - relax, I know its not happening) and the legend stands stronger than if he continues and fails to dominate. I wonder what he's thinking in his own mind... he's mentally and physically still up for it and probably would like to crush any and all records/stats that he hasn't already... another challenge to keep his fire lit!!

Pretty impressive times.
Surely winning MotoGP and then winning F1 would make Valentino more or a legend that winning more MotoGP.
I would love to see it, but I seriously doubt he will go to F1.
And anyway, both Ferrari drivers are contracted for 2009 (and I think 2010) so there are no drives free.

Impressive times at one test, with no other cars on track, are a long way short of being competative. Ferrari will not gamble on an inexperienced driver - not even Valentino.
That asside, bloody impressive times, and probably as good or better than most experienced F3 drivers could do.

Get the feeling Valentino is getting bored with MotoGP and looking for another challenge.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Nov 23 2008, 09:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Don't most people think he is better than agostini anyway?

A past business associate of mine in Italy is a close friend of Agostine and he told me some two years ago that Agostine rated Rossi as the greatest of all time.

Rossi is a risk taker. When he moved from Honda to Yamaha a lot of people thought he was being foolish. Also, I think Rossi feels the need to make the move to F1 for the money, given his tax problems. Some of the drivers get paid 3 times as much as the MotoGP stars.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crvlvr @ Nov 25 2008, 06:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Rossi is a risk taker. When he moved from Honda to Yamaha a lot of people thought he was being foolish. Also, I think Rossi feels the need to make the move to F1 for the money, given his tax problems. Some of the drivers get paid 3 times as much as the MotoGP stars.

Rossi is a calculated risk-taker and seems to do very well indeed on his gambles whether it be on the bike or in life. "Tax problems", another calculated risk which payed off - in the end the negotiated settlement was about half of what was legally owed. All in Rossi's is one of the best paid athlete's in the world and the highest paid motorsports competitor, since Michael retired (figures from 2006):

1 Tiger Woods (Golf) $90m
2 Mchael Schumacher (Formula One) $58m
3 Phil Mickelson (Golf) $47m
4 Kobe Bryant (Basketball) $31m
5 Shaquille O'Neal (Basketball) $30m
5 Valentino Rossi (MotoGP) $30m
7 Alex Rodriguez (Baseball) $29m
7 Tom Brady (American Football) $29m
9 Carson Palmer (American Football) $28m
10 David Beckham (Football) $27m

So money's not an issue.

CRVLVR, do you do any research before you post, or just go with whatever BS comes out?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Nov 23 2008, 10:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sorry J4rn0, how old were you when pop took you to races? Who are those in the "know". I come from the Ben Franklin school of knowledge and wholeheartedly value his doctrine, “Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.” There is absolutely no way to intergenerationally compare talent. Was DaVinci more talented than Van Gogh? Was Beethoven more talented than the Beatles? Times change and so does the yardstick used to judge said talent. There is no way you'll convince me that you have somehow divined the answers.

Don't get the point Mick. Comparing Agostini and Hailwood, and Saarinen, is not at all inter-generational comparisons. They raced against each other... I saw them racing against each other, and even if I was 8 years old I can remember those races very well. And results are there on record for all to read.
About being 'in the know', well, one either is or is not... I assume in each country there are experts, insiders, and then just fans and outsiders It is a matter of the environment in which one grew up, and people one comes to know.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Nov 26 2008, 11:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Don't get the point Mick. Comparing Agostini and Hailwood, and Saarinen, is not at all inter-generational comparisons. They raced against each other... I saw them racing against each other, and even if I was 8 years old I can remember those races very well. And results are there on record for all to read.

I believe my post which started this discussion was:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Nov 23 2008, 11:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The eternal debate of all sports - comparing masters of different generations. I do agree that most people (fans) today would think he is better than agostini, but with the lack of TV & net coverage how many, even if they were old enough, really saw enough of agostini, other than though glorified written accounts, to judge?

The point was we were "comparing masters of different generations" and when you brought up Agostini, Hailwood, and Saarinen I assumed you were continuing that discussion, not just the ones you have been fortunate enough to have witnessed (and believe me, I'm jealous). Does that clarify?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Nov 26 2008, 07:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I believe my post which started this discussion was:



The point was we were "comparing masters of different generations" and when you brought up Agostini, Hailwood, and Saarinen I assumed you were continuing that discussion, not just the ones you have been fortunate enough to have witnessed (and believe me, I'm jealous). Does that clarify?

No worries!