Voting with your (remote control) thumb?

Zootalaws · Oct 16, 2012

stiefel said:
Well, like I said in my opening post, discussing whether I'm justified in feeling the way I feel about things does not change a lot for me.

You don't need to justify yourself. If you're bored, you're bored. If you aren't enjoying it, finding a way of justifying that won't make it any better.

I am interested in what you are going to do instead, though. What sport, if any, is going to take the place of GP racing?

Me, I'm easily pleased - just as happy watching yacht racing, WRC, trials, F1, Indy, Jet Sprint, Rally Raid... I don't mind. But if GP racing should stop tomorrow, I would be devastated.

Wouldn't have a care if SBK stopped though... just wouldn't miss it.

Bsnell · Oct 16, 2012

Zootalaws said:
.

Wouldn't have a care if SBK stopped though... just wouldn't miss it.

Pray tell? I'm just curious as the last few GP races i've looked at the results to see if anything interesting happened and watched the highlights if so. I take it you mean WSBK, if so i'm the opposite to you in that i've been hooked to it all year. GP used to be the only thing that kept me going out on my Blade, now if the sun is out on a GP day I don't even think twice about going for a thrash around the locals, even if the pigs do get pissed at me

thedeal · Oct 16, 2012

Zootalaws said:
I think banning 'CRT' bikes in the first place did much damage to the sport. It allowed Superbike to flourish and take away from GP racing.

In fact, 'too many rules' seems to be the problem. The factories are fighting for the last hundredth of a second and are prepared to pay big to get that, because they are so limited in what they are allowed to do.

If there was no limit on engines, tyres, fuel, cylinders, 'stroke', weight or electronics, jus a cc limit, there would be a bunch more teams contesting the championship and a lot more interesting technology would be allowed to strut its stuff.

No doubt it would always end up with v configuration twins, triples and fours, because power for pound they make the most sense. But there might also be some wicked rotaries, radials, push-me-pull-yous... radical new designs that would shake up the motorcycle world. But we'll never know, because the 'show' is so limited in its view.

It doesn't matter though, I don't care if they are running 80cc v8s, I will still watch. I've been doing it for more than fourty years, I'm not going to stop now just because CRT bikes are racing. Contrary to what a lot of poster have said, I still find it fascinating, still get a buzz even when its some guy running off at the front 20 seconds in the lead. I find the balls-out racing of Espargaro and De Puniet as they chase down the factory prototypes a real draw - I want to see them get new hardware and start to show the factories that spending $5M doesn't necessarily ensure you are faster, that a quick RIDER on a half-million dollar 'spec' bike can beat your high-tech money-pit.

I will miss Stoner, but Rossi should be making things interesting next year. If Pedrosa carries on as he has this season, he will be a force to be reckoned with and his new team-mate has to elbow his way into the big-boys club. Jorge will continue to make cutting wise-cracks while proceeding to blandly ride a bike faster than just about anyone on the planet. Cal will cuss and swear and smile and crash and carry on having a ....... awesome time! Bradders will stolidly go about learning how to ride these things fast. Iannone will piss off a lot of people, will crash a bit and will fulfil his monicker of being 'Crazy Joe'. Abraham will have to learn how to ride a CRT, which after his foray with Ducati will probably come as a pleasant surprise - I think he will surprise a few naysayers, too. Bradl and Bautista will be more of the same... Bradl might find it a bit tougher without Spies there to make him look good

And all the while I will be eagerly anticipating the day that Suzuki/Kawasaki/Aprilia/MV/BMW/Norton announce a return to GP racing... and the rules Carmelo will put in place to further level the field.

Because that's why I watch - to see people race. I don't much care what it is they race as long as it isn't a spec bike and as long as there is drama. I want to see crazy Italians gesticulating, Brits chewing up the furniture, Spaniards fighting to cement their place, Americans hanging it out, Australians pissing off fanboys.

You guys can head on off to midget cars or Superbike or whatever it is you watch when you're not watching GP racing.

Me, I'll be glued to my seat, watching every minute of every race and as much footage of teams, riders and managers as I can track down. What else would I be doing? Watching horses?

Love it, ill be doing the same.

Kropotkin · Oct 16, 2012

povol said:
With the right program and rider, they should be competitive in 2 years, contending for wins in 3. So lets say 150 million over the course of 3 years. Getting the stud rider is paramount. Kawasaki made their bed. If they had stayed, the curve wouldnt be as drastic.Same with Suzuki. They played the game on the cheap for the decade, now want a performance reset to come crawling back. .... em.

Care to name a manufacturer that has a spare 150 million and two years to potentially match Honda and Yamaha in the current economic climate?

Kropotkin · Oct 16, 2012

stnd said:
Now. There was never disparity on the grid before, both in popularity and competition. It's a completely new phenomenon in racing not to mention all sports.

I guess you missed the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and early '00s. First there was the Norton Manx, then there was the TZ350s running in the 500s, then there were the privateer RG500s, the ROC Yamahas, etc etc. Disparity has always existed.

Zootalaws · Oct 16, 2012

Bsnell said:
Pray tell? I'm just curious as the last few GP races i've looked at the results to see if anything interesting happened and watched the highlights if so. I take it you mean WSBK, if so i'm the opposite to you in that i've been hooked to it all year. GP used to be the only thing that kept me going out on my Blade, now if the sun is out on a GP day I don't even think twice about going for a thrash around the locals, even if the pigs do get pissed at me

Probably for many of the same reasons that posters here are saying they will be departing from GP racing... I just don't like watching SBK.

I love it at the track, Brands is one of my favourite, but on TV I find it a real yawn.

It is one of those 'chicken and egg' things... you have to watch it to enjoy it - I don't enjoy it, so I don't watch it.

cliche guevara · Oct 16, 2012

Zootalaws said:
It's what? Oh. OK...

so what are we losing out on? the regulations are way too tight for any real innovation,its just fine tuning of 4 cylinder 81mm bore engines.

where real progress could be made is with 2 stroke direct injection,and racing could certainly speed up the process.

but 4 strokes?

the way i see it : current regs = no innovation possible ; open rule book to make way for real prototyping = financially unsustainable and the sport collapses

i can respect the tech heads that get a hard on when they read about partial throttle fuel efficiency and ultra lean combustion but frankly i'm watching to see the riders and other stuff i can actually see or hear at the track.

povol · Oct 16, 2012

Kropotkin said:
Care to name a manufacturer that has a spare 150 million and two years to potentially match Honda and Yamaha in the current economic climate?

Pretty much any of them have 50 million a year if they wanted to go racing. That is not an exorbitant amount of money to race at the pinnacle of the motorcycle world. Hell, it cost 30 million a year to run a top flight Nascar team. How far do we cheapen the sport so slackers can play. Its not about money in my opinion. Its about them wanting some kind of assurance that they wont be sucking hind ..., and thats not the real world. Just more of the i want it now, instant gratification mindset that prevails across society at large. We dont want to actually have to work to be competitive, we want you to lower your standards for us to be competitive. Again, .... em.

Zootalaws · Oct 16, 2012

cliché guevara said:
so what are we losing out on? the regulations are way too tight for any real innovation,its just fine tuning of 4 cylinder 81mm bore engines.

where real progress could be made is with 2 stroke direct injection,and racing could certainly speed up the process.

but 4 strokes?

the way i see it : current regs = no innovation possible ; open rule book to make way for real prototyping = financially unsustainable and the sport collapses

i can respect the tech heads that get a hard on when they read about partial throttle fuel efficiency and ultra lean combustion but frankly i'm watching to see the riders and other stuff i can actually see or hear at the track.

I don't disagree with most of that, I think I have said much of it myself, in this thread, no less.

But... all of which is completely different than the blanket statement "the (4 stroke) combustion engine is at a dead end anyways".

There is a ways to go with 4-strokes yet. Ceramic bearings and cylinder coatings, advances in combustion chamber technology, improvements in injection systems, pneumatic valves and other induction systems...

Kropotkin · Oct 16, 2012

povol said:
Pretty much any of them have 50 million a year if they wanted to go racing. That is not an exorbitant amount of money to race at the pinnacle of the motorcycle world. Hell, it cost 30 million a year to run a top flight Nascar team. How far do we cheapen the sport so slackers can play. Its not about money in my opinion. Its about them wanting some kind of assurance that they wont be sucking hind ..., and thats not the real world. Just more of the i want it now, instant gratification mindset that prevails across society at large. We dont want to actually have to work to be competitive, we want you to lower your standards for us to be competitive. Again, .... em.

Welcome to the Honda World Championship.

Of course, it would be nice if Honda actually made a financial contribution to the sport, instead of sucking Dorna's coffers dry, but you can't have everything.

Your copy of Atlas Shrugged must be very well thumbed.

Bsnell · Oct 16, 2012

Zootalaws said:
I don't disagree with most of that, I think I have said much of it myself, in this thread, no less.

But... all of which is completely different than the blanket statement "the (4 stroke) combustion engine is at a dead end anyways".

There is a ways to go with 4-strokes yet. Ceramic bearings and cylinder coatings, advances in combustion chamber technology, improvements in injection systems, pneumatic valves and other induction systems...

There is also technology beyond 4 strokes which as we know in terms of energy production are relatively inefficient.

povol · Oct 16, 2012

Kropotkin said:
Welcome to the Honda World Championship.

Of course, it would be nice if Honda actually made a financial contribution to the sport, instead of sucking Dorna's coffers dry, but you can't have everything.

Your copy of Atlas Shrugged must be very well thumbed.

Yamaha seems to be doing very well in the Honda World Championship. Last time i looked, they had 6 of the last 10 titles, and most certainly headed for 7 of the last 11. All the while spending considerably less money to do it. It can be done. Just out of curiosity, how far are you willing to cheapen the sport to bribe slackers into playing.

Kropotkin · Oct 16, 2012

povol said:
Yamaha seems to be doing very well in the Honda World Championship. Last time i looked, they had 6 of the last 10 titles, and most certainly headed for 7 of the last 11. All the while spending considerably less money to do it. It can be done. Just out of curiosity, how far are you willing to cheapen the sport to bribe slackers into playing.

It should cost 10 million euros a year to compete, not 50, not 70. About what BMW were spending in WSBK, until they decided that even that was too expensive.

And I just looked at Suzuki's financials: they lost 2 billion Yen last year on their motorcycle division, or about 20 million euros.

Kropotkin · Oct 16, 2012

povol said:
Yamaha seems to be doing very well in the Honda World Championship. Last time i looked, they had 6 of the last 10 titles, and most certainly headed for 7 of the last 11. All the while spending considerably less money to do it. It can be done. Just out of curiosity, how far are you willing to cheapen the sport to bribe slackers into playing.

Oh, and Yamaha are just squeaking by financially. Despite their success, they can't get a title sponsor. The reason they hired Rossi was because their sponsorship guy said this was their only hope of finding a sponsor for the bike. If they hadn't hired Rossi - or if Rossi doesn't provide a title sponsor, either directly or indirectly - Yamaha won't last another 4 years in the championship, if the rules do not change. In 2011 Jarvis told me it would be hard to finish 2012 without a title sponsor, so things are tough.

povol · Oct 16, 2012

Kropotkin said:
It should cost 10 million euros a year to compete, not 50, not 70. About what BMW were spending in WSBK, until they decided that even that was too expensive.

And I just looked at Suzuki's financials: they lost 2 billion Yen last year on their motorcycle division, or about 20 million euros.

Then what your advocating is turning Moto GP into a World Superbike series. No thanks, we have one. How would F1 fans react to turning that sport into CART.

Kropotkin · Oct 16, 2012

povol said:
Then what your advocating is turning Moto GP into a World Superbike series. No thanks, we have one. How would F1 fans react to turning that sport into CART.

They love it. F1 budgets have been slashed from around an average of 350 million a year to half that. Ferrari were spending the best part of half a billion dollars, and now are spending just over 200 million. The cars have been dumbed down to an incredible degree, with a spec engine design, development freeze, spec ECU, and all sorts of idiocy like DRS and KERS. I don't even know what DRS means or how it works. Yet F1 is seeing its popularity increase.

I honestly understand your point, and I feel your pain. I, too, would like to have pure prototypes in the class - but then again, I'd like to have proper open rules, governed only by an energy limit, with turbos, two strokes and diesels in the class as well - but none of the factories want to play that game. They want to rig the rules in their favor. That's what I object to. You object to levelling the field and punishing the winners. I can understand that. But if MotoGP were to carry on with the 2012 ruleset, the sport would be dead in five years.

cliche guevara · Oct 16, 2012

did i get that right that dorna asked (again) for a proposal from the msma for new regs?

if yes (and ideally other manufacturers are invited to join the debate) ,whats holding them back to design a new rulebook that allows innovative prototyping of some sort, be it 2 strokes, diesels,turbos or whatever ?costs could surely be capped in some way at least so that the budget does not necessarily exceed 30mill.

i think its relatively simple, at the moment nobody is seemingly willing to really try something new in racing. what is in the manufacturers interest (or should i say hondas) is to create or maintain a system that prohibits real innovation but rewards spending(electronics which will never be of any real use for street bikes) to exclude competition.

who benefits from that?nobody except the marketing division of honda who can point to their dominance in racing (for stated reasons) and use that to sell more stuff to the public that is influenced by seeing honda as the rulers of gp racing.

i can't help but see it this way.

until the manufacturers are ready to really try something new the sport can only benefit from what some people call dumbing it down, or as i would say , giving it back into the riders hands.who really cares if the guys go a second slower but you can actually see them doing something special by wrestling these bikes around

.... fake prototyping,its ruining the sport (this is supposed to be a sport first of all ,right?)

stnd · Oct 16, 2012

Kropotkin said:
I guess you missed the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and early '00s. First there was the Norton Manx, then there was the TZ350s running in the 500s, then there were the privateer RG500s, the ROC Yamahas, etc etc. Disparity has always existed.

I was being sarcastic, thought the roll eye smiley would convey that. We are on the same page when it comes to disparity in sports.

Kropotkin · Oct 16, 2012

stnd said:
I was being sarcastic, thought the roll eye smiley would convey that. We are on the same page when it comes to disparity in sports.

Sorry, irony fail.... Thanks!

povol · Oct 16, 2012

Kropotkin said:
They love it. F1 budgets have been slashed from around an average of 350 million a year to half that. Ferrari were spending the best part of half a billion dollars, and now are spending just over 200 million. The cars have been dumbed down to an incredible degree, with a spec engine design, development freeze, spec ECU, and all sorts of idiocy like DRS and KERS. I don't even know what DRS means or how it works. Yet F1 is seeing its popularity increase.

I honestly understand your point, and I feel your pain. I, too, would like to have pure prototypes in the class - but then again, I'd like to have proper open rules, governed only by an energy limit, with turbos, two strokes and diesels in the class as well - but none of the factories want to play that game. They want to rig the rules in their favor. That's what I object to. You object to levelling the field and punishing the winners. I can understand that. But if MotoGP were to carry on with the 2012 ruleset, the sport would be dead in five years.

DRS is Drag Reduction System. If you are within 1 second of the car in front of, you have the ability to open a slot in the rear wing that allows less drag, with that and a draft, you can make up some serious ground on the car in front of you. Its allowed only in the straights. Its ........ and i hate it. Basically, you can drive your ... off to get a little separation , only to have the car behind you make it all up on the straight. F1 has been dumbed down, but nowhere near as much as were talking here. I also think i read the other day where Ferrari still spends around 350 million, but after all the money they get back from F1 in Constructor funds and other bonuses, maybe 200 million is what it costs them. If they finish second in constructors cup, they will take home more money than Redbull who will more than likely win the constructor championship. They have several bonuses, like past performance, and longevity bonuses that other teams dont get. The other teams dont complain because having them there legitimizes the series. Anywho, what works for F1 isnt automatically going to work for GP. I personally feel that the .... tires that fall off after 6-7 laps, and eliminating fuel strategy has done more to hamper the elite teams and created " closer racing" . Its still not what i would call close racing, just closer racing. Using .... tires on a car is a whole different animal than using .... tires on a bike. When your .... tires let you down in a car, 99.9% of the time, your going to slide harmlessly into a gravel trap. When your .... tires let you down on a bike, the results can be life altering or worse. Obviously, any decision they make is going to alienate a portion of the teams and fan base, they just need to make a decision and live with it. Im tired of the uncertainty.

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