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How much does Yamaha spend? How much does Honda spend?



As you have said on a couple of occasions here, its extremely hard to pin down what factories pay to go Moto GP racing. But i do recall a conversation where you said Jarvis told you personally that the figure for Yamaha was south of 50 million. It seems at one point that Honda was talking about spending 100 million and instructed the teams to get that down to the 65-70 million range. That was when they were cutting Dovi loose, and talking about not giving Sic a factory spec bike because of budget cuts. Who knows, but if i had to bet, Honda spends more than Yamaha to go GP racing.
 
As bad as we all think it is, as soon as you get to the track, it all feels real good again.



That may be the tequila & Woods talking compa.
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As you have said on a couple of occasions here, its extremely hard to pin down what factories pay to go Moto GP racing. But i do recall a conversation where you said Jarvis told you personally that the figure for Yamaha was south of 50 million. It seems at one point that Honda was talking about spending 100 million and instructed the teams to get that down to the 65-70 million range. That was when they were cutting Dovi loose, and talking about not giving Sic a factory spec bike because of budget cuts. Who knows, but if i had to bet, Honda spends more than Yamaha to go GP racing.



Those numbers are essentially correct. So it costs between 40 and 50 million a year to beat Honda, plus at least 10 years of experience. How much would it cost, say, Kawasaki to catch up with Honda?
 
The only thing you can hope for in a professional sport is some form of integrity. That is about ensuring the reasonableness of the rules and the fairness of their application.



You nailed it on the head here for me. In my opinion MotoGP has lost its integrity. It did this by reacting the way it did to the wrong person winning. The fact that it even has a wrong person means it has no integrity as a sport.



Picking up on another comment made about the rule changes so others can catch up. GP racing would have had no product if Yamaha and Honda had not continuously participated over the decades. Yet Dorna has made them out to be the bad guy because they have done exactly what racing is all about. They participated and the strived to always be better so they could win against all others. Now, because Dorna fell asleep at the wheel for the past decade by loosing control of the sport and failing to promote the sport due to their promotion of Rossi, Honda particularly and Yamaha who are the ones who have spent the money so Dorna and Rossi can make the money are being scape goated.



I have argued before that there is no cost problems in MotoGP, there are revenue problems. I think $50million is perfectly reasonable to spend to compete at the pinnacle of a motor sport comp. Krop ypou have argued yourself before that as soon as a Team picks up a new sponsor Dorna pounces on them and steals them to sponsor a race. This is one reason why there is a lack of revenues for other manufacturers to enter. The primary reason however is the lack of integrity. As I have stated before, with a clear bias in the promotion of the sport to one rider why would ANY business looking to spend dollars on sponsorship put their money any where else but on this rider? A final component of the lack of revenue is Dorna have been negative about their own business for several years now. Constantly talking it down. Constantly saying it is too expensive. Constantly saying that the show is no good. How does this instil confidence in other manufacturers to enter or sponsors to spend money?



The reason MotoGP is where it is, is because it lacks integrity.
 
What is sport? What is a pure sport? How do you make MotoGP a pure sport? Was there ever a time when MotoGP was a pure sport?



I was going to answer that an appeal to the philosophical underpinnings of any sport is an exercise in futility.



But everything balances out.



The sport may have been pure prior to television, but it became a business. What they didn't have back then was a world wide search like KTM/Red Bull Rookies, or multinational companies to sponsor.



And they didn't race all over the world straight up, but slowly developed and in the struggle between commercial interest and sporting purity had the scales in favour of the sport and then (suddenly?) commercial interests.



When? Around the end of the two strokes (IMO). We're just being resistant to change and I'll still be watching.



I have that feeling the WSBK will be the class where Australian/American etc. riders will be pushed toward and a

"allowed to win" while motogp luxuriates within sight of its sponsors mirrored corporate windows. Spain and Italy. Maybe a pom but they will get duckshoved into WSBK as well.





Is any sport pure? - 15 years ago I would have said cycling...
 
Firstly Stiefel, Great thread, Been feeling the same with gp but moto2 and 3 always lift the heart!



Jumkie Great post man (the larger one) nailed it!



Willski When could it ever feel better than been at a track with buddies enjoying the craic!?

They are the times I feel most alive! The rest is mundane day to day ....!



Disheartened but won't stop watching unless a major paywall happens!
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Saying that, MGPWWVR vid pass is £80-90 so for 18 races it's a fiver a weekend for everything you wanna see.

It is pretty good value when you think you can watch everything. Plus anything from time gone by.

Summat for those long winter nights I suppose.
 
I think bringing CRT bikes on to a prototype bike grid has killed some of the enjoyment.

I don't have a big problem with the introduction of CRT bikes. But to have them running in the same series where the other half of the grid are on prototypes is lunacy.

It just feels like a mickey mouse series to me now.

The reason there is very little close racing is that there is such a big difference in performace from Factory bike to satelite bike to Crt bike.

The CRT's were Ezy's grid fillers & that's it. They get very little tv time & are not even close to being competitive.

Having Ducati struggling for 2 years has exacerbated the problem as well.

Having Rossi return to Yamaha will probably mean one more guy up the front at least, but to counter that Stoner is retiring so we will still probably only have 3 guys who can win.

Ducati taking a giant leap forward would be awesome, but I'm not sure how quickly that will happen if at all.

Marquez will take time to come on. Will he be an alien? Time will tell. His main competition in moto2 right now are not alien class so he will have to step it up big time.

I think by the end of 2013 he might be making his presence felt at the front. It isn't all doom & gloom but I think the bike performance needs to be leveled some what to generate more interest.



One more thing. For me at Philip Island.

I can get a corporate 3 day package for motogp & it gives me nothing but free food & drink & an air conditioned building to enjoy it in.

If I get the same package for Superbikes, I get - roof access above the pits. A pit walk every day. Paddock access every day. Autograph session on Friday.

It's a worry that Motogp & Superbikes will now be under the same umbrella. Superbikes include the fans & Motogp exclude them.

Needless to say I still buy the superbike package but never bought the motogp one again. Poor value for money. I just buy general admission now.

To be honest I don't think Dorna could organise a root in a brothel.
 
Those numbers are essentially correct. So it costs between 40 and 50 million a year to beat Honda, plus at least 10 years of experience. How much would it cost, say, Kawasaki to catch up with Honda?



With the right program and rider, they should be competitive in 2 years, contending for wins in 3. So lets say 150 million over the course of 3 years. Getting the stud rider is paramount. Kawasaki made their bed. If they had stayed, the curve wouldnt be as drastic.Same with Suzuki. They played the game on the cheap for the decade, now want a performance reset to come crawling back. .... em.
 
I'm really not old enough to know, did this sport lose its integrity when Ago had preferential treatment or was it Sheene, or Roberts, or Doohan, or Rossi?



Or was it when organisers used to keep the gate to themselves & short pay riders for risking their lives?



Or the dangerous multi-class practice sessions?



Or axing tracks from the calendar like the Isle Of Man on ..... safety grounds?



I just need to establish when the precedent was set for losing integrity really.
 
I'm really not old enough to know, did this sport lose its integrity when Ago had preferential treatment or was it Sheene, or Roberts, or Doohan, or Rossi?



Or was it when organisers used to keep the gate to themselves & short pay riders for risking their lives?



Or the dangerous multi-class practice sessions?



Or axing tracks from the calendar like the Isle Of Man on ..... safety grounds?



I just need to establish when the precedent was set for losing integrity really.



Now. There was never disparity on the grid before, both in popularity and competition. It's a completely new phenomenon in racing not to mention all sports.
RollEyes.gif
 
Clearly, you do not understand what a straw man is.



Clearly you do not understand what 90degrees looks like.



You were the first to raise the issue of 'purity' in sport. This thread was about something else, but by raising that issue you can beat it up. Smells hay-like to me.
 
I'm really not old enough to know, did this sport lose its integrity when Ago had preferential treatment or was it Sheene, or Roberts, or Doohan, or Rossi?



Or was it when organisers used to keep the gate to themselves & short pay riders for risking their lives?



Or the dangerous multi-class practice sessions?



Or axing tracks from the calendar like the Isle Of Man on ..... safety grounds?



I just need to establish when the precedent was set for losing integrity really.



Probably. But the further it moves from the best riders on the best machines the more it loses.
 
Nope, I still never miss a single session. I'm not thrilled with some of the things that have/will take place but I still dig GP more than just about anything else I find interesting.



Hang in there.
 
What is sport?
Athletic competition.

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What is a pure sport?
Athletic competition without sponsorship, media or management, where none of the competitors want to beat the others so badly that they would do anything to win. In essence "pure sport" is an ideal, not a reality.

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Was there ever a time when MotoGP was a pure sport?
No. because pure sport is an ideal.



I'll go with a spectrum or continuum as Jum proposed. Olympics (certainly not a pure sport) to WWF and place MGP somewhere around the middle... a little further towards WWF than in the past, but still somewhere in the middle.[/background]
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I think bringing CRT bikes on to a prototype bike grid has killed some of the enjoyment.



I think banning 'CRT' bikes in the first place did much damage to the sport. It allowed Superbike to flourish and take away from GP racing.



In fact, 'too many rules' seems to be the problem. The factories are fighting for the last hundredth of a second and are prepared to pay big to get that, because they are so limited in what they are allowed to do.



If there was no limit on engines, tyres, fuel, cylinders, 'stroke', weight or electronics, jus a cc limit, there would be a bunch more teams contesting the championship and a lot more interesting technology would be allowed to strut its stuff.



No doubt it would always end up with v configuration twins, triples and fours, because power for pound they make the most sense. But there might also be some wicked rotaries, radials, push-me-pull-yous... radical new designs that would shake up the motorcycle world. But we'll never know, because the 'show' is so limited in its view.



It doesn't matter though, I don't care if they are running 80cc v8s, I will still watch. I've been doing it for more than fourty years, I'm not going to stop now just because CRT bikes are racing. Contrary to what a lot of poster have said, I still find it fascinating, still get a buzz even when its some guy running off at the front 20 seconds in the lead. I find the balls-out racing of Espargaro and De Puniet as they chase down the factory prototypes a real draw - I want to see them get new hardware and start to show the factories that spending $5M doesn't necessarily ensure you are faster, that a quick RIDER on a half-million dollar 'spec' bike can beat your high-tech money-pit.



I will miss Stoner, but Rossi should be making things interesting next year. If Pedrosa carries on as he has this season, he will be a force to be reckoned with and his new team-mate has to elbow his way into the big-boys club. Jorge will continue to make cutting wise-cracks while proceeding to blandly ride a bike faster than just about anyone on the planet. Cal will cuss and swear and smile and crash and carry on having a ....... awesome time! Bradders will stolidly go about learning how to ride these things fast. Iannone will piss off a lot of people, will crash a bit and will fulfil his monicker of being 'Crazy Joe'. Abraham will have to learn how to ride a CRT, which after his foray with Ducati will probably come as a pleasant surprise - I think he will surprise a few naysayers, too. Bradl and Bautista will be more of the same... Bradl might find it a bit tougher without Spies there to make him look good
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And all the while I will be eagerly anticipating the day that Suzuki/Kawasaki/Aprilia/MV/BMW/Norton announce a return to GP racing... and the rules Carmelo will put in place to further level the field.



Because that's why I watch - to see people race. I don't much care what it is they race as long as it isn't a spec bike and as long as there is drama. I want to see crazy Italians gesticulating, Brits chewing up the furniture, Spaniards fighting to cement their place, Americans hanging it out, Australians pissing off fanboys.



You guys can head on off to midget cars or Superbike or whatever it is you watch when you're not watching GP racing.



Me, I'll be glued to my seat, watching every minute of every race and as much footage of teams, riders and managers as I can track down. What else would I be doing? Watching horses?
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