Valentino Rossi

woody996 said:

A simple tracing of Stoner's results on the Ducati, the wins decreased the longer he was on it and still noone else could ride the thing.

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Woody this is what you wrote on the 'don't bother turning up' thread, i've moved it here because that thread is not going to be turned into another rossi/stoner debate.



Ok fair enough, your assumption is Stoner cannot develop a bike because his results deteriorated on it. So Rossi is a great developer right? in 2011 he has 1 podium and finished what, 6th in the champs? 2012 just one podium, about 8th in the champs and its been agreed his performance this year is far worse than last, he's regularly the last Ducati. So by your own argument Rossi is even worse at developing a bike!



My belief is Ducati cannot develop quickly enough to give riders what they ask for, we've all heard numerous times that both Rossi and Stoner have complained of slow updates.

#22 said:

Woody this is what you wrote on the 'don't bother turning up' thread, i've moved it here because that thread is not going to be turned into another rossi/stoner debate.



Ok fair enough, your assumption is Stoner cannot develop a bike because his results deteriorated on it. So Rossi is a great developer right? in 2011 he has 1 podium and finished what, 6th in the champs? 2012 just one podium, about 8th in the champs and its been agreed his performance this year is far worse than last, he's regularly the last Ducati. So by your own argument Rossi is even worse at developing a bike!



My belief is Ducati cannot develop quickly enough to give riders what they ask for, we've all heard numerous times that both Rossi and Stoner have complained of slow updates.

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This is my whole point. We are in agreement.

My original post was that I won't blame stoner if no one blames Rossi as the argument goes both ways. My personal view is that Ducati hasnt listened to either rider and don't have the capacity to do what they need to in the time that they need to. This is why I believe that Stoner won't ever go back to Ducati.

Ahh ok Woody, makes sense now

woody996 said:

This is my whole point. We are in agreement.

My original post was that I won't blame stoner if no one blames Rossi as the argument goes both ways. My personal view is that Ducati hasnt listened to either rider and don't have the capacity to do what they need to in the time that they need to. This is why I believe that Stoner won't ever go back to Ducati.

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+1

+1....... aaaannnnd...... [font=times new roman, times, serif]24 riders in 9 years !!!! talk about setting unheard of records !! [/font]





[font=times new roman, times, serif]I don't think Cagiva, Suzuki and Kawasaki combined churned through that many in a 9 year period.......[/font]





[font=times new roman, times, serif]......and yet,.. it's the rider at fault......[/font]

So Lin Jarvis has flat out denied that there has been any pressure from Dorna to hire Rossi (or that he has even spoken to Caramel regarding it...) and has also stated that Rossi approached them regarding the switch. To all the MotoVR accusers, is Lin lying and if so, what is your proof?

woody996 said:

So Lin Jarvis has flat out denied that there has been any pressure from Dorna to hire Rossi (or that he has even spoken to Caramel regarding it...) and has also stated that Rossi approached them regarding the switch. To all the MotoVR accusers, is Lin lying and if so, what is your proof?

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Who's them? I doubt Rossi's management approached Jarvis. Jarvis said Lorenzo wanted Spies on the team for 2013, and Lorenzo was his main priority.



Obviously Carmelo met with someone in Yamaha higher up than Jarvis, to pave the way for Rossi returning. Its probably the same dude that told Spies to ride at 100% or dont bother turning up. Obviously there's an internal problem at Yamaha atm. Only Spies knows I guess. Anyway, once the deal was done, Carmelo got very excited and couldnt keep his mouth shut, telling the world about it, no doubt thinking about motogp videopass sales boosting in 2013.

birdman said:

Who's them? I doubt Rossi's management approached Jarvis. Jarvis said Lorenzo wanted Spies on the team for 2013, and Lorenzo was his main priority.



Obviously Carmelo met with someone in Yamaha higher up than Jarvis, to pave the way for Rossi returning. Its probably the same dude that told Spies to ride at 100% or dont bother turning up. Obviously there's an internal problem at Yamaha atm. Only Spies knows I guess. Anyway, once the deal was done, Carmelo got very excited and couldnt keep his mouth shut, telling the world about it, no doubt thinking about motogp videopass sales boosting in 2013.

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And your source is?

inam said:

And your source is?

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The Oracle...... ?

birdman said:

Who's them? I doubt Rossi's management approached Jarvis. Jarvis said Lorenzo wanted Spies on the team for 2013, and Lorenzo was his main priority.



Obviously Carmelo met with someone in Yamaha higher up than Jarvis, to pave the way for Rossi returning. Its probably the same dude that told Spies to ride at 100% or dont bother turning up. Obviously there's an internal problem at Yamaha atm. Only Spies knows I guess. Anyway, once the deal was done, Carmelo got very excited and couldnt keep his mouth shut, telling the world about it, no doubt thinking about motogp videopass sales boosting in 2013.

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There's no evidence supporting your view but your statement implies that Lin is telling the truth be it because of a technicality. It's good that you're not calling Lin a liar. He comes across as a smart businessman but not a snake.

woody996 said:

There's no evidence supporting your view but your statement implies that Lin is telling the truth be it because of a technicality. It's good that you're not calling Lin a liar. He comes across as a smart businessman but not a snake.

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Ben Spies confirmed as such, saying its not Lin. Do you think things are running smoothly at Yamaha? The virtual resignation of Spies, the broken swingarm, the engine failure, the "give 100% or dont turn up". All of these things happening at contract time, just by coincidence? Maybe, maybe not, like I said only Ben really knows whats been going on.

birdman said:

Ben Spies confirmed as such, saying its not Lin. Do you think things are running smoothly at Yamaha? The virtual resignation of Spies, the broken swingarm, the engine failure, the "give 100% or dont turn up". All of these things happening at contract time, just by coincidence? Maybe, maybe not, like I said only Ben really knows whats been going on.

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I disagree completely. Things are going great at Yamaha-better than ever, they are on track for another world title-their 6th in the modern era, have arguably the best bike on the grid, and for the next two seasons the best two riders are once again riding for the triple tuning fork. Not too mention the best satelite efforts for a long while-from any manufacturer. Ben Spies has had a lot of misfortune yes, this is not unusual in racing-look at Rossi in 2006-2 blown engines during races-one of which he was leading by quite a margain. And two complete tyre malfunctions. Ben has had a few good opportunites to reedem his form this season, particularly at Catalunya-where he made a complete rookie mistake.



Lin is only the head of the Motogp effort, no one in their right mind believes that he made any decisions regarding Rossi-of course it came from Japan-the door was always opened as I argued from the the start of the silly season. Jarvis also categorically stated that Rossi was re-hired on his resume and nothing else. Only those who want to believe something else with no evidence whatsoever are suggesting, rather stupidly, otherwise.





One could easily argue that things are worse at Honda with a similar perspective yet opposing POV influenced by analogous bias.....that Carmelo has conviced the big 'H' to sabotage Stoner's efforts, make him resign and retire so they could fast track Marquez to the factory team..... Surely dani couldn't be beating Casey on his own merits......



Two riders complaining about chatter and tyres vigorously, the reigning world champ resigning completely, with his title defense in tatters due to too many crashes, inconsistent form and now injuries. Only one solid rider in the factory team for next season, who will no doubt get flogged by the two Yamaha's......





And lets not get onto Ducati.

To those doubting that something occurred in the background, please explain the comments of Carmelo Ecclestone/Ezpeleta regarding Rossi being on a competitive bike in 2013?



What did he know back in June that others did not?

woody996 said:

There's no evidence supporting your view but your statement implies that Lin is telling the truth be it because of a technicality. It's good that you're not calling Lin a liar. He comes across as a smart businessman but not a snake.

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Actually Woody, there is also no evidence supporting your view short of a few comments that come from people with vested interests.



No doubt we (the fans) will never know the full and true backdoor machinations that occurred to get Rossi back on the Yamaha, but no doubt at all Spies sure does not seem happy about something that was occurring for some time.

Gaz said:

To those doubting that something occurred in the background, please explain the comments of Carmelo Ecclestone/Ezpeleta regarding Rossi being on a competitive bike in 2013?



What did he know back in June that others did not?

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Maybe just the level of commitment that Audi was going to bring to the Ducati GP effort, that bike will get better. I would think that if there was something going on behind the scenes that Rossi wouldn't be so humble about the entire ordeal, Yamaha picked him up for cheap and they are in complete control of the entire situation and they've already put him in his place both publicly and privately. He's obviously good for the sport with everyone saying as much, but he isn't going around acting like he runs the show, he knows he'll be the #2 rider and he'll be making #2 money. He just wants a good ride to end his career, he could have already left if he wanted and he certainly doesn't need to worry about money.

Gaz said:

To those doubting that something occurred in the background, please explain the comments of Carmelo Ecclestone/Ezpeleta regarding Rossi being on a competitive bike in 2013?



What did he know back in June that others did not?

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There were discussions taking place as early as Le Mans upon Stoner's retirement, discussions with both Honda and Yamaha from the Rossi camp. The deal was done a long time ago, Carmelo has been in damage control all season, this would have been the best PR line he's had up his sleeve to give to avoid more mass exodus of spectators thanks to Honda and Bridgestone, and he couldn't help himself. No too mention it was a pretty broad statement, the likes of which many observers, journos and insiders have been making.



Do you have a parallel argument for the actual abuse of regs and true back room deal that was done in public, that is the Marquez promotion to the factory Honda? Or are these theories only reserved for Rossi? Maybe you could start a thread-I'd be happy to contribute to that debate as well

Talpa said:

There were discussions taking place as early as Le Mans upon Stoner's retirement, discussions with both Honda and Yamaha from the Rossi camp. The deal was done a long time ago, Carmelo has been in damage control all season, this would have been the best PR line he's had up his sleeve to give to avoid more mass exodus of spectators thanks to Honda and Bridgestone, and he couldn't help himself. No too mention it was a pretty broad statement, the likes of which many observers, journos and insiders have been making.

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Talps, your innate need to defend all that is Rossi is admirable, but as I have said for some time I do NOT (placed in bold capitals for emphasis) blame Rossi for his situation irrespective of whether Ezpeleta played a part or not (and IMO, I do feel he played a large strong part ................ and Woody, nope, no evidence just gut feel that Ezpeleta is a greedy ... who knows where his money comes from)

Talpa said:

Do you have a parallel argument for the actual abuse of regs and true back room deal that was done in public, that is the Marquez promotion to the factory Honda? Or are these theories only reserved for Rossi? Maybe you could start a thread-I'd be happy to contribute to that debate as well

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Is this thread about Marqez now?



Given you have bought it up to deflect attention, I suggest you read back many many months where I tipped outright that Marquez would be Stoner's replacement, and I was unequivocal about it.



Why?



Well gut feel tells me that Ezpeleta was posturing to try to generate some form of bargaining tool (ie. my theory - he was actively shopping between Yamaha and Honda for a ride for Rossi, Honda offered only if the rookie rule goes, Honda won, Rossi chose elsewhere ................... and Woody, the purveyor of all things evidence .............. I have none, just theory as it says)



But, FWIW and to appease you Talps, I suggest you read as I was quite critical of the decision although I is/was also very strongly against the Rookie rule to start with as (IMO) if you are good enough then you should be able to get a full factory ride.

I'm thinking Furusawa has had something to do with it...



http://motomatters.com/interview/2012/08/21/masao_furusawa_interview_on_visiting_ita.html

hawkdriver said:

Maybe just the level of commitment that Audi was going to bring to the Ducati GP effort, that bike will get better. I would think that if there was something going on behind the scenes that Rossi wouldn't be so humble about the entire ordeal, Yamaha picked him up for cheap and they are in complete control of the entire situation and they've already put him in his place both publicly and privately. He's obviously good for the sport with everyone saying as much, but he isn't going around acting like he runs the show, he knows he'll be the #2 rider and he'll be making #2 money. He just wants a good ride to end his career, he could have already left if he wanted and he certainly doesn't need to worry about money.

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Hawk, do you genuinely believe the first line?



There is no doubt that Audi will bring a different approach to the Ducati side of things, but there is no chance (all IMO before I am asked to produce evidence) that Ezpeleta was talking of Ducati.



Your comment with regards to Rossi's approach is I think also wrong as irrespective of which way it went Rossi wins (as has been well documented) with his fans as he is seen as essential to the sport (not my opinion, just open commentary by many). So for me, Rossi is being humble for the very reasons you feel he is not, that being that somewhere pressure was applied to all factories for an opening and I suspect well before VR himself had even started seriously considering a move as (all IMO again) he desperately wanted the Ducati to work.



As for him being the #2 rider, sorry but I call BS as there is no way Rossi would accept his place as a number 2 rider, he would have gone to Yamah on a full 'equal/same footing' contract with both riders starting the season as dual #1 (as it should be). We have seen Rossi not accepting being a secondary rider in a team (Japan 2010 - near barging a championship fighting Lorenzo whilst Rossi himself was not in championship contention ---- somethingh CS now needs to be careful about). He did not accept it then and will not now.



Now, this is all about Rossi needing to prove to himself that he still has the mojo (and he will)

Zootalaws said:

I'm thinking Furusawa has had something to do with it...



http://motomatters.c...siting_ita.html

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I tend to think he was an intermediary in some ways as Rossi does trust and respect him (a mutual feeling) and no doubt it would be a good move by Yamaha to have Furusawa involved without the need to involve other active team members