Troy Bayliss to test Ducati GP9

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ May 13 2009, 10:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>indeed it did. he happened to have a fairly competent team mate who was developing a rc211v honda at the time which if memory serves correctly, was moderately successful that year....


Its hard for me to debate against Bayliss because i admire the man to much so all im going to say is some seem to think he would blitz the motogp field basing this on his 06 win and forgetting the very dramatic season he had in motogp previously. If he came back on the duc i think he would be racing gibbers rather than stoner but would be delited if i was proved wrong.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ May 13 2009, 11:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Its hard for me to debate against Bayliss because i admire the man to much so all im going to say is some seem to think he would blitz the motogp field basing this on his 06 win and forgetting the very dramatic season he had in motogp previously. If he came back on the duc i think he would be racing gibbers rather than stoner but would be delited if i was proved wrong.
i am in agreement with you there. IMO hes too old and WSBified to be a podium contender now..
still remember him ruffling a few feathers in his first outing on a duc at monza though. that was my first sight of the bayliss/ducati juggernaut..

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ May 13 2009, 12:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i am in agreement with you there. IMO hes too old and WSBified to be a podium contender now..
still remember him ruffling a few feathers in his first outing on a duc at monza though. that was my first sight of the bayliss/ducati juggernaut..


Just think here a bit. THe guy was out of MOTO GP and came back for a cameo ride, wins the race with a crew that he mostly used for SBK and got the bike to feel like he wanted it to feel. That is what breeds the win is the confidence. Hey he blew away the entire field in that race. So look at last season in SBK. He blew away just about everyone for the season. So he can't be that bad at his age. I mean 36 years old isn't that old in terms of racing. Look at Mladin, Duhamel, Checa, Biaggi, Haga. I understand there comes a point when you can't do it any longer. If Bayliss wanted to continue in SBK he would still be doing well. A bit tougher cause of Spies of course but... You have to think that if he was in GP's on a bike that feels good he would be up towards the front.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clarkjw @ May 10 2009, 11:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I didn't call you stupid. That wasn't my only answer.

I read what you wrote. I pointed out that you were (perhaps inadvertently) equating contact surface with grip. You called the objection 'stupid' and mentioned again the fact that at lean angles there is more tyre in contact with the ground (which is obviously true, but of course it does not mean there is more 'grip'). Anyway, I see that the discussion has evolved and now this point seems clarified, so we should all be happy.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ROCKGOD01 @ May 13 2009, 06:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Just think here a bit. THe guy was out of MOTO GP and came back for a cameo ride, wins the race with a crew that he mostly used for SBK and got the bike to feel like he wanted it to feel. That is what breeds the win is the confidence. Hey he blew away the entire field in that race. So look at last season in SBK. He blew away just about everyone for the season. So he can't be that bad at his age. I mean 36 years old isn't that old in terms of racing. Look at Mladin, Duhamel, Checa, Biaggi, Haga. I understand there comes a point when you can't do it any longer. If Bayliss wanted to continue in SBK he would still be doing well. A bit tougher cause of Spies of course but... You have to think that if he was in GP's on a bike that feels good he would be up towards the front.
Actually he is 40 years old. I dont think his age is a factor in my opinion that he would not be a podium contender in motogp now. I think Troy would have been more suited to the 990 duc than this new 800 bike. He had his day on the 990 and he was good, not brilliant just good with only 3 thirds and his wild card win but still impressive. Why do some of you think he can jump on this 800 and be a contender ? What cos he won a race in 06 on the 990 ?? Things have changed since then. I still think he would be racing gibbers not stoner on the 800. Its the lads coming from 250s that gell with these 800's more than ex wsb/ama superbike riders.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ May 13 2009, 05:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Actually he is 40 years old. I dont think his age is a factor in my opinion that he would not be a podium contender in motogp now. I think Troy would have been more suited to the 990 duc than this new 800 bike. He had his day on the 990 and he was good, not brilliant just good with only 3 thirds and his wild card win but still impressive. Why do some of you think he can jump on this 800 and be a contender ? What cos he won a race in 06 on the 990 ?? Things have changed since then. I still think he would be racing gibbers not stoner on the 800. Its the lads coming from 250s that gell with these 800's more than ex wsb/ama superbike riders.
I am not saying he would get on the bike and straight away he wins. I am saying based on what he has done he should fare well even though he is supposed to be past his prime.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ May 13 2009, 05:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I read what you wrote. I pointed out that you were (perhaps inadvertently) equating contact surface with grip. You called the objection 'stupid' and mentioned again the fact that at lean angles there is more tyre in contact with the ground (which is obviously true, but of course it does not mean there is more 'grip'). Anyway, I see that the discussion has evolved and now this point seems clarified, so we should all be happy.
I conflated your comments with Lex's assertion that "contact patch is reduced at lean angle". Glad that's cleared up

The issue of grip is related to the force being applied to the tire over a certain size contact patch. The forward motion as a result of grip when the bike is upright has more to do with the force to the smaller contact patch is now being applied in a unified balanced direction. If a rider goes WOT at lean, the tire will "grip" but forward motion is not going to be the result. Smooth throttle at lean, post apex, allows grip to occur in a more stable direction.

Also, grip can occur without throttle, through intertia. I believe Casey uses grip from intertia on corner entry, at lean. I think it's the reason his tires get leave those marks before apex.
I also speculate that Troy won't like this. He seems to like a touch of torsional flex (see single sided swingarm) which the GP9 has almost none.

Another example of intertial grip is weighting the inside footpeg. Notice how Rossi want's to modulate lean agle grip by lifting his inside leg (motard style). The increased contact patch at lean makes the bike more sensitive to force and grip beyond what is needed in sub optimal directions.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ May 13 2009, 10:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Its the lads coming from 250s that gell with these 800's more than ex wsb/ama superbike riders.
Yes, That is by design. Its Dorna's way of making the series 'exclusive'...as oppose to the 'best'. SBK riders are 2nd class citizens to the preferred 250/125 gp riders.

BTW, Bayliss had a respectable 6th classification. Think back to all the 6th place riders in the last five years. Not bad, eh.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clarkjw @ May 13 2009, 10:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I conflated your comments with Lex's assertion that "contact patch is reduced at lean angle". Glad that's cleared up

In a world with no gravity, no brakes, and no accelerator the contact patch is biggest when the bike is at full lean. However, I don't know of any such world.

As I said before, without data, we can't know where the contact patch is actually biggest especially without knowing tire flex properties. However, I did say that you had proven demonstrably that the strongest argument at this time is that contact patch is largest at lean based upon modern profile design.

I was trying to refute the idea that grip continually increases as the bike is leaned. It probably doesn't, but again, we can't actually know that without coefficient of friction data for the tires. The only things that affect grip are coefficient of friction and the amount of force perpendicular to the contact patch.

Any news on his times?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ May 13 2009, 08:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Any news on his times?
I searched everywhere. None to be found.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ May 13 2009, 09:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>In a world with no gravity, no brakes, and no accelerator the contact patch is biggest when the bike is at full lean. However, I don't know of any such world.

Oh, come on Lex. Just deny tire manufacturers claims but don't expect anyone to listen. It's biger at lean angle for a number of reasons:
- The profile make sure you get more rubber down when leaned over. Dunlops D207GP where the first tire widely available to really exploit this. For years it was considered so extreme that any tester would recognize it in a "blind" test.
- The tire flex A LOT more sideways than in the turning direction. You only get sideway forces at an angle and the more leaned over the more sideway force.
- Add the brake or power forces that will further bend the tire out of shape, maximizing contact patch when you most need the grip.

I agree that the patch size doesn't automatically create more grip, a 125 go just as fast or faster in the corners, but with a few important differences. Less weight and less power create much less force the tire have to handle, so to me this is all about handling forces without overloading the tires. To avoid overload (in the short term) you need to spread the forces over a large enough contact patch.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ May 13 2009, 02:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Oh, come on Lex. Just deny tire manufacturers claims but don't expect anyone to listen. It's biger at lean angle for a number of reasons:
- The profile make sure you get more rubber down when leaned over. Dunlops D207GP where the first tire widely available to really exploit this. For years it was considered so extreme that any tester would recognize it in a "blind" test.
- The tire flex A LOT more sideways than in the turning direction. You only get sideway forces at an angle and the more leaned over the more sideway force.
- Add the brake or power forces that will further bend the tire out of shape, maximizing contact patch when you most need the grip.

I agree that the patch size doesn't automatically create more grip, a 125 go just as fast or faster in the corners, but with a few important differences. Less weight and less power create much less force the tire have to handle, so to me this is all about handling forces without overloading the tires. To avoid overload (in the short term) you need to spread the forces over a large enough contact patch.

Babel, have you been reading this thread? Contact patch and grip are independent of one another; they are not directly related at all.

The idea that maximum grip and tire efficiency (related to contact patch) occur at a lean angle other than full lean, is an idea as old as the motorcycle itself. I was under the impression that much of this had to do with tire profile; however, clarkjw has demonstrated otherwise.

Creating more turning force with less lean has always been a goal for riders and still is to this day. It is unlikely that maximum contact patch and tire grip are generated at the extremity of the tire b/c of the riding styles that have proven effective over the decades.

Technology has the ability to change the paradigm, but until I see riders maximizing lean angle at every available opportunity, I'm not going to subscribe to the theory that contact patch size/efficiency or maximum grip are generated at a tire's edges.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ May 14 2009, 01:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm not going to subscribe to the theory
Gauntlet thrown!
I will race you around Laguna Seca anytime you like! You can even pick the bike if you're scared of the Buell.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ May 13 2009, 06:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Actually he is 40 years old. I dont think his age is a factor in my opinion that he would not be a podium contender in motogp now. I think Troy would have been more suited to the 990 duc than this new 800 bike. He had his day on the 990 and he was good, not brilliant just good with only 3 thirds and his wild card win but still impressive. Why do some of you think he can jump on this 800 and be a contender ? What cos he won a race in 06 on the 990 ?? Things have changed since then. I still think he would be racing gibbers not stoner on the 800. Its the lads coming from 250s that gell with these 800's more than ex wsb/ama superbike riders.


Crikey, I have to agree with Roger!
Bayliss has a strong record, but he never put himself into the consistently elite group of motogp riders. His technique is flawed and imprecise compared to Rossi and Stoner, instead riding with his testicles instead of his brain on most occasions. Thats why he was so much fun to watch! A race win and several podiums would still put him firmly in the top 10 motogp riders over the past 7 years. Not a Rossi or Stoner, but a pretty handy test rider for Ducati!

I actually think his style is far closer to Haydens than Stoners. Stoner is in fact a very precise rider in the Rossi mould, its just the Ducati that makes him look ragged. Bayliss is just pure aggression with less finesse than is ideal. I think he will help with ideas that will help Hayden.

There is still hope Jumkie!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ May 13 2009, 08:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yes, That is by design. Its Dorna's way of making the series 'exclusive'...as oppose to the 'best'. SBK riders are 2nd class citizens to the preferred 250/125 gp riders.
.....................

Actually, riders coming from the excellent school of 125 and 250 do not need to be favoured by design, they are consistently more precise and efffective MotoGP riders than those coming from SBK because they built their skills on real, lean and mean GP machines, not on hypertrophic heavy bikes. This said, there can always be exceptions--when a rider is a genius he will learn anyway--but those have been really very, very few.

This is why I always confidently predict that after the creation of Moto2 the current crop of young champions coming from good old 250 (Stoner, Pedrosa, Lorenzo, Dovi, Simoncelli, Bautista, Kallio and a few others) will dominate the MotoGP scene for many years. Most of the lads who will grow up on those Moto2 contraptions will never be able to seriously challenge them.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ May 14 2009, 09:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Actually, riders coming from the excellent school of 125 and 250 do not need to be favoured by design, they are consistently more precise and efffective MotoGP riders than those coming from SBK because they built their skills on real, lean and mean GP machines, not on hypertrophic heavy bikes. This said, there can always be exceptions--when a rider is a genius he will learn anyway--but those have been really very, very few.

This is why I always confidently predict that after the creation of Moto2 the current crop of young champions coming from good old 250 (Stoner, Pedrosa, Lorenzo, Dovi, Simoncelli, Bautista, Kallio and a few others) will dominate the MotoGP scene for many years. Most of the lads who will grow up on those Moto2 contraptions will never be able to seriously challenge them.
my thoughts exactly mate

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bunyip @ May 14 2009, 06:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Crikey, I have to agree with Roger!
Bayliss has a strong record, but he never put himself into the consistently elite group of motogp riders. His technique is flawed and imprecise compared to Rossi and Stoner, instead riding with his testicles instead of his brain on most occasions. Thats why he was so much fun to watch! A race win and several podiums would still put him firmly in the top 10 motogp riders over the past 7 years. Not a Rossi or Stoner, but a pretty handy test rider for Ducati!

I actually think his style is far closer to Haydens than Stoners. Stoner is in fact a very precise rider in the Rossi mould, its just the Ducati that makes him look ragged. Bayliss is just pure aggression with less finesse than is ideal. I think he will help with ideas that will help Hayden.

There is still hope Jumkie!
What do you base this on ?
not a dig at stoner but ive yet to see what i would call a "precise" rider in him on a 4 stroke. For what ever the reason he was ragged on the Honda and ragged on the duc. The throttle telemetry we get on tv shows a lack of throttle Precision ,he just opens it wide on corner exits unlike rossi.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ May 13 2009, 11:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I agree that the patch size doesn't automatically create more grip, a 125 go just as fast or faster in the corners, but with a few important differences. Less weight and less power create much less force the tire have to handle, so to me this is all about handling forces without overloading the tires. To avoid overload (in the short term) you need to spread the forces over a large enough contact patch.

This whole tyre debate is flawed by the fact that evidently none of us here know what we are talking about. The commonly quoted forumula for frictional forces and co-efficient of friction are an approximation for static conditions and actual tyre performance (particularly in racing) is far more complicated. Also the basic understanding assumes a perfectly flat and level road which is unrealistic, especially as loss of grip is usually started from fluctuatios in the road surface causing the tyre loads to rise suddenly. These things are governed by the bikes chassis, suspension and orientation coupled with the riders inputs.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ May 14 2009, 09:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What do you base this on ?
not a dig at stoner but ive yet to see what i would call a "precise" rider in him on a 4 stroke. For what ever the reason he was ragged on the Honda and ragged on the duc. The throttle telemetry we get on tv shows a lack of throttle Precision ,he just opens it wide on corner exits unlike rossi.


While I agree with you in regards to CS' style I qould ask whether the telemetry is indeed accurate and whether it shows any lack of throttle precision by CS.

IMO, if the telemetry is accurate then what it shows is not poor throttle control and instead accurate and exceelent use of the electronic systems at hand as they would regulat the amount of 'true' throttle applied based upon the various sensors. To me, if a rider is able to utilise electronics and basically 'twist to stop' and allow the electronics to work for them, then they cannot be accused of poor throttle control or any such failing (realise you do not say this nor allude it).

In all honesty however, IMO the telemetry we see on the coverage is not accurate as there were times during the CS vs JL battle late in the race where JL was clearly on the brakes (front compressed) yet the telemetry had him on full or large part throttle. To me the display is actually out of synch slightly and not in 'real time' thus our judgements are flawed based upon that vision.

As for his general riding style however whilst I do see an amazing level of presision in regards to track position (which is a trait of all top riders) I also do not see precision in terms of smoothness which I feel is Rossi. To me, VR is smooth, very smooth and it is what makes him so good as he does not tend to 'stress' the machine unnecessarily, whereas (again to me) CS is and always has been a very physical rider and prefers a more aggressive approach.

Neither style is right, neither is wrong as it is their individual styles and personally I find the contrast incredibly interesting to watch.







Garry