Fixed it for you, and really what's the big deal, if you wanted to build a rocket would you call me or NASA. I would call NASA they have proven they know what they're doing just like Rossi and JB. It's racing, beat'em or join'em, it's time to fix the bike, they have to go with what works and not what they want to work. Casey is long gone, Rossi can't ride the Duc the same way he could, blah blah who cares neither can anyone else.
Translate a Vittoriano Guareschi interview for me.
- Thread starter hawkdriver
- Start date
Fixed it for you, and really what's the big deal, if you wanted to build a rocket would you call me or NASA. I would call NASA they have proven they know what they're doing just like Rossi and JB. It's racing, beat'em or join'em, it's time to fix the bike, they have to go with what works and not what they want to work. Casey is long gone, Rossi can't ride the Duc the same way he could, blah blah who cares neither can anyone else.
Joined Jun 2006
2K Posts | 20+
south wales UK
stoner, pedro, lorenzo, simoncelli, spies etc have all been riding better than rossi this season.... isit the shoulder? well thats what im waiting to see and if it isnt i will happily admit it.
today none of us can say who is best, but what we can say who is riding best and at the moment its casey stoner, last year it was lorenzo.....
rossi doesnt like a wild bike which is part of his problem with the gp11 but i do belive he cant go fast on it (or faster) thats why im thinking its the shoulder, he did ride the 500's after all.
we can all speculate but have to say that whoever wins the championship is riding the best regardless if competitors have dnf's or whatever.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Certainly, I agree. I'm just wondering how its possible for peeps (J4rno etal) can't, won’t, refuse, to see the simple truth. 'The bike must improve (in this case a complete scrap and redesign, or colloquially speaking, moving heaven & earth) for Rossi to be Rossi.' What is there to understand? Yes, I wouldn’t doubt they have called NASA for their expertise. The watershed moment was when Yamaha refused to quarantine Rossi-Teammate X, an arrangement Ducati were more than willing to restore to the Nth degree. Despite the powers that be adding, moving, and circumventing, anything possible to help the man on the Ducati, he will have to ride it until the new YamahDuc Corse delivers the new[sup]2[/sup] parts (which might be by the end of this weekend.)
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Question: Must the shoulder be healed 100% for us to consider his performance on the Ducati?
If not, at what estimate percentage of healing? 80%, 90% 95%?
Are all the injuries & previous injuries currently healing or nagging other riders fair game to offsets analysis of their performance?
If an injury is bothering another rider not named Valentino Rossi, then by admission, it is not 100%. At what point can a claim of bothering or discomfort be deemed an offset of performance?
Will we ever be able to opinion Rossi's performance without the offset of his shoulder, or will we have to wait until Ducati produce a new advantageous machine for which he has success, only then will the public be allowed to opinion (of course that opinion will be, he's now winning, therefore the shoulder is now healed)?
Joined Jun 2006
2K Posts | 20+
south wales UK
Question: Must the shoulder be healed 100% for us to consider his performance on the Ducati?
yes as the track isnt a straight line, the ducati is a handful and isnt as smooth as the otherbikes so cornering will be more stressful
If not, at what estimate percentage of healing? 80%, 90% 95%?
none of the above, im looking for improvements over the next few races.
Are all the injuries & previous injuries currently healing or nagging other riders fair game to offsets analysis of their performance?
yes but everyone is different look at pedrosa for an example, im only looking at rossi's injuries not comparing him to other riders. stoner's performance was not where he wanted it to be when he had scaphoid problems so im giving rossi a chance over the next few races.
If an injury is bothering another rider not named Valentino Rossi, then by admission, it is not 100%. At what point can a claim of bothering or discomfort be deemed an offset of performance?
watch pedrosa's last race you will have your answer.
Will we ever be able to opinion Rossi's performance without the offset of his shoulder?
yes we can make judgement on rossi's performance after a few races, if times dont improve on the ducati then we know its more then just the shoulder.... ie it doesnt suit his style of riding.
will we have to wait until Ducati produce a new advantageous machine for which he has success, only then will the public be allowed to opinion (of course that opinion will be, he's now winning, therefore the shoulder is now healed)?
the public can opinon when they like but personally im giving him a chance to see if its the shoulder or if the bike doesnt suit his style. if results improve without ducati building a new machine then he has adapted his style and probaly was the shoulder causing problems afterall.
yes as the track isnt a straight line, the ducati is a handful and isnt as smooth as the otherbikes so cornering will be more stressful
If not, at what estimate percentage of healing? 80%, 90% 95%?
none of the above, im looking for improvements over the next few races.
Are all the injuries & previous injuries currently healing or nagging other riders fair game to offsets analysis of their performance?
yes but everyone is different look at pedrosa for an example, im only looking at rossi's injuries not comparing him to other riders. stoner's performance was not where he wanted it to be when he had scaphoid problems so im giving rossi a chance over the next few races.
If an injury is bothering another rider not named Valentino Rossi, then by admission, it is not 100%. At what point can a claim of bothering or discomfort be deemed an offset of performance?
watch pedrosa's last race you will have your answer.
Will we ever be able to opinion Rossi's performance without the offset of his shoulder?
yes we can make judgement on rossi's performance after a few races, if times dont improve on the ducati then we know its more then just the shoulder.... ie it doesnt suit his style of riding.
will we have to wait until Ducati produce a new advantageous machine for which he has success, only then will the public be allowed to opinion (of course that opinion will be, he's now winning, therefore the shoulder is now healed)?
the public can opinon when they like but personally im giving him a chance to see if its the shoulder or if the bike doesnt suit his style. if results improve without ducati building a new machine then he has adapted his style and probaly was the shoulder causing problems afterall.
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
Doesn't suit his riding style? It's never suited anyone's riding style. That's why it's been referred to so often
as the career-killer bike. The difference is Stoner rode the .... out of it anyhoo.
When it was first announced that Rossi was really going to Ducati - a lot folks felt it was incredibly arrogant (on the part
of Rossi-fans) to think that he'd be able to repeat Stoner's success on the idiosyncratic Ducati. So naturally - some of us
are wary of more potential excuses for why Rossi hasn't - or will not - have as many podium spots on the Ducati as
Stoner did. It's not a question of "I hate Rossi". It's just there's going to be (unless Burgess pulls one hell of a rabbit
out of his hat) a lot of "I told you so's" going to be making the rounds at the end of this season.
I don't know about Ducati willing to quarantine Nicky lol, he's my favorite but sadly he's become a #2 with no foreseeable chances of ever being taken seriously by any team as a #1. I don't think Rossi is worried about Nicky's talent level at all, he's a good rider but lets not kid ourselves, he's more of a PR guy now than anything else. Ducati don't have to put Nicky in his place, he's already there and sadly I see him becoming another Colin Edwards if this bike doesn't get fixed. I think Nicky has accepted his place, if he wanted to win he would leave Ducati and work his way back up or head to SBK and compete but instead he is content with his position, just like CE, hold on to what you have and be happy with a rare crumb here and there. God I hope I jinxed myself and he gets some parts and podiums
Personally I think Rossi should just come out and say I can not ride this bike the way it is which is the truth rather than saying I can't ride it because of the shoulder. There is no shame in saying that. Many great riders have got on it and failed. Unfortunately some of them were shamed all the way out of MotoGP which in hindsight was just wrong. The Ducati is a bike that just does not work. Just because Stoner was able to ride it does not change that as Stoner did not want to ride it the way it was either which is part of the reason he left.
A little bit of honesty would go a long way with fans of the sport and fans of all riders who like Rossi also but have been so bludgeoned by his cult fans and media manipulations. Lets just get it out there that the shoulder is not really that bad, the bike is and is not a style (aggressive) that suits Rossi and a major redesign and philosophically change is required and underway. Then we can all just get back to enjoying the process and the result.
two 4th place finishes also helped........
Its safe to say that no one really successfully rode the Ducati in 2009-2010, so saying that Stoner could ride the bike that Rossi is currently on is a fallacy, as he couldn't consistently ride it successfully without crashing, which made it very unpredictable and not a chance of winning the world title, one off victories yes, but against the M1 and Lorenzo they didn't have a hope.
Rossi has also spent a lot of time talking about the Ducati and its turning issues, its front end issues and its savage power delivery issues....not just the shoulder. So whats the point of being able to ride the Ducati like Stoner did and consistently crash? I doubt Rossi has even tried, for it makes no sense and won't get Ducati anywhere they haven't been for 2 years now. It obviously needs to be fixed, whats wrong with fixing it? How do you know the state of the shoulder? That's right you don't, so how about a bit of honesty from you too?
Rossi and Burgess know how to develop a multiple-championship winning machine better than anybody else in the paddock, hence they are approaching the development of the Ducati the way that they know how, and so far their methods and philosophy are far more successful on many more machines than the rider he replaced. Why go backwards for a couple of one-off wins, maybe a top five finish and a bunch of wrecked fairings?
I'm sure many fans are very happy that Rossi is not riding the bike like Stoner did
two 4th place finishes also helped........
Its safe to say that no one really successfully rode the Ducati in 2009-2010, so saying that Stoner could ride the bike that Rossi is currently on is a fallacy, as he couldn't consistently ride it successfully without crashing, which made it very unpredictable and not a chance of winning the world title, one off victories yes, but against the M1 and Lorenzo they didn't have a hope.
Rossi has also spent a lot of time talking about the Ducati and its turning issues, its front end issues and its savage power delivery issues....not just the shoulder. So whats the point of being able to ride the Ducati like Stoner did and consistently crash? I doubt Rossi has even tried, for it makes no sense and won't get Ducati anywhere they haven't been for 2 years now. It obviously needs to be fixed, whats wrong with fixing it? How do you know the state of the shoulder? That's right you don't, so how about a bit of honesty from you too?
Rossi and Burgess know how to develop a multiple-championship winning machine better than anybody else in the paddock, hence they are approaching the development of the Ducati the way that they know how, and so far their methods and philosophy are far more successful on many more machines than the rider he replaced. Why go backwards for a couple of one-off wins, maybe a top five finish and a bunch of wrecked fairings?
I'm sure many fans are very happy that Rossi is not riding the bike like Stoner did
I don't have much problem with most of this post, the bike obviously needs to be fixed, or more likely radically re-designed, and if ducati have now realised this then rossi and jb are good people to guide it. I think this has developed over time though, I am not sure ducati thought there was all that much wrong with the bike, and as kropotkin has intimated I think rossi was surprised that the bike was as difficult as it is.
Mental, to be honest I think Rossi has already gotten as close to saying just that than he will ever get.
He has dropped hints about the bikes issues, what changes need to be done (major or minor depending on one's views), plus had a decent comment regarding Stoner's telemetry and how he cannot replicate it at this point.
Personally, no top athlete who believes that they are still at the top of their game will or should ever ever come out during competition with comments along the lines of 'I cannot do what he did on the bike blah blah' as that would be admitting defeat which is of course a negative and damaging to one's confidence. These guys live on their ego's telling them that they are the best and to publicly admit that they are not (even when within a small parameter) is something that would not occur.
Gaz
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
two 4th place finishes also helped........
Its safe to say that no one really successfully rode the Ducati in 2009-2010, so saying that Stoner could ride the bike that Rossi is currently on is a fallacy, as he couldn't consistently ride it successfully without crashing, which made it very unpredictable and not a chance of winning the world title, one off victories yes, but against the M1 and Lorenzo they didn't have a hope.
Rossi has also spent a lot of time talking about the Ducati and its turning issues, its front end issues and its savage power delivery issues....not just the shoulder. So whats the point of being able to ride the Ducati like Stoner did and consistently crash? I doubt Rossi has even tried, for it makes no sense and won't get Ducati anywhere they haven't been for 2 years now. It obviously needs to be fixed, whats wrong with fixing it? How do you know the state of the shoulder? That's right you don't, so how about a bit of honesty from you too?
Rossi and Burgess know how to develop a multiple-championship winning machine better than anybody else in the paddock, hence they are approaching the development of the Ducati the way that they know how, and so far their methods and philosophy are far more successful on many more machines than the rider he replaced. Why go backwards for a couple of one-off wins, maybe a top five finish and a bunch of wrecked fairings?
I'm sure many fans are very happy that Rossi is not riding the bike like Stoner did
Thus far - Rossi in MGP has always ridden on top factory bikes - with the one exception being his change to
Yamaha during a fallow period. So realistically - one can only really say Rossi developed one bike. The M1.
And it's fallacious for some to say the Yamaha was a piece of crap until Rossi came along. All the major
Japanese makers have their dominant years and their fallow years. Some people with no real history of
racing seem not to know that Yamaha has been legendary in this field since before they were born with
multiple championships with Rainey, Lawson, Roberts etc etc.
Unlike with the M1 Ross has not been able to repeat his magical overnight
rehabilitation with the Ducati; rather he's got the Bologna Boys to spend a fair amount
of money, on him and his lendary development skills not to mention all
the new parts - and up to this point the whole thing seems be going backwards.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - if it takes having Rossi on the bill to get
Ducati to make a bike that any good rider can compete on - then who could be
against it? I'd love to see all the poor .......s on the current batch of Ducatis
be as competitive as the Hondas and the Tech Trois guys next year.
Nobody here wants to see a repeat of Lawson on the Cagiva.
Yamaha had a very bad 2003 but just a year before in 2002 Biaggi was second in the championship on a Yamaha. And for the 2004 season Furusawa designed the cross plane crankshaft ("big bang"). That was a huge advantage over the competition at the time. But according to some fanboys Yamaha was sht for 100 years before Rossi joined and then he developed the bike alone, out of nowhere...
Joined Apr 2011
636 Posts | 26+
Gold Coast
I think the shoulder thing has started to be a bit of a past issue now, all I hear him say now is about the ...... up turning of the ducati.
In relation to developing bikes, i think its obvious he didnt have much to do with the nsr 500, but the rc211v was built in times when testing wasnt so restricted, and I seem to remember that he spent alot of time stuffing around with it in preseason. Correct me if im wrong though. It also helped though that honda built a weapon pretty much from word go, but him and burgess surely had a bit of a hand in getting it right.
In relation to developing bikes, i think its obvious he didnt have much to do with the nsr 500, but the rc211v was built in times when testing wasnt so restricted, and I seem to remember that he spent alot of time stuffing around with it in preseason. Correct me if im wrong though. It also helped though that honda built a weapon pretty much from word go, but him and burgess surely had a bit of a hand in getting it right.
Well, the M1 did go through some significant changes during 2006-07 and again in 2008 which made it back into a title winning machine, and since 2007 unbeaten even. Rossi and Burgess were also leading development on the best machine to ever grace the Motogp racetrack in the modern era, the RC211V, they also had to re-work the NSR500 a lot in 2000-01 as the Suzuki and the Yamaha were both Stronger than they'd been in a very long time in those years.
And prior to 2004 Yamaha had only scored 1 podium in the 2 previous years so the M1 was definitely in Suzuki territory back then and if you ask Biaggi what the M1 was in 2002-03 I'm sure he'll tell you it was a piece of crap!!
This of course was all changed by Rossi, Burgess and the brilliant Fuwasawa who pioneered the Big bang, which really changed everything for Yamaha. You say one bike, I say 4......
As far as I'm aware the GP11 is still relatively unchanged from last season, the new parts have not arrived yet and far from going backwards, since the Valencia test last year I'd say they've made leaps!
Despite all of you arguing the contrary since Rossi's signing with Ducati, they actually haven't done that much and at this stage are still right in the hunt as up to this point there is no evidence of major monies being spent and the bike is improving........Nicky just got his second podium in 3 years!!
What are you talking about? In 2002 Yamaha got 2 wins, 5 second and 5 third places with Biaggi finishing second in the championship. In 2003 they had a disastrous season true but it wasn't just about the bike, Barros who was supposed to be the lead rider was injured for most of the season.
Sorry typo on 2002, however it still was far from successful and Max was bitter enough to move on to a satellite Honda in 03, I think I was just recalling Max's whinging being much louder and more frequent in those years!
There is really no valid argument saying that Yamaha were not in real trouble in those years and without the Fuwasawa, Rossi and Burgess combo they would have continued to be uncompetitive against the RC211V.
