Toprak to leave yamaha at the end of the year.

MdubSTYLIE · May 22, 2023

I know this isn't motogp news but whatever. I put it here because I hope his future is in gp. I'm a fan of his. His bike skill is extraordinary and I am really interested in seeing what he could do on a gp bike. I know wsbk riders haven't really panned out in gp but I have high hopes that he could because of his skill. The rumors I have heard are bmw in wsbk or Pramac in gp replacing Martin who could go to yamaha. I am all for that. Martin probably feels stuck since he did not get the seat on the factory duc so I understand him going to yamaha. Even though pramac is a better bike all riders desire a factory seat so I get it. So hopefully that is the route Tophat Snozzzeberryfoglue goes I would love to see more talent in gp.

Bern1 · May 22, 2023

It seems Yamaha’s star is burning out. I hope Toprak finds a good seat. Would love for him to do well. He probably should have made the jump before now. Delaying getting into MotoGP never seems to be a good move.

mylexicon · May 22, 2023

Toprak is in tough situation. Yamaha are losing competitiveness a bit in WSBK, and the competitiveness in MotoGP is slipping away. They don't have a strong incentive to change the situation in either series because 1000cc sportbikes don't really drive the motorcycle market anymore, and it sounds like the latest MotoGP formula will face substantive retirement in 2027 (no reason to invest in the current formula).

Looks like he will be going to BMW? If true, it's a little sad because it means he's chasing the money, and giving up on MotoGP. Yamaha are better than BMW and they actually could send him to MotoGP. BMW offer nothing but money, though they do have the technology portfolio to stay in the 1000cc superbike space as emissions regs get tighter.

MdubSTYLIE · May 22, 2023

BMW it is. Thats the last we will hear of him and motogp. He chose a truck of money over his future.

Thread closed.

#22 · May 22, 2023

mylexicon said:
Toprak is in tough situation. Yamaha are losing competitiveness a bit in WSBK, and the competitiveness in MotoGP is slipping away. They don't have a strong incentive to change the situation in either series because 1000cc sportbikes don't really drive the motorcycle market anymore, and it sounds like the latest MotoGP formula will face substantive retirement in 2027 (no reason to invest in the current formula).

Looks like he will be going to BMW? If true, it's a little sad because it means he's chasing the money, and giving up on MotoGP. Yamaha are better than BMW and they actually could send him to MotoGP. BMW offer nothing but money, though they do have the technology portfolio to stay in the 1000cc superbike space as emissions regs get tighter.

I'd say he's chasing the money. He's won a world title, on the 2nd fastest bike but if he can't be in MotoGp then maybe he's just going to ride the money train. Or he knows something we don't regarding Yamaha.

So, who gets the boot? Redding or VDM?

MdubSTYLIE · May 22, 2023

#22 said:
I'd say he's chasing the money. He's won a world title, on the 2nd fastest bike but if he can't be in MotoGp then maybe he's just going to ride the money train. Or he knows something we don't regarding Yamaha.

So, who gets the boot? Redding or VDM?

I'm thinking yamaha said no to gp after his not so good test on the m1. Then there is the fact the Sufaglu said he built Razzberry for WSBK. Which I found to be an odd statement.

Gaz · May 23, 2023

MdubSTYLIE said:
BMW it is. Thats the last we will hear of him and motogp. He chose a truck of money over his future.

Thread closed.

Absolutely chasing the money, but to me there is also nothing wrong with that in today's world of motorcycle racing (more explained in response to 22)

#22 said:
I'd say he's chasing the money. He's won a world title, on the 2nd fastest bike but if he can't be in MotoGp then maybe he's just going to ride the money train. Or he knows something we don't regarding Yamaha.

So, who gets the boot? Redding or VDM?

With the MotoGP side, I actually feel that it is losing it's desirability as a 'must be' place in terms of where riders 'must' go in order to be considered successful. MotoGP is currently (to me anyway) in a changing period , with a push to double weekend races to determine a title, a changing from the old guard of Japanese manufacturers to European and personally, I feel as a result a large Euro-centricity.
The allure, the mystique of MotoGP is waning and absolutely true to ask if this is the 'post Rossi' era, I do not think it is, but rather I feel we are seeing the cycle that occurs where the sport changes and then re-emerges as a different product. We saw it in the lead-up to the early 500cc era where factory teams competed with and against true privateer teams, then into early refined 500cc era (I call this the Rudroff era - where if you had money, anyone could race it), then the late 2 stroke era into the four strokes.
The current era of 4 strokes has been remarkably unchanged for 20 or so years. Yes we had 1000cc, then 800cc and back to 1000 but the overall package or product has seen little in terms of entertainment ingenuity where underdogs were developed not by media but by simply being an underdog and so forth.

As for booting. I suspect it could be either really as one has at times in years past been called difficult in terms of team fit (Redding) personality wise while VDM has severely under-performed against previous seasons, regardless of current kit.

mikesbytes · May 23, 2023

Redding vs VDM might also boil down to money, which rider brings the most sponsorship?

There doesn't seem to be a path from WSBK to MotoGP currently as Moto2 is effectively a cutdown version of MotoGP with its electronics and racing frames making it the class to draw new riders from

Having said that if someone jumped on a satellite Ducati and handed Bautista his arse on a platter, would that give them a ticket to MotoGP? I'm thinking that the WSBK Ducati is closer to a MotoGP bike than the other offerings

MdubSTYLIE · May 23, 2023

Gaz said:
Absolutely chasing the money, but to me there is also nothing wrong with that in today's world of motorcycle racing (more explained in response to 22)

With the MotoGP side, I actually feel that it is losing it's desirability as a 'must be' place in terms of where riders 'must' go in order to be considered successful. MotoGP is currently (to me anyway) in a changing period , with a push to double weekend races to determine a title, a changing from the old guard of Japanese manufacturers to European and personally, I feel as a result a large Euro-centricity.
The allure, the mystique of MotoGP is waning and absolutely true to ask if this is the 'post Rossi' era, I do not think it is, but rather I feel we are seeing the cycle that occurs where the sport changes and then re-emerges as a different product. We saw it in the lead-up to the early 500cc era where factory teams competed with and against true privateer teams, then into early refined 500cc era (I call this the Rudroff era - where if you had money, anyone could race it), then the late 2 stroke era into the four strokes.
The current era of 4 strokes has been remarkably unchanged for 20 or so years. Yes we had 1000cc, then 800cc and back to 1000 but the overall package or product has seen little in terms of entertainment ingenuity where underdogs were developed not by media but by simply being an underdog and so forth.

As for booting. I suspect it could be either really as one has at times in years past been called difficult in terms of team fit (Redding) personality wise while VDM has severely under-performed against previous seasons, regardless of current kit.

Motogp 101 with professor Gaz.

Chasing the bag at the cost of being competitive is the end game of bag chasing. This will be the largest contract he will sign and the most fans he will ever have. Its all downhill from here.

I am surprised you are ok with chasing the money. These guys are rich already. Do you want to be really rich and a champion or really really rich and retire early? In American football we have a thing called home team discount. This is when a star player takes less money to allow the team to sign more high profile players to help when championships. Tom Brady did it his entire career and because of that he is the greatest of all time and makes far more money because of that. JLo chased the bag and it ended him. He was never the same talent after he went to Ducati. Sure he now travels the world taking social media photos in rented lambos wearing gucci glasses but he could have done that anyway. And had he won more championships he would get more of this stuff for free.

mylexicon · May 23, 2023

Selling out is a complex topic. It's worthwhile if the rider is trying to protect his future, and he's acquiring resources that generate future income or career opportunities. It's generally not worthwhile when riders seek a more glamorous lifestyle in the present, and they trade legacy and economic stability for status and trinkets. Sometimes riders are the victims of mismanagement......

Time will reveal the nature of the deal between Toprak and BMW. He will probably be less competitive with the Bavarian brand than he would be with Yamaha, but Bautista is returning next year, and unless the FIM/Pirelli move against Ducati in the name of parity, Toprak probably sees himself as an also-ran in 2024. The big issue is that the two worst teams on the grid are the big-bore (bore/stroke > 1.5) inline-4 engines. It's possible that the latest regulations for parts and electronics make it difficult (impossible?) for Honda and BMW to get their engines under control and settle their chassis. Maybe that's the onus behind hiring Toprak. If you can't get acceleration and drive sorted, just find a guy who is the latest braker?

Imo, this is only a good move for Toprak's on-track results is if BMW are working on a new engine. Manufacturers are currently trying to get their variable cam profile systems to work at high rpm on superbikes. It would be shocking if BMW revised their firing order or architecture in the current regulatory environment. Maybe BMW will prove me wrong, and they will finally get the current M1000RR sorted.

#22 · May 23, 2023

MdubSTYLIE said:
Motogp 101 with professor Gaz.

Chasing the bag at the cost of being competitive is the end game of bag chasing. This will be the largest contract he will sign and the most fans he will ever have. Its all downhill from here.

I am surprised you are ok with chasing the money. These guys are rich already. Do you want to be really rich and a champion or really really rich and retire early? In American football we have a thing called home team discount. This is when a star player takes less money to allow the team to sign more high profile players to help when championships. Tom Brady did it his entire career and because of that he is the greatest of all time and makes far more money because of that. JLo chased the bag and it ended him. He was never the same talent after he went to Ducati. Sure he now travels the world taking social media photos in rented lambos wearing gucci glasses but he could have done that anyway. And had he won more championships he would get more of this stuff for free.

It's a tough one. In the case of someone like JLo. Sure, he was already wealthy enough but I also think Yamaha pissed him off with the Rossi treatment in 2015 and rightfully so, he decided to go to Duc when he was persuaded by Gigi. I agree though, that I cannot think of a single sportsman who chased the money and ended up more successful.

Others, like Ant West....meybe he should have chased more money when he got the chance.

MdubSTYLIE · May 23, 2023

#22 said:
It's a tough one. In the case of someone like JLo. Sure, he was already wealthy enough but I also think Yamaha pissed him off with the Rossi treatment in 2015 and rightfully so, he decided to go to Duc when he was persuaded by Gigi. I agree though, that I cannot think of a single sportsman who chased the money and ended up more successful.

Others, like Ant West....meybe he should have chased more money when he got the chance.

I don't disagree about JLo. I get that he was leaving a toxic pit. A place where he was owning his toxic teammate though.

Funny you mention Ant. I follow him on instagram where is very active. That dude just loves to race bikes. He started a transport company just to raise money to go racing. He was driving all over Oz delivering whatever just to get paid to race. He races to 24 hour motorcycle races and goes to Indonesia just to line up. He is going to grind and race until the day he dies. His dad has a really cool farm in Australia which Ant spends his time at. I will always be a West fan.

Gaz · May 24, 2023

MdubSTYLIE said:
Motogp 101 with professor Gaz.

Chasing the bag at the cost of being competitive is the end game of bag chasing. This will be the largest contract he will sign and the most fans he will ever have. Its all downhill from here.

I am surprised you are ok with chasing the money. These guys are rich already. Do you want to be really rich and a champion or really really rich and retire early? In American football we have a thing called home team discount. This is when a star player takes less money to allow the team to sign more high profile players to help when championships. Tom Brady did it his entire career and because of that he is the greatest of all time and makes far more money because of that. JLo chased the bag and it ended him. He was never the same talent after he went to Ducati. Sure he now travels the world taking social media photos in rented lambos wearing gucci glasses but he could have done that anyway. And had he won more championships he would get more of this stuff for free.

I will never begrudge someone chasing the dollar, although at times I may well disagree with the motive. Unfortunately, it is the mighty dollar that makes the world turn and provides the capability to live, be that buying the esentials or the toys - we need the dollar. On top, and for me, every athlete is entitled to look at a time when they can get retirement money by taking the money and going backwards in terms of competitive prospects. That said, I amd not saying that in this case he has chased retirement money but rather the unlimited potential in technologoical and dollar ways that can be offered at BMW. They may simply care more for the Ducati cup than do the Japanese brands.

The 'team discount' you mention exists here as well, where some sportspeople take 'unders' to try to keep a team together. Sometimes it works and other times it does not although in our market (and I am talking NRL here) often that 'under' involves a 'post retirement' opportunity.

mikesbytes · May 24, 2023

I predicted that Lorenzo would do badly at Ducati but then he did even worse than I thought he would, then the following year he turned it around at Ducati. Difficult to know about his year at Honda as he was plagued with injury. Riders who change manufacturers, each of them has a different story, for Lorenzo it didn't work but for Miller it appears to be working.

What are the stories of changing manufacturers within WSBK?

michaelm · May 24, 2023

mylexicon said:
Toprak is in tough situation. Yamaha are losing competitiveness a bit in WSBK, and the competitiveness in MotoGP is slipping away. They don't have a strong incentive to change the situation in either series because 1000cc sportbikes don't really drive the motorcycle market anymore, and it sounds like the latest MotoGP formula will face substantive retirement in 2027 (no reason to invest in the current formula).

Looks like he will be going to BMW? If true, it's a little sad because it means he's chasing the money, and giving up on MotoGP. Yamaha are better than BMW and they actually could send him to MotoGP. BMW offer nothing but money, though they do have the technology portfolio to stay in the 1000cc superbike space as emissions regs get tighter.

Perhaps Yamaha have told him they are going after Martin or whomever and are not interested in him riding for them in motogp. Starting from the bottom elsewhere in motogp would not be attractive, so taking the money from BMW then becomes attractive as he is not beating Bautista in WSBK this year or next in any case as others have said.

Perhaps the BMW has some prospect of their WSBK being equalised as the Ducati WSBK bike has been. Certainly Audi/Ducati are making hay in both series at the moment which might rankle BMW given their long history as a bike manufacturer for many decades prior to VW Audi acquiring Ducati.

MdubSTYLIE · May 24, 2023

Gaz said:
I will never begrudge someone chasing the dollar, although at times I may well disagree with the motive. Unfortunately, it is the mighty dollar that makes the world turn and provides the capability to live, be that buying the esentials or the toys - we need the dollar. On top, and for me, every athlete is entitled to look at a time when they can get retirement money by taking the money and going backwards in terms of competitive prospects. That said, I amd not saying that in this case he has chased retirement money but rather the unlimited potential in technologoical and dollar ways that can be offered at BMW. They may simply care more for the Ducati cup than do the Japanese brands.

The 'team discount' you mention exists here as well, where some sportspeople take 'unders' to try to keep a team together. Sometimes it works and other times it does not although in our market (and I am talking NRL here) often that 'under' involves a 'post retirement' opportunity.

Begrudge no. Be critical as a fan of theirs and of motorcycle racing yes. I just want to see the best racing possible so it is disheartening to see a great racer take a step backward.

I believe what Michael said above, that yamaha probably choose someone else over him so he bounced out. I get that and respect that. I just would have liked to see him find something better than bmw but maybe they promised him some future in devour that we are unaware of.

Keshav · May 24, 2023

Seems to me the reason why athletes and successful people in general, have that impulse to continue grub more money from whatever source is supplying it do so not for money they can't really spend. It's like stage performers in all arts having a common need for approval; the way a lot of comedians always say the same thing: "That's the only time they really feel alive.".
Same reason why military guys keep signing up for repeated, dangerous tours of duty. After multiple seasons of living on the edge and being surrounded with the support of their crew who constantly pat them on the ... and tell them how great they are, life away from the MotoGp circus would necessarily seem like a huge void. Any of these riders have way more money than they can spend through - unless they're buying multiple yachts. Most, if not all these guys must at some point feel like all the material wealth becomes more or less meaningless. Retail Therapy only goes so far. Being hailed at the race track by crowds 80,000 in number is pretty heady. Nothing else quite compares. Some who are more well balanced may settle down to a more quotidian life, like Stoner, or Tony Hawk or Wayne Rainey. But that's a really hard transition for most of these guys, who grew up racing mini-bikes and have focused their entire life on one narrow goal, and because they come into the sport as immature little boys, their sense of self-awareness (by the time they reach 27 or 30 years old) is not so well-developed. Fortunately there are some recognize the limits of fame and adulation - who move on to being team captains, or starting up charity operations where it is themselves who have to be the mature one, who has to give support to the next generation.

mikesbytes · May 25, 2023

The reporters are having a field day suggesting who can replace Raz. There's some MotoGP and Moto2 names being branded around, no inside info backing those names up

michaelm · May 25, 2023

MdubSTYLIE said:
I know this isn't motogp news but whatever. I put it here because I hope his future is in gp. I'm a fan of his. His bike skill is extraordinary and I am really interested in seeing what he could do on a gp bike. I know wsbk riders haven't really panned out in gp but I have high hopes that he could because of his skill. The rumors I have heard are bmw in wsbk or Pramac in gp replacing Martin who could go to yamaha. I am all for that. Martin probably feels stuck since he did not get the seat on the factory duc so I understand him going to yamaha. Even though pramac is a better bike all riders desire a factory seat so I get it. So hopefully that is the route Tophat Snozzzeberryfoglue goes I would love to see more talent in gp.

Sure, I am similarly disappointed, I really like how he rides, and was more interested in WSBK than I had been in years in his title year.

Still, if he has been knocked back by Yamaha for motogp he probably doesn’t have much of an entree elsewhere, and you can understand why he might not want to stay with them in WSBK as we have both said.

I hope as you do that BMW have something resembling a plan.

Bern1 · May 25, 2023

Superbike used to be a stepping stone for a few, the truly elite riders who could quickly make the step to the premier class. Now it has become a refuge for the MotoGP has beens or never were. Brutal and a little sad is the real world.

Hang around too long there and the rider is doomed to stay there. Who really cares about record number of wins or championships in the junior class? Those who did make the jump late never made it In the big leagues.

Similar to dawdling around in Moto2 or 250 previously. Biaggi paved the way for Zarco. At least Biaggi won some races, he had a factory ride. Zarco, we’re all still waiting and he ain’t getting any younger.

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Toprak to leave yamaha at the end of the year.

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