Tissot Australian Grand Prix 2013
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Geonerd
Truly a rare thing that I disagree with you sir; but it's been pointed out with photographic evidence here in this very thread that he looked more than once.
And recall too, that this was not an endurance race. One second is an eternity in terms of MGP - much more so because of the shortened length of the race
which negated the possibility of MM's frequent MO of spending 90 % of the race nipping at the heels of the two front runners and then dramatically slipping
past them. Everybody was in sprint race mode.
Truly a rare thing that I disagree with you sir; but it's been pointed out with photographic evidence here in this very thread that he looked more than once.
And recall too, that this was not an endurance race. One second is an eternity in terms of MGP - much more so because of the shortened length of the race
which negated the possibility of MM's frequent MO of spending 90 % of the race nipping at the heels of the two front runners and then dramatically slipping
past them. Everybody was in sprint race mode.
Geonerd
Like Keshav, I seldom disagree with you.
I am hardly an apologist for MM's safety record though, and more to the point nor is JL. In this particular case I am going by what Jorge (who was involved in the incident) said, what Gaz (who has marshalled at PI) said, and in fact what you said (imo correctly and precisely) pre-race well in advance of the incident, that the whole thing was a rolling clusterf.
I don't know whether he looked more than once, if not he should have, although having his head swivelled around the whole time would seem impractical. It seems likely that with the re-entry point being blind and the high speed at that part of the track no following riders being in sight even at the exact time of re-entry would not have precluded becoming involved with same anyway. Re-entering more slowly would have been even more dangerous. Someone has argued in this thread that even using a different line, one thing which I guess he could have done, wouldn't have helped.
It more or less goes without saying in any discussion of this nature that MM could have been more cautious. I don't think blaming the incident on him exonerates the race organisers though.
Like Keshav, I seldom disagree with you.
I am hardly an apologist for MM's safety record though, and more to the point nor is JL. In this particular case I am going by what Jorge (who was involved in the incident) said, what Gaz (who has marshalled at PI) said, and in fact what you said (imo correctly and precisely) pre-race well in advance of the incident, that the whole thing was a rolling clusterf.
I don't know whether he looked more than once, if not he should have, although having his head swivelled around the whole time would seem impractical. It seems likely that with the re-entry point being blind and the high speed at that part of the track no following riders being in sight even at the exact time of re-entry would not have precluded becoming involved with same anyway. Re-entering more slowly would have been even more dangerous. Someone has argued in this thread that even using a different line, one thing which I guess he could have done, wouldn't have helped.
It more or less goes without saying in any discussion of this nature that MM could have been more cautious. I don't think blaming the incident on him exonerates the race organisers though.
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Dr No
:thumbs:
:thumbs:
Jumkie
You do know this is considered a dangerous sport, right? That tootling around at 200+MPH hanging onto the outside of a tank of petrol held up close to your nuts was never going to make it as the Nannies Top Five Favourite?
I wonder if it's a geographic thing. I've just yesterday had a long, involved conversation about vaccinations. A bloke was trying to convince me I needed typhoid, yellow fever, hep A and B and malaria inoculations because they were absolutely mandated. I was concerned because my employer has never said anything about getting inoculations, in fact, they said "You don't need any". Said bloke then pointed me to the relevant pages from the CDC and sure 'nuff, there were half a dozen diseases that were listed as 'very recommended' to get inoculations for.
So I head on over to the NZ health department, the Australian Health Department and the UK MOH and see what they have to say. They give a general warning about malaria and say if you are going to spend a lot of time in the jungle, good idea. They say hep B if you intend having unprotected ... and sharing drug paraphenalia and hep A if you are in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, India, Bangladesh - but that washing and prepping food properly is a very sound prophylactic measure to take. To be fair, Austrlaia has regularised hep inoculations for kids, so most of them are already vaccinated.
So, we have two completely different schools of thought as to what is deemed unsafe. The US CDC says you'd be ....... crazy not to get as many jabs as you can and still be able to drink on holiday, the Commonwealth countries say 'here are the risks, here are some sensible precautions'.
So, what I believe we have is a nation that has become intensely risk-averse versus some that believe in people deciding about the level of informed risk they want to subject themselves to, as long as they are informed.
I believe it is the same with GP racing. What you see as almost an admission of attempted murder, a lot of the rest of us see as 'racing incident', as do the riders themselves. Because, of course, the riders have avenues they can go down if they feel a rider is going outside the bounds of safety - as they did, more than once, with Simoncelli. And he was taken to task by the powers that be to be more cautious.
It's a dangerous sport, but they are also extremely gifted and able to control their actions to a level us mere mortals couldn't easily comprehend. They are also wearing some of the finest safety equipment known to man, and are attended by a full mobile operating theatre and extremely competent and motivated professionals.
As you have seen, when it gets dangerous, they put up their hand and want to stop racing - that is, when they get spots of water on their visor and are beetling around on slicks. They will, however, gleefully race round in this:
without a care in the world. Because, they have prepared for the rain and are set up for it. It is no more dangerous than a dry race, if you are careful.
The last death at a GP was Simoncelli. Who was responsible for that? What dangerous manoeuvre contributed to his demise? I would say the fault was entirely his own. A mistake.
The previous one was Tomizawa - again, who was responsible? What dangerous manoeuvre contributed to his demise? He was unlucky? It was a design issue? It was a failure? No, none of that. He fell off at speed and was hit by following riders after he made a mistake. His was the first death in a GP since 2003. More people die fishing than GP racing - it's a dangerous sport made more dangerous by a certain amount of complacency.
GP racing is a dangerous sport, but the things you are screaming about as being akin to sliding a knife in the ribs are nothing more than racing incidents. What is much more dangerous is allowing Hector Barbaric on the track under any circumstances. Sure, some of them may be as a result of an unthinking act by a rider, but the continued (how many posts in this thread alone by you trying to hammer home your point?) shoulda, coulda, woulda 20:20 hindsight argument that one rider is setting up the next victim in the gladiatorial arena that is GP is, in my view, unsustainable.
You do know this is considered a dangerous sport, right? That tootling around at 200+MPH hanging onto the outside of a tank of petrol held up close to your nuts was never going to make it as the Nannies Top Five Favourite?
I wonder if it's a geographic thing. I've just yesterday had a long, involved conversation about vaccinations. A bloke was trying to convince me I needed typhoid, yellow fever, hep A and B and malaria inoculations because they were absolutely mandated. I was concerned because my employer has never said anything about getting inoculations, in fact, they said "You don't need any". Said bloke then pointed me to the relevant pages from the CDC and sure 'nuff, there were half a dozen diseases that were listed as 'very recommended' to get inoculations for.
So I head on over to the NZ health department, the Australian Health Department and the UK MOH and see what they have to say. They give a general warning about malaria and say if you are going to spend a lot of time in the jungle, good idea. They say hep B if you intend having unprotected ... and sharing drug paraphenalia and hep A if you are in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, India, Bangladesh - but that washing and prepping food properly is a very sound prophylactic measure to take. To be fair, Austrlaia has regularised hep inoculations for kids, so most of them are already vaccinated.
So, we have two completely different schools of thought as to what is deemed unsafe. The US CDC says you'd be ....... crazy not to get as many jabs as you can and still be able to drink on holiday, the Commonwealth countries say 'here are the risks, here are some sensible precautions'.
So, what I believe we have is a nation that has become intensely risk-averse versus some that believe in people deciding about the level of informed risk they want to subject themselves to, as long as they are informed.
I believe it is the same with GP racing. What you see as almost an admission of attempted murder, a lot of the rest of us see as 'racing incident', as do the riders themselves. Because, of course, the riders have avenues they can go down if they feel a rider is going outside the bounds of safety - as they did, more than once, with Simoncelli. And he was taken to task by the powers that be to be more cautious.
It's a dangerous sport, but they are also extremely gifted and able to control their actions to a level us mere mortals couldn't easily comprehend. They are also wearing some of the finest safety equipment known to man, and are attended by a full mobile operating theatre and extremely competent and motivated professionals.
As you have seen, when it gets dangerous, they put up their hand and want to stop racing - that is, when they get spots of water on their visor and are beetling around on slicks. They will, however, gleefully race round in this:
without a care in the world. Because, they have prepared for the rain and are set up for it. It is no more dangerous than a dry race, if you are careful.
The last death at a GP was Simoncelli. Who was responsible for that? What dangerous manoeuvre contributed to his demise? I would say the fault was entirely his own. A mistake.
The previous one was Tomizawa - again, who was responsible? What dangerous manoeuvre contributed to his demise? He was unlucky? It was a design issue? It was a failure? No, none of that. He fell off at speed and was hit by following riders after he made a mistake. His was the first death in a GP since 2003. More people die fishing than GP racing - it's a dangerous sport made more dangerous by a certain amount of complacency.
GP racing is a dangerous sport, but the things you are screaming about as being akin to sliding a knife in the ribs are nothing more than racing incidents. What is much more dangerous is allowing Hector Barbaric on the track under any circumstances. Sure, some of them may be as a result of an unthinking act by a rider, but the continued (how many posts in this thread alone by you trying to hammer home your point?) shoulda, coulda, woulda 20:20 hindsight argument that one rider is setting up the next victim in the gladiatorial arena that is GP is, in my view, unsustainable.
the-insider
You think?
http://www.darcyf1.com/download.php?z=23952
Nothing in it. The only contact was when Hernandez dropped into the corner and even then he pulled it up with no issue. Asparagus didn't even wobble, so just how dangerous was it?
You think?
http://www.darcyf1.com/download.php?z=23952
Nothing in it. The only contact was when Hernandez dropped into the corner and even then he pulled it up with no issue. Asparagus didn't even wobble, so just how dangerous was it?
kiddyK
The speed differential thing is what is dangerous. Probably unavoidable (by the riders) in the PI incident. Not in the Willairot incident.
3649211382411237
You do know this is considered a dangerous sport, right? That tootling around at 200+MPH hanging onto the outside of a tank of petrol held up close to your nuts was never going to make it as the Nannies Top Five Favourite?
I wonder if it's a geographic thing. I've just yesterday had a long, involved conversation about vaccinations. A bloke was trying to convince me I needed typhoid, yellow fever, hep A and B and malaria inoculations because they were absolutely mandated. I was concerned because my employer has never said anything about getting inoculations, in fact, they said "You don't need any". Said bloke then pointed me to the relevant pages from the CDC and sure 'nuff, there were half a dozen diseases that were listed as 'very recommended' to get inoculations for.
So I head on over to the NZ health department, the Australian Health Department and the UK MOH and see what they have to say. They give a general warning about malaria and say if you are going to spend a lot of time in the jungle, good idea. They say hep B if you intend having unprotected ... and sharing drug paraphenalia and hep A if you are in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, India, Bangladesh - but that washing and prepping food properly is a very sound prophylactic measure to take. To be fair, Austrlaia has regularised hep inoculations for kids, so most of them are already vaccinated.
So, we have two completely different schools of thought as to what is deemed unsafe. The US CDC says you'd be ....... crazy not to get as many jabs as you can and still be able to drink on holiday, the Commonwealth countries say 'here are the risks, here are some sensible precautions'.
So, what I believe we have is a nation that has become intensely risk-averse versus some that believe in people deciding about the level of informed risk they want to subject themselves to, as long as they are informed.
I believe it is the same with GP racing. What you see as almost an admission of attempted murder, a lot of the rest of us see as 'racing incident', as do the riders themselves. Because, of course, the riders have avenues they can go down if they feel a rider is going outside the bounds of safety - as they did, more than once, with Simoncelli. And he was taken to task by the powers that be to be more cautious.
It's a dangerous sport, but they are also extremely gifted and able to control their actions to a level us mere mortals couldn't easily comprehend. They are also wearing some of the finest safety equipment known to man, and are attended by a full mobile operating theatre and extremely competent and motivated professionals.
As you have seen, when it gets dangerous, they put up their hand and want to stop racing - that is, when they get spots of water on their visor and are beetling around on slicks. They will, however, gleefully race round in this:
without a care in the world. Because, they have prepared for the rain and are set up for it. It is no more dangerous than a dry race, if you are careful.
The last death at a GP was Simoncelli. Who was responsible for that? What dangerous manoeuvre contributed to his demise? I would say the fault was entirely his own. A mistake.
The previous one was Tomizawa - again, who was responsible? What dangerous manoeuvre contributed to his demise? He was unlucky? It was a design issue? It was a failure? No, none of that. He fell off at speed and was hit by following riders after he made a mistake. His was the first death in a GP since 2003. More people die fishing than GP racing - it's a dangerous sport made more dangerous by a certain amount of complacency.
GP racing is a dangerous sport, but the things you are screaming about as being akin to sliding a knife in the ribs are nothing more than racing incidents. What is much more dangerous is allowing Hector Barbaric on the track under any circumstances. Sure, some of them may be as a result of an unthinking act by a rider, but the continued (how many posts in this thread alone by you trying to hammer home your point?) shoulda, coulda, woulda 20:20 hindsight argument that one rider is setting up the next victim in the gladiatorial arena that is GP is, in my view, unsustainable.
The speed differential thing is what is dangerous. Probably unavoidable (by the riders) in the PI incident. Not in the Willairot incident.
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Keshav
Oh no! The pillow biters are having a spat
Looks like Keshav is sleeping on th couch tonight
Oh no! The pillow biters are having a spat
Looks like Keshav is sleeping on th couch tonight
michaelm
The Wilairot incident was comprised of many fails - just Marquez's - but was it irresponsible or just careless or just an accident? I suspect he wasn't paying attention and it all caught up to him at speed. I dare say it won't happen again - he should have learned from that. He could have ruined Wilairot's life.
The Wilairot incident was comprised of many fails - just Marquez's - but was it irresponsible or just careless or just an accident? I suspect he wasn't paying attention and it all caught up to him at speed. I dare say it won't happen again - he should have learned from that. He could have ruined Wilairot's life.
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Reverse the situation, and Lorenzo would have made just as an aggressive re-entry to the track. With a Championship on the line, he would have waited for nobody. Doesn't make it right, but that's what would have happened. Marquez didn't try to run into or block Lorenzo, he tried to race him into Turn 1 and almost managed to pull it off.
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baturro
When have you seen the pit closed during a race? WTF! Not at all, what if another rider came in to pit twice for whatever reason? The pit is to remain open as normal. Marc's .... up did not warrant pit lane to serve as a nanny for him. MotoGP does not revolve around Marc buddy. You keep attempting to place blame on Dorna and race direction for Marc's royal .... up. Bottom line, they were told what to do, and they FAILED!
When have you seen the pit closed during a race? WTF! Not at all, what if another rider came in to pit twice for whatever reason? The pit is to remain open as normal. Marc's .... up did not warrant pit lane to serve as a nanny for him. MotoGP does not revolve around Marc buddy. You keep attempting to place blame on Dorna and race direction for Marc's royal .... up. Bottom line, they were told what to do, and they FAILED!
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Here's the story about Cudlin's phantom black flag;
http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/197310/1/cudlin_explains_phantom_philip_island_black_flag.html
Basically, he came in on Lap 9, swapped bikes, didn't like it so came back in a few laps later and swapped again. Race Direction assumed he had done something similar to Marquez and Staring and mistakenly black flagged him. Cudlin decided to ignore them and finish the race and they have since awarded him the race finish. What a ....... maniac for not stopping hey...
http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/197310/1/cudlin_explains_phantom_philip_island_black_flag.html
Basically, he came in on Lap 9, swapped bikes, didn't like it so came back in a few laps later and swapped again. Race Direction assumed he had done something similar to Marquez and Staring and mistakenly black flagged him. Cudlin decided to ignore them and finish the race and they have since awarded him the race finish. What a ....... maniac for not stopping hey...
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Keshav
Have you not been paying attention?! Its not at all difficult to imagine why he would tempt race authority, because it has been overwhelming WEAK. He has got away with so much ...., why would this be any different was probably his first thought. Quite the opposite of what you conclude, why would he imagine he would be called to account?! Rich you would wit i'm approaching "sophist" territory, so far you haven't made the least dent in classic logic on our little debate man. Perhaps you haven't consulted Kropo enough, I'm sure he's got another stellar bit of spin for you to reiterate.
If he knew? He got a ....... piece of paper that told him what the .... to expect if he failed to comply.
Keshav
Again, it seems you have not been paying attention, not just for this specific event but the season as a whole. Honestly, I don't even know what the .... you are arguing above here. This kid has made a career at ignoring rules. HIM and 4 other members sat around and analyzed Race Direction's official copy (you know, that inconspicuous document that might have got lost in a busy unorganized garage, because normally GP garages are as tranquil Buddhist meditation havens); and the first thought was NOT, ok, lets play it by the rules and obey, their first thought was, ok, how can we game the rules press for a loophole. This is Marc and his team's MO. Even after being told specifically and directly to be mindful, he defiantly stated he would not change! The ....... crew was not going to throw up their hands after he passed by failing to comply. They put on their best game face and pretended nothing was wrong, warmed up the bike and waited for Marc to pit, except everybody else watching knew they had ...... up. But because they 'acted' it out they fooled you and more importantly fooled Marc? Marc was in the room when they discussed what was required of them. Are you going to argue he was kept out of the loop? Perhaps that pit board to pit was really a 'surprise' to him then, haha? Not at all, he knew. What is worse, to announce they were confused about the rule ( that is trying to pass on the blame to race direction, as many have here, including Kropo) or admit they intended to game the system?
I fully believe Race Direction would not have penalized him with a DQ had they not forced their own hand by publishing the punishment before hand. You can bet they learned their lesson, somebody has taken a note to never again publish a penalty for failure to comply; as surely they would have preferred to give Marc the least and minimum penalty possible, as has been the standard.
Have you not been paying attention?! Its not at all difficult to imagine why he would tempt race authority, because it has been overwhelming WEAK. He has got away with so much ...., why would this be any different was probably his first thought. Quite the opposite of what you conclude, why would he imagine he would be called to account?! Rich you would wit i'm approaching "sophist" territory, so far you haven't made the least dent in classic logic on our little debate man. Perhaps you haven't consulted Kropo enough, I'm sure he's got another stellar bit of spin for you to reiterate.
If he knew? He got a ....... piece of paper that told him what the .... to expect if he failed to comply.
Keshav
Again, it seems you have not been paying attention, not just for this specific event but the season as a whole. Honestly, I don't even know what the .... you are arguing above here. This kid has made a career at ignoring rules. HIM and 4 other members sat around and analyzed Race Direction's official copy (you know, that inconspicuous document that might have got lost in a busy unorganized garage, because normally GP garages are as tranquil Buddhist meditation havens); and the first thought was NOT, ok, lets play it by the rules and obey, their first thought was, ok, how can we game the rules press for a loophole. This is Marc and his team's MO. Even after being told specifically and directly to be mindful, he defiantly stated he would not change! The ....... crew was not going to throw up their hands after he passed by failing to comply. They put on their best game face and pretended nothing was wrong, warmed up the bike and waited for Marc to pit, except everybody else watching knew they had ...... up. But because they 'acted' it out they fooled you and more importantly fooled Marc? Marc was in the room when they discussed what was required of them. Are you going to argue he was kept out of the loop? Perhaps that pit board to pit was really a 'surprise' to him then, haha? Not at all, he knew. What is worse, to announce they were confused about the rule ( that is trying to pass on the blame to race direction, as many have here, including Kropo) or admit they intended to game the system?
I fully believe Race Direction would not have penalized him with a DQ had they not forced their own hand by publishing the punishment before hand. You can bet they learned their lesson, somebody has taken a note to never again publish a penalty for failure to comply; as surely they would have preferred to give Marc the least and minimum penalty possible, as has been the standard.
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One of the only decent things to come out of the entire weekend (excluding the excellent Moto3 race of course).
Credit to: https://twitter.com/scottjonesphoto
Credit to: https://twitter.com/scottjonesphoto
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Disclaimer: 7 foot DRAMA QUEEN ahead...
povol
povol
povol
Hahaha, foot in mouth much? You hypocrite.
povol
Instead of taking weak ... pot shots (which ironically describe you) why don't you attempt to refute some of my points. You have made little to no attempt to refute every point made other than you calling the opposition drama queens. I suspect its because you can't. Lets all blame everything else except Marc for not complying with simple written rules; its: Dorna's fault, its Race Direction's fault, its the pit exit's fault, its his team's fault, it's the busy garage's fault, etc.
I can imagine how your eyes welded up with tears when Marc was DQed. It must have been really sad for you not to have him get away with it yet again. No worries, the title fight is not over. Keep your head up big guy.
povol
povol
povol
Hahaha, foot in mouth much? You hypocrite.
povol
3648841382391873
<p style="margin-left:0px;font-size:12px;font-weight:bold;Jumkie, on 21 Oct 2013 - 10:35, said:
Jumkie
You are so desperate for Marquez to lose the title, it borders on psychosis. All of us know your motives, you simply dont want to look like a noob after declaring Marquez overrated and cheater coming out of Moto 2, I guess he should have come to a complete stop, looked both ways and executed proper blinker usage. He blended into the track just fine.You even admitted Lorenzo was a couple of feet of the racing line, well guess what, 2 feet and they dont touch. You queens need to find a new sport, this one is obviously more than your fragile minds can handle. I suggest womens soccer, but do be forewarned, they do break a nail now and then. This bike racing no.
Instead of taking weak ... pot shots (which ironically describe you) why don't you attempt to refute some of my points. You have made little to no attempt to refute every point made other than you calling the opposition drama queens. I suspect its because you can't. Lets all blame everything else except Marc for not complying with simple written rules; its: Dorna's fault, its Race Direction's fault, its the pit exit's fault, its his team's fault, it's the busy garage's fault, etc.
I can imagine how your eyes welded up with tears when Marc was DQed. It must have been really sad for you not to have him get away with it yet again. No worries, the title fight is not over. Keep your head up big guy.
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barbedwirebiker
michaelm
Mike, did you completely ignore my post refuting what you are now repeating? If re-entering the track safely was so impossible how did everybody else manage it EXCEPT Marc Marquez? WTF
Re-entry executed safely was possible, and your insistence to bring up Gaz, in support of Barb and Bat is mind-boggling. Marc simply needed to stay longer on the outside margin instead of pressing the issue and going into the racing line as bikes were in such close proximity. He knew they would be there as he looked back and saw (or should have seen) Lorenzo coming down the straight. He chose not to do so causing a collision. The world has gone ....... mad.
michaelm
Mike, did you completely ignore my post refuting what you are now repeating? If re-entering the track safely was so impossible how did everybody else manage it EXCEPT Marc Marquez? WTF
Re-entry executed safely was possible, and your insistence to bring up Gaz, in support of Barb and Bat is mind-boggling. Marc simply needed to stay longer on the outside margin instead of pressing the issue and going into the racing line as bikes were in such close proximity. He knew they would be there as he looked back and saw (or should have seen) Lorenzo coming down the straight. He chose not to do so causing a collision. The world has gone ....... mad.
kiddyK
We have gone over this too many times but my take is that the Willairot thing was irresponsible on his part, and even more so on the part of his crew. The yellow flag/marshall incident this year was close to irresponsible unless he has an intermittent visual problem as some have suggested which is not impossible. Taking Dani out by cutting his cable was careless.
We have gone over this too many times but my take is that the Willairot thing was irresponsible on his part, and even more so on the part of his crew. The yellow flag/marshall incident this year was close to irresponsible unless he has an intermittent visual problem as some have suggested which is not impossible. Taking Dani out by cutting his cable was careless.
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Dr No
No, because apparently it was impossible to re-enter the race safely. So there is no footage because everybody just parked their bike at the end of the pit exit and sat there. Not even the other inexperienced rookies who have not seen or executed a flag to flag race attempted the maneuver.
(If you have the race recorded, you will see Lorenzo exit the pit and rejoin safely infront of Pedrosa. The thing is that it was done by magic. )
No, because apparently it was impossible to re-enter the race safely. So there is no footage because everybody just parked their bike at the end of the pit exit and sat there. Not even the other inexperienced rookies who have not seen or executed a flag to flag race attempted the maneuver.
(If you have the race recorded, you will see Lorenzo exit the pit and rejoin safely infront of Pedrosa. The thing is that it was done by magic. )
