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shovelhead
And looking at the state of the tires, a likely scenario.
And looking at the state of the tires, a likely scenario.
Tissot Australian Grand Prix 2013
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Geonerd
Desert Varmint
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baturro
MM is entirely free to challenge for the lead, but only if he makes an effort to stay the hell out of the way of hot lap riders as he does so.
His solution, to blindly barge in front and block, is not acceptable.
When the organizers fail, and create a potentially unsafe condition, is is incumbent upon the riders to be aware and to act with due caution.
Two wrongs do not make a right, people.
MM is entirely free to challenge for the lead, but only if he makes an effort to stay the hell out of the way of hot lap riders as he does so.
His solution, to blindly barge in front and block, is not acceptable.
When the organizers fail, and create a potentially unsafe condition, is is incumbent upon the riders to be aware and to act with due caution.
Two wrongs do not make a right, people.
Geonerd
It's not acceptable to you, who has MM crucified for past screw ups and are blinded by that.
Given that this race was ran like an F1 race, what MM did was not technically wrong. Did he put JL into a compromising situation? Sure he did. Given that this race was ran the way it was, the entire circuit was a "hot zone" including the pits and pit lane. This is not the case in 99% of GP races. MM was in the lead at the time going through pits and can occupy space at the lead of the field if he gets there, an he did. The only examples I can offer are again in F1 racing where this is constantly done. I do not deny that it is safer to do this in a car, but correct entry to and from pit was not discussed at the non existent rider brief.
And I firmly believe that if any of the top 4 riders would have found themselves in the situation MM found himself in they would have done the same thing. Or are you telling me that JL would have yielded to MM if the situation was opposite? You know he wouldn't have. But then it your reaction would have been, "the mamba strikes again."
It's not acceptable to you, who has MM crucified for past screw ups and are blinded by that.
Given that this race was ran like an F1 race, what MM did was not technically wrong. Did he put JL into a compromising situation? Sure he did. Given that this race was ran the way it was, the entire circuit was a "hot zone" including the pits and pit lane. This is not the case in 99% of GP races. MM was in the lead at the time going through pits and can occupy space at the lead of the field if he gets there, an he did. The only examples I can offer are again in F1 racing where this is constantly done. I do not deny that it is safer to do this in a car, but correct entry to and from pit was not discussed at the non existent rider brief.
And I firmly believe that if any of the top 4 riders would have found themselves in the situation MM found himself in they would have done the same thing. Or are you telling me that JL would have yielded to MM if the situation was opposite? You know he wouldn't have. But then it your reaction would have been, "the mamba strikes again."
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povol
How much of a speed differential causing collision is safe? 5mph? 10, 15, 30, 40? Lorenzo running wide was a difference of a foot or two, this still doesn't exonerate Marc for leaving and joining the racing line (which is not as wide as a millimeter). Lorenzo explained his entry was not inch perfect, that still doesn't exonerate Marc as you are attempting to laughably do. He simply did not give Lorenzo the space that is reasonable, and it resulted in a collision. I think you can't accept it was dangerous because you think conceding the point will cast a negative light on Marc. Too late. Bottom line, it was the responsibility of the rider exiting the pit to do so without incident. He pressed the issue recklessly.
How much of a speed differential causing collision is safe? 5mph? 10, 15, 30, 40? Lorenzo running wide was a difference of a foot or two, this still doesn't exonerate Marc for leaving and joining the racing line (which is not as wide as a millimeter). Lorenzo explained his entry was not inch perfect, that still doesn't exonerate Marc as you are attempting to laughably do. He simply did not give Lorenzo the space that is reasonable, and it resulted in a collision. I think you can't accept it was dangerous because you think conceding the point will cast a negative light on Marc. Too late. Bottom line, it was the responsibility of the rider exiting the pit to do so without incident. He pressed the issue recklessly.
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lil red rocket pilot
Great question. The penalty point system is supposed to be cumulative. He clearly made an infraction, evidence by the DQ. An infraction should incur an additional penalty point, bringing him to the point of at very least starting from the back. Though I think his pit lane exit was dangerous enough to take him to 10 points resulting in a race suspension.
Given RD's propensity to not do anything adequate, in light of the previous sanction of one point, I wouldn't doubt they start issuing fractional points, like say .5 points, you know, to avoid getting him to 4.
Great question. The penalty point system is supposed to be cumulative. He clearly made an infraction, evidence by the DQ. An infraction should incur an additional penalty point, bringing him to the point of at very least starting from the back. Though I think his pit lane exit was dangerous enough to take him to 10 points resulting in a race suspension.
Given RD's propensity to not do anything adequate, in light of the previous sanction of one point, I wouldn't doubt they start issuing fractional points, like say .5 points, you know, to avoid getting him to 4.
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stiefel
And I'll add, not having the right of way, and specifically breaching the responsibilities of safe pit lane exit. Not only a penalty point should be issues, but as Lil Red has pointed out, the DQ should incur an additional "penalty point" as that is exactly the intent of this system: TO KEEP A RUNNING CUMULATIVE RECORD OF INFARCTIONS so as to issue further sanctions as appropriate.
And I'll add, not having the right of way, and specifically breaching the responsibilities of safe pit lane exit. Not only a penalty point should be issues, but as Lil Red has pointed out, the DQ should incur an additional "penalty point" as that is exactly the intent of this system: TO KEEP A RUNNING CUMULATIVE RECORD OF INFARCTIONS so as to issue further sanctions as appropriate.
Geonerd
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Jumkie
Gotta love these accidental puns.
Infarction: "In medicine, infarction is tissue death (necrosis) caused by a local lack of oxygen, due to an obstruction of the tissue's blood supply. The resulting lesion is referred to as an infarct."
Unless you were making reference to a certain brain-damaged 20 year old motorcycle racer.
Gotta love these accidental puns.
Infarction: "In medicine, infarction is tissue death (necrosis) caused by a local lack of oxygen, due to an obstruction of the tissue's blood supply. The resulting lesion is referred to as an infarct."
Unless you were making reference to a certain brain-damaged 20 year old motorcycle racer.
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If this was Hector Barbera noone would be defending him
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JohnnyKnockdown
Whist I do agree, I must point out that Hector would never be close enough to the front to have contact with Jorge. :smile3:
Whist I do agree, I must point out that Hector would never be close enough to the front to have contact with Jorge. :smile3:
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baturro
you beat me
you beat me
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stiefel
I get where you're coming from - but given that both Lorenzo and Marquez were about equal as regards the time it took for them
to change bikes, and the lap times they were running - the scenario would have probably played out pretty much the same even
if Lorenzo had come in on the 9th lap and MM on the 10th (or vice-versa). Which gives rise to speculating about - what would it have been like if the two of them had both pitted at the same time? I'm imagining what potentially could have happened if the two of them were exiting pit lane with less than
a quarter second gap between them. Hmmm....
Also - for those into endless speculation, consider how easily MM (nearly) matched Lorenzo's pace in that corner despite starting from pit lane -
given that the Honda's handling was suffering pretty badly with the chunking tire on that 11th lap. I can't be arsed to check it out but maybe
someone here will investigate how much (if any) MM's lap times suffered during that last lap on the worn out rubber.
I get where you're coming from - but given that both Lorenzo and Marquez were about equal as regards the time it took for them
to change bikes, and the lap times they were running - the scenario would have probably played out pretty much the same even
if Lorenzo had come in on the 9th lap and MM on the 10th (or vice-versa). Which gives rise to speculating about - what would it have been like if the two of them had both pitted at the same time? I'm imagining what potentially could have happened if the two of them were exiting pit lane with less than
a quarter second gap between them. Hmmm....
Also - for those into endless speculation, consider how easily MM (nearly) matched Lorenzo's pace in that corner despite starting from pit lane -
given that the Honda's handling was suffering pretty badly with the chunking tire on that 11th lap. I can't be arsed to check it out but maybe
someone here will investigate how much (if any) MM's lap times suffered during that last lap on the worn out rubber.
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Jumkie
Seems to me you're taking a rather black and white absolutist tack here. Bottom line is nobody would suggest MM intended to strike Lorenzo.
If anything he made an error in judgement. As we have all learned time and again, racing, even amongst "aliens" is unpredictable and in the heat
of the moment people make errors. Personally I thought on the egregious stupidity meter, this incident was far less brainless than Rossi's move on Stoner
in turn one in the rain.
Seems to me you're taking a rather black and white absolutist tack here. Bottom line is nobody would suggest MM intended to strike Lorenzo.
If anything he made an error in judgement. As we have all learned time and again, racing, even amongst "aliens" is unpredictable and in the heat
of the moment people make errors. Personally I thought on the egregious stupidity meter, this incident was far less brainless than Rossi's move on Stoner
in turn one in the rain.
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I dont know why you guys are so focused on this ..... We had a champion crowned this weekend. Aliex Espargaro greatest crt rider there will ever be.
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baturro
I doubt you would have left Aragon in protest. Think of all the beer you would have left behind, ha! You would have left all your friends there, drinking beers and hanging out, and walked out after paying, because you felt the show was contrived? Hahaha, newsflash, that is the season and the new state of GP in a nutshell. Will you are considering you might have walked out in protest, perhaps you should also boycott the 'farce' as has our buddy Povol. You wouldn't have stayed at least for the curiosity of the race? Frankly I think people are characterizing the event as a "turd" because Marquez ...... up and got DQ. Most likely you would have loved it had Marc won.
The wan't ...... unless you are some purist in believing <u>'arbitrary rules'</u> are sacred. The solution to a condition that wasn't properly prepared for, was to run a shorter race including a pit stop. Neither of these to proceeders are exceedingly confusing, and in fact would be required on a moments notice, on the other hand, this situation was prescribe and to be followed 'before hand'. If there was any confusion, the teams had the opportunity to practice and review the procedures. The fact that it was dry and not suddenly imposed advances the idea that safer conditions existed to execute pit proceeders. Marc literally ...... up the obligations in conducting this race. Again, I ask, what if Marc had decided to race an additional lap in a shortened race? You are attempting to make the case this might have been confusing to him and would have ignored the checkered flag thinking it was supposed to be a longer race. Which is basically what was decided and is not uncommon. He ignored the obligation, either by mistake or whatever. That is where the ".... up" occurred.
baturro
No riders have had to pit during a race? No riders have had to exit a pit? The "rookies" should have been prepared to pit in a flag to flag rain race, but because it was dry, this was especially confusing? They may not have swapped bikes yet, but they surely know they could be called to do so based on conditions. In this case rather than a whether condition, the condition was man made, makes no material difference. They were required to pit as the conditions dictated based on the rules imposed.
WTF, "unknown"??? Hahaha, yeah, "rookie" Marc has never been required to exit a pit safely onto a hot track.
baturro
MotoGP is not F1. False comparison! There is a million reasons why comparing the two is erroneous at best. But I'll just point this out, F1 cars have a contact patch a universe apart from MotoGP. You can start scrutiny to your statement above with that alone, as the premise will fall flat on its face. Second, you pointing out that Marc essentially purposefully accelerated to purposefully disturb Lorenzo, given this is MotoGP advances my opinion that it was in fact ultra dangerous!
baturro
Wait, you are attempting to say this was more dangerous because the weather conditions for this bike swap were not sketchy? WTF.
baturro
Again, this is NOT F1. So explaining why MM did what he did because its done in F1 falls flat on its face.
I doubt you would have left Aragon in protest. Think of all the beer you would have left behind, ha! You would have left all your friends there, drinking beers and hanging out, and walked out after paying, because you felt the show was contrived? Hahaha, newsflash, that is the season and the new state of GP in a nutshell. Will you are considering you might have walked out in protest, perhaps you should also boycott the 'farce' as has our buddy Povol. You wouldn't have stayed at least for the curiosity of the race? Frankly I think people are characterizing the event as a "turd" because Marquez ...... up and got DQ. Most likely you would have loved it had Marc won.
The wan't ...... unless you are some purist in believing <u>'arbitrary rules'</u> are sacred. The solution to a condition that wasn't properly prepared for, was to run a shorter race including a pit stop. Neither of these to proceeders are exceedingly confusing, and in fact would be required on a moments notice, on the other hand, this situation was prescribe and to be followed 'before hand'. If there was any confusion, the teams had the opportunity to practice and review the procedures. The fact that it was dry and not suddenly imposed advances the idea that safer conditions existed to execute pit proceeders. Marc literally ...... up the obligations in conducting this race. Again, I ask, what if Marc had decided to race an additional lap in a shortened race? You are attempting to make the case this might have been confusing to him and would have ignored the checkered flag thinking it was supposed to be a longer race. Which is basically what was decided and is not uncommon. He ignored the obligation, either by mistake or whatever. That is where the ".... up" occurred.
baturro
No riders have had to pit during a race? No riders have had to exit a pit? The "rookies" should have been prepared to pit in a flag to flag rain race, but because it was dry, this was especially confusing? They may not have swapped bikes yet, but they surely know they could be called to do so based on conditions. In this case rather than a whether condition, the condition was man made, makes no material difference. They were required to pit as the conditions dictated based on the rules imposed.
WTF, "unknown"??? Hahaha, yeah, "rookie" Marc has never been required to exit a pit safely onto a hot track.
baturro
MotoGP is not F1. False comparison! There is a million reasons why comparing the two is erroneous at best. But I'll just point this out, F1 cars have a contact patch a universe apart from MotoGP. You can start scrutiny to your statement above with that alone, as the premise will fall flat on its face. Second, you pointing out that Marc essentially purposefully accelerated to purposefully disturb Lorenzo, given this is MotoGP advances my opinion that it was in fact ultra dangerous!
baturro
Wait, you are attempting to say this was more dangerous because the weather conditions for this bike swap were not sketchy? WTF.
baturro
Again, this is NOT F1. So explaining why MM did what he did because its done in F1 falls flat on its face.
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Jumkie
Respectfully disagree. The combined chaos of everyone in the garage not knowing what to expect with the tires, the last minute dithering over the total number of laps changing from minute-to-minute, trying to calculate the correct amount of fuel for each bike, last minute adjustments to set-up to work best with half a tank and still get the tires sufficiently on the out-lap along, changing the end-of-pit-lane marker, with all the other variables - made for a chaotic atmosphere. A number of people including veteran Colin Edwards, were unclear how it was all supposed to shake out. Pit crews work every weekend with a reasonably wide parameter of variables but the Philip Island event had to have had everyone on mental overload. They're humans - not computers. My guess would be it was announced to the crew and the crew chief assumed that everyone understood exactly how it was supposed to play out - but in the real world confusion happens.
Respectfully disagree. The combined chaos of everyone in the garage not knowing what to expect with the tires, the last minute dithering over the total number of laps changing from minute-to-minute, trying to calculate the correct amount of fuel for each bike, last minute adjustments to set-up to work best with half a tank and still get the tires sufficiently on the out-lap along, changing the end-of-pit-lane marker, with all the other variables - made for a chaotic atmosphere. A number of people including veteran Colin Edwards, were unclear how it was all supposed to shake out. Pit crews work every weekend with a reasonably wide parameter of variables but the Philip Island event had to have had everyone on mental overload. They're humans - not computers. My guess would be it was announced to the crew and the crew chief assumed that everyone understood exactly how it was supposed to play out - but in the real world confusion happens.
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the-insider
...And looking at the state of Marc's continued and unfettered propensity to ride dangerously, a likely scenario that it will lead to injury for somebody. The collision he caused exiting the pit forced his hand off the bars, did you see that? So anything could happend, as I'm sure you would agree. Lorenzo's foot peg could have easily pierced Marc's leg. A bit more impact and it could have resulted in Marc's broken leg. Turns out the lever dislocated the sensor cable, in this scenario, the cable dangling from the side of the fork could have also been compromised. Not outlandish, right? Yeah, I can "imagine" plenty of scenarios buddy! Honestly, it should be exceedingly plausible to all of us that anything is likely given the unlikely/unforseen scenario that led to a very real crash by Pedro at Aragon. That is because collision (regardless of impact) can lead to expected and worse 'unexpected' consequences.
...And looking at the state of Marc's continued and unfettered propensity to ride dangerously, a likely scenario that it will lead to injury for somebody. The collision he caused exiting the pit forced his hand off the bars, did you see that? So anything could happend, as I'm sure you would agree. Lorenzo's foot peg could have easily pierced Marc's leg. A bit more impact and it could have resulted in Marc's broken leg. Turns out the lever dislocated the sensor cable, in this scenario, the cable dangling from the side of the fork could have also been compromised. Not outlandish, right? Yeah, I can "imagine" plenty of scenarios buddy! Honestly, it should be exceedingly plausible to all of us that anything is likely given the unlikely/unforseen scenario that led to a very real crash by Pedro at Aragon. That is because collision (regardless of impact) can lead to expected and worse 'unexpected' consequences.
GP is not F1. That's my argument and beef with the situation. There should be NO scheduled pit stops for anything other than "acts of God." Scheduled pit stops are for cars and endurance races. GP is and should always be a race to the flag, be it 10,15, or 28 laps. There should not be any reason for that golden rule to be broken other than again, "acts of God." The only reason this golden rule was changed was for business reasons, and not for the safety of riders. Having riders lap ten times, come in change bikes with ...... tires, and come out again is not "safe." Safe would be having 2 separate 10 lap races at 12.5 points a piece. Or just one shortened race.
I'm not saying that MM pulled out on purpose, I am giving examples of what F1 card do in the exact situation. It is possible that MM pulled out to disrupt JL a'la F1. MM is known for learning from similar situations in the past and doing as he has seen. It would seem plausible that since GP was running F1 style rules, track entrance from the pit applied as well. A rider brief would have possibly avoided the situation.
And in sketchy weather, I am hyperaware of idiots around me. On the road, accidents occur when it's nice out because riders look for the limit and don't tiptoe around corners. That's what I'm saying, and it's probably also true on a track.
And Jum, if this would have happened in Aragon I would have not gone on Sunday. Lost out on my money and ...... off to the hills. Nothing to do with your believed farce of a championship, but because Baturros, are the most hardheaded people in Spain. On principle of not getting what I payed for due to a clusterfuck of ..... decisions by Bridgestone/Dorna/Race Direction I would have taken off to the Pyrenees for a full weekend motorcycle jaunt. Being a lone Spanish/...... I tend to ride alone.
I'm not saying that MM pulled out on purpose, I am giving examples of what F1 card do in the exact situation. It is possible that MM pulled out to disrupt JL a'la F1. MM is known for learning from similar situations in the past and doing as he has seen. It would seem plausible that since GP was running F1 style rules, track entrance from the pit applied as well. A rider brief would have possibly avoided the situation.
And in sketchy weather, I am hyperaware of idiots around me. On the road, accidents occur when it's nice out because riders look for the limit and don't tiptoe around corners. That's what I'm saying, and it's probably also true on a track.
And Jum, if this would have happened in Aragon I would have not gone on Sunday. Lost out on my money and ...... off to the hills. Nothing to do with your believed farce of a championship, but because Baturros, are the most hardheaded people in Spain. On principle of not getting what I payed for due to a clusterfuck of ..... decisions by Bridgestone/Dorna/Race Direction I would have taken off to the Pyrenees for a full weekend motorcycle jaunt. Being a lone Spanish/...... I tend to ride alone.
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Geonerd
Walls on the side of a track are "potentially unsafe conditions". A rider error can be the difference in going from "potentially" to 'lamentable reality'. ...., the entire race ran on a contact patch the size of a fat ...... is a "potentially unsafe condition", Marc barging into another rider just made that condition astronomically worse.
Walls on the side of a track are "potentially unsafe conditions". A rider error can be the difference in going from "potentially" to 'lamentable reality'. ...., the entire race ran on a contact patch the size of a fat ...... is a "potentially unsafe condition", Marc barging into another rider just made that condition astronomically worse.
