The 'Will Joan Mir be the latest rider to be ruined by the Repsol Honda' thread...

[#22]

I remember shortly after Suzuki announced their exit and it was an open secret that Pol would not be at Honda next yr, talk in the paddock was wild with Mir (and Rins to a lesser extent) replacing him. I recall Simon Crafar explaining that of the two, Rins has a smooth riding style that would traditionally suit the Yamaha, whereas Mir is much more of the 'point and shoot' rider that would suit the Honda, as he rides a lot on the front end.

What does concern me though is mid way through the season, Mir was having poor results and was complaining of 'lack of front end feel'. If he thought the Suzuki had a bad front end, wait till he rides the Honda!. I like Mir and want him to succeed on the HRC, but I have my doubts that he will. I hope I'm proven wrong. If not, I think Brad Binder would do well on it.

Discuss.

 

[MichaelBolton]

I would be extremely surprised if he does well on the Honda. I'm not convinced by his skill despite the 2020 championship, which will probably remain as the flukiest in modern era. Surpassing Espargaró should be easy however, but that's the bottom line.

 

[Bern1]

Honda has a clear history of favoring one rider or driver in a team. There is no doubt who that rider is. So, for the last however many years, they have not hired a rider who could really challenge or even help. I don’t see Mir changing this status quo. For starters I don’t think he has any more skill, nerve or discipline than Pol. Yes, I believe he is way overrated. Yes he was world champion one crazy year. So he gets free paddock access from here on out.

 

[Gaz]

Tough one.

To me, a lot depends on what Mir expects of himself and what Honda expects of Mir. i say this as part of me feels or suspects that some of the more recent 'strugglers' at Honda may well be more about ego of a rider not being prepared to change styles or compromise aspects of their style, rather than an outright pig of a machine.

Sure and absolutely true to say that even Marquez has struggled, but so much of this aligns to tyre construction changes to produce a different result and Honda not being able to adjust sufficiently to accomodate/develop/change existing and of course, to me the bigger issue - his injuries.

If Mir comes in with an open mind, no pre-conceptions that the bike must suit him and his style, I suspect he may be a success by direct comparison to everyone after MM and Pedrosa. Now that said, I do fall into a category that is not convinced in any way shape or form that Mir is the next coming or the next big thing as i simply have not seen enough consistency in performance levels.

But I will say that I expect Mir to be better than both Lorenzo and Pol

 

[warthog1]

I really rate Lorenzo.
Withstood a huge amount of pressure from his team mate at Yamaha and from that riders fan base. Head to head definitely came out on top.
Adapted to the Ducati but was treated like .... by the dummkopfs and left.
He didn't stay long at Honda at all.
Maybe he was done anyway by then, but I expect there were big problems with the bike for his high corner speed style and a lack of support.
Disappointing he didn't stay and try anyway.

To be fair Marquez is an absolute marvel with what he can do on a bike and has produced the goods on a very big pay check.
You would not want him riding sombody else's machine if you were Honda.
They should still make more attempt to make the bike rideable for others as Marquez isn't forever.
I hope they do but yeah, as with everyone else here, I don't expect much

 

[ratdeal]

Short answer: yes

Long answer: Mir has shown absolutely nothing besides consistency on a bike that is known to be incredibly rider friendly, and easy to get the most from, at least until this year when his mental focus has been less than optimal when external factors made him lose interest.

The Honda will dispel any myths about his perceived "brilliance", and I expect him to do a lesser job than Rins on a Honda.

He will be treated as a second rider to Marquez, and I've seen nothing to suggest he will outperform expectations. He is about to be humbled, and I expect he won't have the fire nor the motivation to adapt to his new status.

He'll be riding in WSBK within 2 years.

 

[Bern1]

I think Mir has already adapted to his new status and will be phoning in his mediocre performance next year. Just like this year.

 

[Bern1]

I would really love for a young gun to join that team and take it to Marquez like Lorenzo took it to Rossi. But it ain’t gonna be Mir.

The guys that begged off not wanting to join the team either as an explicit or implicit #2 rider obviously didn’t have the oomph to challenge Marquez. I won’t mention any names. So we’ll still be waiting I expect. The king will have to get older and more feeble before anybody knocks him off the throne.

 

[#22]

Tough one.

To me, a lot depends on what Mir expects of himself and what Honda expects of Mir. i say this as part of me feels or suspects that some of the more recent 'strugglers' at Honda may well be more about ego of a rider not being prepared to change styles or compromise aspects of their style, rather than an outright pig of a machine.

Sure and absolutely true to say that even Marquez has struggled, but so much of this aligns to tyre construction changes to produce a different result and Honda not being able to adjust sufficiently to accomodate/develop/change existing and of course, to me the bigger issue - his injuries.

If Mir comes in with an open mind, no pre-conceptions that the bike must suit him and his style, I suspect he may be a success by direct comparison to everyone after MM and Pedrosa. Now that said, I do fall into a category that is not convinced in any way shape or form that Mir is the next coming or the next big thing as i simply have not seen enough consistency in performance levels.

But I will say that I expect Mir to be better than both Lorenzo and Pol

Also depends if Honda bring a better bike for 2023 I guess.

I really rate Lorenzo.
Withstood a huge amount of pressure from his team mate at Yamaha and from that riders fan base. Head to head definitely came out on top.
Adapted to the Ducati but was treated like .... by the dummkopfs and left.
He didn't stay long at Honda at all.
Maybe he was done anyway by then, but I expect there were big problems with the bike for his high corner speed style and a lack of support.
Disappointing he didn't stay and try anyway.

I think Gaz was referring to 2019 Lorenzo. By then he was beaten up after 2 horrible accidents on the Ducati (remember when it high sided him to the moon in Thailand?) and then was crashing the Honda a lot. He was a 3 time WC tomwards the end of his career and he just decided he didn't want to risk it anymore so I don't blame him. He also spent 10 months getting comfortable on the Ducati then had to switch bikes again.

I would really love for a young gun to join that team and take it to Marquez like Lorenzo took it to Rossi. But it ain’t gonna be Mir.

The guys that begged off not wanting to join the team either as an explicit or implicit #2 rider obviously didn’t have the oomph to challenge Marquez. I won’t mention any names. So we’ll still be waiting I expect. The king will have to get older and more feeble before anybody knocks him off the throne.

I have to agree. I think Honda need to bag a rookie who has no misconceptions about how a MotoGp bike should handle.

 

[Mrpurple]

It wont be easy...time to study that Marquez data and adapt.

 

[Gaz]

I think Gaz was referring to 2019 Lorenzo. By then he was beaten up after 2 horrible accidents on the Ducati (remember when it high sided him to the moon in Thailand?) and then was crashing the Honda a lot. He was a 3 time WC tomwards the end of his career and he just decided he didn't want to risk it anymore so I don't blame him. He also spent 10 months getting comfortable on the Ducati then had to switch bikes again.

Absolutely - referring to the Honda lorenzo who was not the Lorenzo of legend (I do strongly rate Lorenzo both in terms of ability, result but for mine, the sheer mental fortitude he displayed in a disunified, single sided, antagonsistic team where he shone.

It is interesting in some ways as well, the amount of people I see in forums that when Lorenzo is discussed seem to forget how metronomically brilliant he was at times. The robotic nature of his track positioning at times for me was bloody awe inspiring.

now in saying that, I do not need 20 riders battling for the same point on track to be entertained as I in many ways see the robotic Lorenzo, the get to first and run of Stoner/Doohan, the bloody mindedness of a Marquez and that type of rider as a must watch. F*ck me I am simple

 

[michaelm]

Absolutely - referring to the Honda lorenzo who was not the Lorenzo of legend (I do strongly rate Lorenzo both in terms of ability, result but for mine, the sheer mental fortitude he displayed in a disunified, single sided, antagonsistic team where he shone.

It is interesting in some ways as well, the amount of people I see in forums that when Lorenzo is discussed seem to forget how metronomically brilliant he was at times. The robotic nature of his track positioning at times for me was bloody awe inspiring.

now in saying that, I do not need 20 riders battling for the same point on track to be entertained as I in many ways see the robotic Lorenzo, the get to first and run of Stoner/Doohan, the bloody mindedness of a Marquez and that type of rider as a must watch. F*ck me I am simple

Sure, I was a Stoner tragic obviously but he was poetry in motion on a bike and I could have watched that guy ride a lap on his own, particularly at PI, for hours, particularly given his propensity for going as fast as a track would allow. Lorenzo when he had the 'butterhammer' thing going was amazing as well. I have never had a problem with a guy who is 10 seconds better winning by 10 seconds, not that it was a good thing when only 4 riders lined up on the grid on bikes which gave them a chance of winning either. I admire MM and FQ for still apparently being able to extract more from a bike than should be possible even with all the equalisation rules, which seem to have resulted in one bike being more equal than others just now

I became a fan of both Lorenzo and MM significantly because of their toughness/mental fortitude as well.

 

[warthog1]

I became a fan of both Lorenzo and MM significantly because of their toughness/mental fortitude as well.

I lost all respect for their opponent as a result of the off the bike pressure, mind games and fan based attacks.
It was very satisfying to see them prevail.

 

[#22]

Absolutely - referring to the Honda lorenzo who was not the Lorenzo of legend (I do strongly rate Lorenzo both in terms of ability, result but for mine, the sheer mental fortitude he displayed in a disunified, single sided, antagonsistic team where he shone.

It is interesting in some ways as well, the amount of people I see in forums that when Lorenzo is discussed seem to forget how metronomically brilliant he was at times. The robotic nature of his track positioning at times for me was bloody awe inspiring.

now in saying that, I do not need 20 riders battling for the same point on track to be entertained as I in many ways see the robotic Lorenzo, the get to first and run of Stoner/Doohan, the bloody mindedness of a Marquez and that type of rider as a must watch. F*ck me I am simple

Great post. I strongly believe that Stoner, Lorenzo and Marquez were never truly appreciated because of the hate glasses worn by the Valeban. It's a shame as their goggles made them miss arguably the greatest riders of their generations. I truly believe all three have Rossi beat on raw talent, who had weak opponents in his early days then won his final 2 titles on better tyres (08) and a dominant bike (09). In fact Lorenzo would have likely beat him in 09 had he not crashed a lot.

Valencia 2015, with all the pressure on him, Lorenzo grabbed pole with arguably one of the best single laps ever in MotoGP.

Sure, I was a Stoner tragic obviously but he was poetry in motion on a bike and I could have watched that guy ride a lap on his own, particularly at PI, for hours, particularly given his propensity for going as fast as a track would allow. Lorenzo when he had the 'butterhammer' thing going was amazing as well. I have never had a problem with a guy who is 10 seconds better winning by 10 seconds, not that it was a good thing when only 4 riders lined up on the grid on bikes which gave them a chance of winning either. I admire MM and FQ for still apparently being able to extract more from a bike than should be possible even with all the equalisation rules, which seem to have resulted in one bike being more equal than others just now

I became a fan of both Lorenzo and MM significantly because of their toughness/mental fortitude as well.

Lorenzo did learn that tactic from Stoner, just going out of the pits and going flat out right away. He practiced it a lot and people criticised him for making racing boring, but no one else had the fortitude to do it!

I miss both of them.

 

[#22]

I lost all respect for their opponent as a result of the off the bike pressure, mind games and fan based attacks.
It was very satisfying to see them prevail.

Definitely. Really showed who he was when he had at least equal opponents.

Bar 2007 (which can be discounted because no one else could ride the 07 Ducati), All of Stoners, Lorenzos and Marquezs titles have been achieved on control tyres and bikes/field a lot closer than in the early 200's. ESPECIALLY in Marquez case, with the closest fields in history.

I began to turn off to Rossi when i read his biography, then more so with his antics with 'the wall' and 'I want Lorenzo out of the team'. Sepang 2015 finished any respect I had for the guy.

 

[Bern1]

Yeah, reading that biography was painful. I still don’t read any news about ross. I care nothing about him and I am not even curious.

The margin between success and failure in motorsports is razor thin. Lorenzo put it all on the line at Ducati and it cost him. Truly a shame that by the time he got to Honda he was running out of room. Marquez and Lorenzo could have been a cool show.

 

[Gaz]

Yeah, reading that biography was painful. I still don’t read any news about ross. I care nothing about him and I am not even curious.

The margin between success and failure in motorsports is razor thin. Lorenzo put it all on the line at Ducati and it cost him. Truly a shame that by the time he got to Honda he was running out of room. Marquez and Lorenzo could have been a cool show.

Totally agree - by the time he gotto Honda he was not the Lorenzo of Yamaha days and for mine, he has never been credited enough for the turnaround at Ducati. I say this as while I have often raised the 'interesting circumstance' that both Dovisioso and Ducati only regained a level of competitiveness on the arrival of Lorenzo (and also, I feel hugely responsible Gabbarini) people forget.

At Ducati, Lorenzo was never an equal rider to Dovisioso in the unofficial eyes of the team (Italian Rider on Italian bike versus Spanish Rider on Italian bike) as they wanted their bike competitive and it just so happened to work better for Dovisioso and we all know teh way Ducati 'looks after their riders'

I actually fully and largely put Lorenzo's issues at HRC down to his years prior with the team atmospheres he had experienced simply burning him out (absolutely also injuries playing a big part).

 

[michaelm]

I lost all respect for their opponent as a result of the off the bike pressure, mind games and fan based attacks.
It was very satisfying to see them prevail.

I had blamed all the anti-Stoner stuff on a rogue element among his fandom, but 2015 made it clear Rossi was orchestrating it all.

A great and perceptive former poster in Birdman, had pointed out that this had always been his modus operandi well in advance of PI and Sepang 2015, being as he described himself someone who had been of all things a Biaggi fan. It honestly hadn’t occurred to me, although as someone who had no horse in the race watching the race live I was somewhat stunned by the last corner Jerez thing with Gibernau, not realising Rossi was making sure a curse was not broken.

 

[michaelm]

Deleted

 

[michaelm]

Totally agree - by the time he gotto Honda he was not the Lorenzo of Yamaha days and for mine, he has never been credited enough for the turnaround at Ducati. I say this as while I have often raised the 'interesting circumstance' that both Dovisioso and Ducati only regained a level of competitiveness on the arrival of Lorenzo (and also, I feel hugely responsible Gabbarini) people forget.