The end of the 250's

With all the trouble the big three had with the jump to four strokes, they will have to bend the rules for sake of the non japanese manufactures. Maybe allow production based engines with no computers (traction control).

Desire to ride 400cc 4 stroke GP bike??..


about 1000%

I've read an article in a Spanish bike mag this week about this topic, it said that the japs were thinking on the lines of a 600cc category to replace 250cc 2 Stroke ASAP.

The bikes would be prototype GP chassis with production based engines (Supersport derived). IMO that should be interesting, we could be talking about +150hp , 120kg bikes. That should be fast, (WSBK fast) and reasonably priced.

Prototype engines is not gonna happen, cause they would cost as much as MotoGP engines, totally requiring expensive F1 technology (those hornets would hit 20K rpm) and it's supposed to be a cheap feeder series.

The 400cc seems a bit underpowered to me, the jump to MotoGP would be huge. And those 400cc bikes would probably be slower than 250cc 2 Strokes.

IMO the first option makes a lot more sense.

About the 125cc sub ...

the 200cc single cylinder 200cc seems less realistic to me, it can't be prototype engine because of the cost, and there's no 200cc 4strokes that can be used for racing. I mean what bikes do use that? Honda Scoopy?? a Scooter engine in a GP bike, THAT WOULD BE AN INSULT to the 125cc category.

So IMO they could go for either 250cc or 450cc single cylinder Motocross derived engines to sub the 125cc category.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ Apr 27 2007, 01:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>well since we mostly watch the races on the tv/pc that's not going to matter much. as long as the racing stay's like it is now i'm fine with it. anyway if u miss the sounds & smells just get urself a chainsaw & fire it up during the races & imagine!




That was going to be my point.. As you say MS made the successful transition, but my vote is for both series to stay as they are.

Ok could someone please educate me as i have as much knowledge of bike engines as a dumb blonde in a strip club...

My understanding is that all classes of gp bikes are prototypes?

So did i understand teo correctly that continueing with the 125/250s as now is too expensive? And that the future of gp's is just one actual gp race not 3 so might as well save time to watch the supersports and superstocks with wsbk, where it actually does what is said on the tin, and forget "motogp" support classes?

Worked a bit out for myself...the 400/600 would be much more expensive to make a prototype than the 125/250s are now?

Anyway production v prototype issue still stands...better get looking for a wsbk forum if i've understood correctly - or set one up got 3-5 years...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pirkkalan GP @ Apr 27 2007, 08:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>My understanding is that all classes of gp bikes are prototypes?
yes
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>So did i understand teo correctly that continueing with the 125/250s as now is too expensive? And that the future of gp's is just one actual gp race not 3 so might as well save time to watch the supersports and superstocks with wsbk, where it actually does what is said on the tin, and forget "motogp" support classes?
No, current 2strokes are cheap, but the manufacturers don't want their image associated to 2stroke engines. Not good for making money. That's why they are changing to 4strokes everywhere.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Worked a bit out for myself...the 400/600 would be much more expensive to make a prototype than the 125/250s are now?
If it includes the engine, yes. Prototype engines are VERY expensive.
A prototype GP chassis with a supersport engine could be quite cheap.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>The 400cc seems a bit underpowered to me, the jump to MotoGP would be huge. And those 400cc bikes would probably be slower than 250cc 2 Strokes.

i don't think so....thats what people thought about the 990/500s..and the 250cc/450cc dirt bikes.... as much as i love a 2stroke...they're dieing and need to be replaced...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 26 2007, 07:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Screw that, i'm buying an rs250 this summer.

I have a '98 for sale. Warantied race driven, reinforced exhaust valves, cracked engine support frame, lots of plastic <u>pices</u>, scraps all over, and runs like a dream

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yamahamer-AL @ Apr 27 2007, 05:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i don't think so....thats what people thought about the 990/500s..and the 250cc/450cc dirt bikes.... as much as i love a 2stroke...they're dieing and need to be replaced...

The 990cc had almost double the displacement than the old 500cc (98% more), the best riders, best engineers and even the manufacturers stopped the development of the 500cc the previous year fearing they might be embarrased if they're new shiny fat bikes were beaten by old junk and they barely managed (remember Sachsenring or Brno).

400cc would only be 60% more displacement, IMO not enough to beat the 2strokes. Unless the rulebook stabs the 2Strokes in the back like they did with MotoGP and include some kind of extrarestriction for the 2strokes.

2 strokes aren't dying, they're been murdered!

Thanks for clearing that up teo. I would hope then that the business decision is taken as such that which is least detrimental to profit: image of 2strokes or producing 4stroke prototype engines. I would hope the removal of two gp classes is not an option. Anyway, all rumours i guess? Time will tell.

Do people think a 4stroke switch would bring yamaha into the classes? Then anyone wondered if this is a case of antiaprilliaism - a conspiracy to get rid of their domination. Japs!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (teomolca @ Apr 28 2007, 12:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The 990cc had almost double the displacement than the old 500cc (98% more), the best riders, best engineers and even the manufacturers stopped the development of the 500cc the previous year fearing they might be embarrased if they're new shiny fat bikes were beaten by old junk and they barely managed (remember Sachsenring or Brno).

400cc would only be 60% more displacement, IMO not enough to beat the 2strokes. Unless the rulebook stabs the 2Strokes in the back like they did with MotoGP and include some kind of extrarestriction for the 2strokes.

2 strokes aren't dying, they're been murdered!

400 vs 250 is the exact same difference as the 800 vs 500.
I think the 400s will be comepetetive after a short development peroid.

Besides, like it or not the transfer to 990 was a huge success in terms of populariy. I guess it was time for the 500 to die. The factories wanted it and the public wanted it.
And look at the development. While the 500s were close in the start, look at how the speed has picked up. No way the 500 would have dropped the lap records as much as the 990s and 800s do.

I think the introduction of small bore 4-strokes will revive the small bore street machines as well and that's a good thing. Good for junior racing, good for beginners that "must" have an R-bike. Good for everyone.

Imagine super stock 200 and 400. Allmost maintainance free compared to the old 2-strokes. user friendly and reliable. Those will be very popular in racing.

"Good for everyone"

Yeah except for those that want to watch (not to mention race) GP, GP and GPeeeeeeee

Superstocks are great. This is gp tho.

Losing the 2 strokes sucks.The sound of them screaming their balls off and the smell of race fuel and oil is unbeatable.Was thinking of selling my minter rs250 chesterfield this summer,but might hold onto it now.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Apr 28 2007, 12:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>400 vs 250 is the exact same difference as the 800 vs 500.
I think the 400s will be comepetetive after a short development peroid.
Yeah precisly, now take a look at the rulebook and notice 2stroke engines have been banned from MotoGP this season, MSMA is perfectly aware that if someone was willing to make a 500c 2stroke engine with the same resources they spend in their 800cc 4stroke engines THEY WOULD TOTALLY GET THEIR ARSES KICKED!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>And look at the development. While the 500s were close in the start, look at how the speed has picked up. No way the 500 would have dropped the lap records as much as the 990s and 800s do.
Of course they would, first, most of the improvement comes from the tyres not the bikes, 2nd since the popularity has indeed increase so have the budgets, more money spent in development. Spend that same amount of cash in 2stroke engines and you'll get same improvements.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>I think the introduction of small bore 4-strokes will revive the small bore street machines as well and that's a good thing. Good for junior racing, good for beginners that "must" have an R-bike. Good for everyone.

Imagine super stock 200 and 400. Allmost maintainance free compared to the old 2-strokes. user friendly and reliable. Those will be very popular in racing.

I don't agree, 4strokes are going to be more expensive cause we aren't talking about stock bikes, we're talking about GP prototypes.
Remember what happened in the 60's? 5 cylinder 125cc engines, 6 cylinder 250cc, well over 20K rpm, required very expensive materials and technology, that's what you get with small bore engines.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (teomolca @ Apr 28 2007, 04:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah precisly, now take a look at the rulebook and notice 2stroke engines have been banned from MotoGP this season,

Was that this year? I thought they did that a couple of years ago?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>MSMA is perfectly aware that if someone was willing to make a 500c 2stroke engine with the same resources they spend in their 800cc 4stroke engines THEY WOULD TOTALLY GET THEIR ARSES KICKED!
That is pure speculation and somthing we will never know.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Of course they would, first, most of the improvement comes from the tyres not the bikes,

2nd since the popularity has indeed increase so have the budgets, more money spent in development. Spend that same amount of cash in 2stroke engines and you'll get same improvements.
The way I see it: 500 strugled a long time just to get past the old records from leaded fuel days. Nothing spectacular and new records were measured in 100s and 10ths.
Tires has seen no spectacualr changes. Two major changes has been adopting to the midrange of the 4-strokes and 1 lap q-tires. Basic construction stays the same and have done so for decades, better, yes, but allways in small steps as in development and evolution, not as in revolution. Rim diameter has gone from 17-16-17 and back to 16 again, nothing new there. It just doesn't make sense that tire development suddenly make a quantum so where do you get that from?
It's more than a far stretch to suggest that the tires are the reason why we see the record suddenly start to drop a second or more for each year, when those drops started at the same time as the 990s were introduced and went into rapid development cycles. That is not first of all about money and resources, but about new technology wiht a huge improvement potential.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>I don't agree, 4strokes are going to be more expensive cause we aren't talking about stock bikes, we're talking about GP prototypes.
Remember what happened in the 60's? 5 cylinder 125cc engines, 6 cylinder 250cc, well over 20K rpm, required very expensive materials and technology, that's what you get with small bore engines.

Obviously I was talking about expected spin off from the smaller classes, and they would be street bike cheap as allways. When it come to the pure prototype bikes it's upto the FIM to make a sensible set of rules. They are allready trying to limit the costs that all motor sports struggle with today.
Obvioulsly they would limit the number of cylinders and most probably they would keep todays limitations. What I expect in the smaller classes would be engines what can't be rebuildt until after a certain amount of races. Similar to F1. Limits on materials are also to be expected as they do on brake rotors today.

I've just read that 250s are contracted to 2012 and a twostroke fuel has been made which is more environmentally friendly than 4stroke's

Comments/confirmations/disagreements please...

Can anyone tell me why does there have to be only 3 classes, why cant the 400 be added to the program ? you cant dump the 250cc bikes off the program !!