Stoner's mental weakness

Noone has said Stoner doesn't have talent - not even me who had a "little" go at him last week. I just thought he needed to grow up a bit - a lot of people disagreed with me and that's ok.



It's funny that there is absolutely zero chance of people on this forum ever agreeing on the fundamental things about Rossi, Stoner, Lorenzo or anyone, yet everyone finds it necessary to argue their point to each new poster, old poster or whoever - then some claim victory and then tell the other person to f#K off or whatever. I wonder how much time you members who have thousands of posts have spent arguing these points (not having a go at anyone, just making an observation and am curious). Ultimately, my view is say what you want to say but I couldn't be bothered arguing about it because there is no point - plus it makes absolutely no difference to my life whether or not I claim some technical victory or not. It is entertaining though when people take some of the stuff personally.



I'm curious to know what happened to Pinky that everyone thinks is Scotty. I used to read a few posts from him but I can't remember what he used to argue. Did he go out in a tower of flames??



Anyway, keep it up. I think we need more races in a season to talk about.

woody996 said:

Noone has said Stoner doesn't have talent -

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Thats a bit of a stupid statement ...... if you asked the yellow Bopparmy to give a show of hands which have never said that ......

I get labelled a bopper but I still believe Stoner has more talent than 80% of the grid. Anyone who doesn't want to admit that Stoner has talent is a true yellow-eyed Rossi .... gobbler. Clearly the pure yellow eyes must think that there is something wrong with me.

woody996 said:

yellow-eyed Rossi .... gobbler

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nice saying



you may not be one, but there is a few of those in the pen here.



Anybody with half a brain knows that none of these guys are "mentally weak" let alone the one guy who up until recently was matching Rossi in wins since 07, which wouldn't say much about Rossi himself if he was only able to match a "mentally weak" rider

Its all just more "Bopper talk", ie. doesn't make much sense at all, and is more in keeping with the kind of prattle that goes on at an English footbal match than at MGP



It would be easier (more successful) to argue that the original poster/dreamer upper of this thread ( Cal. Kid ..... known Stoner sooker ) was "mentally weak", pretty much a forgone conclusion really.

woody996 said:

It's funny that there is absolutely zero chance of people on this forum ever agreeing on the fundamental things about Rossi, Stoner, Lorenzo or anyone, yet everyone finds it necessary to argue their point to each new poster, old poster or whoever - then some claim victory and then tell the other person to f#K off or whatever. I wonder how much time you members who have thousands of posts have spent arguing these points (not having a go at anyone, just making an observation and am curious). Ultimately, my view is say what you want to say but I couldn't be bothered arguing about it because there is no point - plus it makes absolutely no difference to my life whether or not I claim some technical victory or not. It is entertaining though when people take some of the stuff personally.

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You perhaps are venturing into metaphysical/existential territory now, as it could be argued that following sport in general let alone being a fan of a given competitor is fairly pointless in absolute terms. However, as michael philip jagger put it in a vaguely similar context for people of my generation, " I know it's only rock'n roll but I like it ".

mentally weak or not, these riders earn WAY MORE THAN WE DO! ...geessh, if i earn like that, you can tell me anything you want for all i care



but then, if you risk your life on such a dangerous sport, i guess crying from time to time is okay. we all cry for silly reasons.

BarryMachine said:

Anybody with half a brain knows that none of these guys are "mentally weak"...

\

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Anybody with half a brain and a true interest in road racing would remember Anthony Gobert... he'd be the dictionary definition of a mentally weak "one of these guys"...

michaelm said:

You perhaps are venturing into metaphysical/existential territory now, as it could be argued that following sport in general let alone being a fan of a given competitor is fairly pointless in absolute terms. However, as michael philip jagger put it in a vaguely similar context for people of my generation, " I know it's only rock'n roll but I like it ".

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Yes this is the point where people pass from enjoyment of a sport to adoration of its participants... On a psychological level it is comparable to religious zealots who can see no further than the dogma they've been taught. Its is rationally understandable but hard not o point out the ridiculousness of it...

VHMP01 said:

Come on Gaz, you know you could lose that One Rider in a second! And then what do you have as a Manufacturer?



That first point aplies in Racing, but what about Sales? A fast Bike that everyone can ride also means lost more Sales because everybody can ride it (or though it would seem). A one man Rocket (not easy to hit that Jackpot often because other Manufactures will also catch up) means a lot of Sales get lost, take Capirossi and Melandri, and even though Ducati is Italian, they lost possible sales. I am sure Yamaha has sold many more bikes than they would have if only Rossi could have been winning in it since 2004. I know Yamaha may be doing crappy but that depends on Worldwide Economy and many more factors, still you cannot denny Lorenzo (and Even Edwards and Spies with no wins) have help sell M1s.

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V, please tell me how many people own and ride a MGP bike?



The discussion is around MGP, not road sales which in all respect are likely unaffected by MGP sales as they would be more influenced by WSBK sales.



So again, you are Ducati, do you want 1st places or 4ths?











Gaz

Mick D said:

Anybody with half a brain and a true interest in road racing would remember Anthony Gobert... he'd be the dictionary definition of a mentally weak "one of these guys"...

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Don't be an ..... with me. You know exactly what I mean.

Gaz said:

V, please tell me how many people own and ride a MGP bike?



The discussion is around MGP, not road sales which in all respect are likely unaffected by MGP sales as they would be more influenced by WSBK sales.



So again, you are Ducati, do you want 1st places or 4ths?



Gaz

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Gaz, I am not talking about Prototype sales… I am talking about "Win on Sunday sell on Monday", meaning that wins in Prototype Races end up selling street bike no doubt. I understand your point about preferring 1st than 4th places, of course manufactures want 1st. But the whole risk has to be considered, and there is a huge, I mean enormous, risk involved in a One Single Rider dependency. Honda concentrated in Pedrosa since 2006, they have got nowhere really, and when they used to be ridable by most riders they got wins from several of them. Now look at Yamaha, sort of the same fenomenom. I think Ducati is trying to get out of the highest risk of losing their only one Rider/Bike package that could be lost in so many ways; rider gets a better contract proposition, rider deflates, rider gets sick, rider injury, etc. Any of this or so many more scenarios and what would Ducati have?

VHMP01 said:

Gaz, I am not talking about Prototype sales… I am talking about "Win on Sunday sell on Monday", meaning that wins in Prototype Races end up selling street bike no doubt. I understand your point about preferring 1st than 4th places, of course manufactures want 1st. But the whole risk has to be considered, and there is a huge, I mean enormous, risk involved in a One Single Rider dependency. Honda concentrated in Pedrosa since 2006, they have got nowhere really, and when they used to be ridable by most riders they got wins from several of them. Now look at Yamaha, sort of the same fenomenom. I think Ducati is trying to get out of the highest risk of losing their only one Rider/Bike package that could be lost in so many ways; rider gets a better contract proposition, rider deflates, rider gets sick, rider injury, etc. Any of this or so many more scenarios and what would Ducati have?

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V, I understand what you mean as well, but I also feel that the market has greatly changed as in days gone buy you could buy a 'GP Replica' machine which helped the 'win on Sunday, sell Monday' type of scenario. As an example (and from memory) during the 2stroke GP days we could but RZ500, RG500, a range of 250cc race replicas etc, but today we cannot by any replica of a GP Machine (the Desmosedici being the closest but it is a major change).



For mine, the win Sunday, sell Monday ethos is a definite seller within the WSBK series as one can recognise the bikes more readily as being something that they can indeed ride on thepublic roads.



Now I look at ot this way. The 2010 Ducati appears at this stage of the season to have become somewhat sanitised and is no longer the 'beast' that only suited Stoner (who knows, it may be the same if they sort the front end issues) and from a Ducati point this is not good.



But, I do agree that Ducati I feel are looking at the post-Stoner era that they expect (actually started a response somewhere else about that) will be happening within the short term. This is something they do need to look into (as do Yamaha post Rossi - but they look healthy) but is now the time to be doing it, or are they in holding station mode until the 1000cc?











Gaz

woody996 said:

I get labelled a bopper but I still believe Stoner has more talent than 80% of the grid. Anyone who doesn't want to admit that Stoner has talent is a true yellow-eyed Rossi .... gobbler. Clearly the pure yellow eyes must think that there is something wrong with me.

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So if someone says Stoner has zero talent.....they automatically love only Rossi?? What if their favorite rider is Pedrosa or anyone else that is not named Rossi??

that kind of stupidity is only found it boppers. no other rider on the grid commands blind homerism to the degree that Rossi does so you never encounter that problem.

Gaz said:

V, please tell me how many people own and ride a MGP bike?



The discussion is around MGP, not road sales which in all respect are likely unaffected by MGP sales as they would be more influenced by WSBK sales.



So again, you are Ducati, do you want 1st places or 4ths?











Gaz

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then why has Yamaha run a TV commercial for over a year with Rossi and the new R1.....or Ducati putting out a Hayden edition 848, Yamaha had a Rossi rep R6 and a Fiat rep R1?? I would think that there is a market of people that watch MotoGP and will buy the products their races and teams endorse.....Monster and Red Bull are quite popular. The last WSBK rep that I remember is the Bayliss 1098R rep.



Rossi's R1 commercial run in the US.



9726:2005_YZF-R6_a.jpg]



9727:146_0907_03+2009_ducati_848+nicky_hayden_edition.jpg]



9728:Yamaha_R1_LE_Rossi_Rep_2010a.jpg]







I agree that WSBK is "closer" to the streetbike you can buy.

Mastodon said:

that kind of stupidity is only found it boppers. no other rider on the grid commands blind homerism to the degree that Rossi does so you never encounter that problem.

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I was referring to any bopper who doesn't want to admit that Stoner doesn't have talent. That was the context of the conversation but clearly wasn't delivered correctly.

Gaz said:

V, I understand what you mean as well, but I also feel that the market has greatly changed as in days gone buy you could buy a 'GP Replica' machine which helped the 'win on Sunday, sell Monday' type of scenario. As an example (and from memory) during the 2stroke GP days we could but RZ500, RG500, a range of 250cc race replicas etc, but today we cannot by any replica of a GP Machine (the Desmosedici being the closest but it is a major change).



For mine, the win Sunday, sell Monday ethos is a definite seller within the WSBK series as one can recognise the bikes more readily as being something that they can indeed ride on thepublic roads.



Now I look at ot this way. The 2010 Ducati appears at this stage of the season to have become somewhat sanitised and is no longer the 'beast' that only suited Stoner (who knows, it may be the same if they sort the front end issues) and from a Ducati point this is not good.



But, I do agree that Ducati I feel are looking at the post-Stoner era that they expect (actually started a response somewhere else about that) will be happening within the short term. This is something they do need to look into (as do Yamaha post Rossi - but they look healthy) but is now the time to be doing it, or are they in holding station mode until the 1000cc?











Gaz

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This is a chicken/egg scenario if you ask me. Would Ducati be worrying about a post Stoner era if they didn't worry about a post Stoner era. When Ducati started offering money around last year to Lorenzo etc they push away of Stoner began and the continuous focus on trying to help other people ride the bike rather than just supporting Stoner looks to have completed the process. By worrying about losing Stoner they lost him. As Rossi has said you can not have 2 top riders on the one team so why did Ducati need to worry about the other bikes when they had their number 1 winning somewhat regularly. I say karma is a ..... and I hope that they end up with a full compliment of mid packers when Stoner is gone.

FACTORY said:

then why has Yamaha run a TV commercial for over a year with Rossi and the new R1.....or Ducati putting out a Hayden edition 848, Yamaha had a Rossi rep R6 and a Fiat rep R1?? I would think that there is a market of people that watch MotoGP and will buy the products their races and teams endorse.....Monster and Red Bull are quite popular. The last WSBK rep that I remember is the Bayliss 1098R rep.

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Not only that, but motogp technology is used to market less sporty bikes in the range, think of fat old men who love motogp but want to ride a VFR800. The brochure will have pictures of Repsol Hondas and mention how the bikes features are motogp derived.