Stoner to HRC in 2011

Talpa said:

Trifecta!!!

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Trifecta = 'a defecta'!!!

TP70 said:

If he gets a factory ride on a Vespa I will shave my head. Clear enough?

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Clear enough!

TP70 said:

Depth...understand the meaning. Go back to 2005-06. How many riders had the potential to win a race? How many this year. Put it this way. Lets have a bet, I bet that none of those riders I listed wins a race in the next 2 years. Now you bet that at least one of them will. How much do you want to put on it.

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There were only 5 Winners in 2005; BARROS Alex, CAPIROSSI Loris, HAYDEN Nicky, MELANDRI Marco, ROSSI Valentino. 3/5 Italians so a bad example.



There were 7 Winners in 2006; BAYLISS Troy, CAPIROSSI Loris, ELIAS Toni, HAYDEN Nicky, MELANDRI Marco, PEDROSA Dani, ROSSI Valentino. 3/7 Italians and 2/7 Spanish so a bad example too.

TP70 said:

Well said Lex. Amazed that people believe that the riders that are there are the only ones that could be good enough to be there and don't understand that the riders that come out the end of the pipeline are the ones that are put in the top of it. Not to difficult to understand if you put a wider selection in at the top you probably wont end up with 10 riders from 2 countries.

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I do understand your point TP; I wish Mexico had a better chance, but our Economy and Sports Politics are crap. Still, for that matter I wish it really was a 'Whole' World's Championship, which is not and I agree with you. But I do not take it personally against Mexicans, a bit like you do against Australians; you have a better chance than us. Wouldn't it be great if there was this simulator, perhaps a training one, that could be set anywhere, much as a internet connected video game, in which whoever maid most points would get a Chance. I'll keep dreaming.

VHMP01 said:

Clear enough!







There were only 5 Winners in 2005; BARROS Alex, CAPIROSSI Loris, HAYDEN Nicky, MELANDRI Marco, ROSSI Valentino. 3/5 Italians so a bad example.



There were 7 Winners in 2006; BAYLISS Troy, CAPIROSSI Loris, ELIAS Toni, HAYDEN Nicky, MELANDRI Marco, PEDROSA Dani, ROSSI Valentino. 3/7 Italians and 2/7 Spanish so a bad example too.

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My point in regards to depth relating to 2005/6 was on any given weekend there was a chance that 6-8 riders could win. Now on every weekend there is only a chance that 4 riders can win. I agree that this is far more complex than just nationality as bike, 800/1000 and probably a few other things come into play. If the field was stacked with mexicans than the stats you quoted above would probably weigh up in favour of mexicans.

I do understand your point TP; I wish Mexico had a better chance, but our Economy and Sports Politics are crap. Still, for that matter I wish it really was a 'Whole' World's Championship, which is not and I agree with you. But I do not take it personally against Mexicans, a bit like you do against Australians; you have a better chance than us. Wouldn't it be great if there was this simulator, perhaps a training one, that could be set anywhere, much as a internet connected video game, in which whoever maid most points would get a Chance. I'll keep dreaming.

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I don't actually take it as something personal against Australians. As a country we have more than any other country to be thankful for as we are the best country in the world by far (not politically or economically etc etc but location climate etc etc). I am a proud Aussie. What my point in all this and I know you understand is that it is about the future of MotoGP. I worry about the lack of sponsorship, the complete lack of risk management by the governance behind the sport, the limited manufacturers, the 10 year focus on one rider. All these things we should all worry about if we truly love the sport. In my opinion the almost obsessive focus on Spain and Italy is the core of the problem. To make an example that doesn't involve riders just look at running Qatar at night. The prime reason for this is so that the European audience doesn't have to change their habits and can view at a similar time to European rounds. If Dorna wanted to covert the middle eastern audience (which I am sure would be huge if it was given the respect and nurtured) they would focus on when was the best time to hold the race to expand the audience in that part of the world. Can you imagine the potential sponsorship that could flow into MotoGP if an audience was grown in the Middle East? If Dorna wanted to encourage US riders into the lower ranks they would have taken 125 and 250 to Laguna from the start (Rog, I know I have given other reasons for this so I am contradicting myself) to foster a desire in the young riders to make the sacrifices necessary to get into these classes.



I could go on and probably will in another post.

mylexicon said:

If 40 Spaniards and 40 Italians are recruited into GP, law of probability suggests that more of them will make it to the top level. There is nothing special about any particular nation in regards motorcycling abilities. Within a given populace there are only going to be so many world championship types so it's actually better to toss the Spanish and Italian deadwood as quickly as possible and replace them with kids from other continents.



Dorna understand the problem and Suppo has gone on record as saying that the concentration of Spaniards and Italians is bad for the overall health of the competition and the profitability of the sport. Moto2 was designed to widen Dorna's net by introducing a GP class at the national level in North America, Asia, Australia, and South America. Moto2 bikes will make national riders more familiar with GP equipment and it will make their performance more easily understood by GP scouts. Considering the difficulties of running 1000cc engines at most national circuits, it would be wise for Dorna to make another Moto2-like class using 750cc displacement, imo. It might actually replace SBKs in some of the nations that have safety issues.

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I think the americans have been partially well represented over the years, in 08 nearly taking up half the grid

06 4 american riders

07 6 american including 1 wild card and 1 rider swap (team KR)

08 5 american riders including 1 wild card.

Then to top all of that you have 2 gp's in america. What does the uk get ? so stop ya ...... bleating

TP70 said:

Well said Lex. Amazed that people believe that the riders that are there are the only ones that could be good enough to be there and don't understand that the riders that come out the end of the pipeline are the ones that are put in the top of it. Not to difficult to understand if you put a wider selection in at the top you probably wont end up with 10 riders from 2 countries.

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I thought it was pretty obvious

Wander said:

I gotta say that it's quite lucky that the only Finn to enter 125cc world championship in the 2000s actually gets to the top class.

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I'm sure Dornal helped him on his way like they do Bradley Smith and a few others.

Tom said:

I'm sure Dornal helped him on his way like they do Bradley Smith and a few others.

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Yeah, sure

You cannot ignore the history of our sport. Read the statistics since 1949, the number of titles and wins for each nation over 60 years of tough competition. Maybe you'll appreciate the present situation better!

J4rn0 said:

You cannot ignore the history of our sport. Read the statistics since 1949, the number of titles and wins for each nation over 60 years of tough competition. Maybe you'll appreciate the present situation better!

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Total Race Wins All Classes per Country since 1949:



ITALY = 725

GREAT BRITAIN = 364

SPAIN = 344

GERMANY = 173

UNITED STATES = 172

JAPAN = 171

AUSTRALIA = 154

RHODESIA = 70

FRANCE = 66

SWITZERLAND = 65

NETHERLANDS = 57

SOUTH AFRICA = 39

FINLAND = 36

VENEZUELA = 35

NEW ZEALAND = 31

IRELAND = 28

SWEDEN = 23

AUSTRIA = 13

HUNGARY = 13

SAN MARINO = 13

ARGENTINA = 9

BRAZIL = 8

BELGIUM = 7

CZECHOSLOVAKIA = 4

CANADA = 3

CZECH REPUBLIC = 2

Total = 2625



If it helps of anything J4rn0.

J4rn0 said:

You cannot ignore the history of our sport. Read the statistics since 1949, the number of titles and wins for each nation over 60 years of tough competition. Maybe you'll appreciate the present situation better!

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What would be interesting and more relevant would be the number of riders from each nation since the beginning. This could then be compared to race wins to see if one country dominates with the best riders.

VHMP01 said:

Total Race Wins All Classes per Country since 1949:



ITALY = 725

GREAT BRITAIN = 364

SPAIN = 344

GERMANY = 173

UNITED STATES = 172

JAPAN = 171

AUSTRALIA = 154

RHODESIA = 70

FRANCE = 66

SWITZERLAND = 65

NETHERLANDS = 57

SOUTH AFRICA = 39

FINLAND = 36

VENEZUELA = 35

NEW ZEALAND = 31

IRELAND = 28

SWEDEN = 23

AUSTRIA = 13

HUNGARY = 13

SAN MARINO = 13

ARGENTINA = 9

BRAZIL = 8

BELGIUM = 7

CZECHOSLOVAKIA = 4

CANADA = 3

CZECH REPUBLIC = 2

Total = 2625



If it helps of anything J4rn0.

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V, Your new superhero name should "STATMAN"!!!! Weapons of choice - the calculator and the excel spreadsheet!

TP70 said:

What would be interesting and more relevant would be the number of riders from each nation since the beginning. This could then be compared to race wins to see if one country dominates with the best riders.

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What makes the difference is the quality, not the quantity. Agostini and Rossi are only two, yet they total almost 230 wins.... and counting



This idea that some countries have arbitrary advantages in participating to motorcycle championships is rather naif. It would be like blaming the US because they have the most and the best basketball players in the world....! Any "position" in any sport has to be earned in the first place, it is not arbitrarily granted by governing bodies to this or that country.



The present series began in 1949, I think. Do you think that in 1949 Italy had more economical and political weight than Great Britain, even in the small world of motorcycle racing? The only "advantage" Italy ever had in this field was a great passion and dedication, from both manufacturers and riders -- plus a popular culture of racing, a real love for it. Britain and Spain are similar to Italy in this respect, and it's not by chance that these three top the winners' sheet.



It's not their fault if the Russians, to name one, or the Chinese, do not care to take part... If they don't have the same passion and dedication, they will remain non-entitities in motorcycle racing and that's not the fault of Italy, Britain, or Spain.



By the way, counting the riders by nationality for every given year is pretty easy. After doing your Wikipedia homework, you will not find that Italy was surreptitiously filling the grid with only Italians! There have always been many nationalities, and there have been phases of domination by one country or another lasting one or more decades -- first the British and Italians, then the Americans and Australians, and now again the Italians with the Spanish. Maybe another American or Australian phase will come.... and then who knows -- the Chinese, the Indians?! It's open.

J4rn0 said:

What makes the difference is the quality, not the quantity. Agostini and Rossi are only two, yet they total almost 230 wins.... and counting

This idea that some countries have arbitrary advantages in participating to motorcycle championships is rather naif. It would be like blaming the US because they have the most and the best basketball players in the world....! Any "position" in any sport has to be earned in the first place, it is not arbitrarily granted by governing bodies to this or that country.



The present series began in 1949, I think. Do you think that in 1949 Italy had more economical and political weight than Great Britain, even in the small world of motorcycle racing? The only "advantage" Italy ever had in this field was a great passion and dedication, from both manufacturers and riders -- plus a popular culture of racing, a real love for it. Britain and Spain are similar to Italy in this respect, and it's not by chance that these three top the winners' sheet.



It's not their fault if the Russians, to name one, or the Chinese, do not care to take part... If they don't have the same passion and dedication, they will remain non-entitities in motorcycle racing and that's not the fault of Italy, Britain, or Spain.

By the way, counting the riders by nationality for every given year is pretty easy. After doing your Wikipedia homework, you will not find that Italy was surreptitiously filling the grid with only Italians! There have always been many nationalities, and there have been phases of domination by one country or another lasting one or more decades -- first the British and Italians, then the Americans and Australians, and now again the Italians with the Spanish. Maybe another American or Australian phase will come.... and then who knows -- the Chinese, the Indians?! It's open.

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Of course this occurs. But in the contect of the discussion in relation to the state of the championship now, in this time, in this economic climate, with the current cost and complexity in competing I am suggesting that this narrow band of Nationalities that make up the riders and countries with GP's (3 Italy, 3 Spain, 3 US) creates a high risk profile for the sport. Add to it the limited number of manufacturers and the risk profile climbs again. One event could wipe out MotoGP. Honda pull out = MotoGP dead. Spain goes into a depression = MotoGP dead (sponsorship and loss of 3 rounds).



J4rn0 it is also a little naive to suggest that there is not a bias towards Europe. It is not a vindictive bias but one grown out of complacency, nationality of the governance of the sport, ease of attracting sponsorship close to home, supply of race tracks with history etc etc. Tough decisions and tough investments need to be made to keep the sport growing in a competitive global sporting market place which is no longer confined to who turns upto a race track to pay their admission or who could transport their bike over land or by boat to the next race track in the time between races like it would have been in 1949.

TP70 said:

Of course this occurs. But in the contect of the discussion in relation to the state of the championship now, in this time, in this economic climate, with the current cost and complexity in competing I am suggesting that this narrow band of Nationalities that make up the riders and countries with GP's (3 Italy, 3 Spain, 3 US) creates a high risk profile for the sport. Add to it the limited number of manufacturers and the risk profile climbs again. One event could wipe out MotoGP. Honda pull out = MotoGP dead. Spain goes into a depression = MotoGP dead (sponsorship and loss of 3 rounds).



J4rn0 it is also a little naive to suggest that there is not a bias towards Europe. It is not a vindictive bias but one grown out of complacency, nationality of the governance of the sport, ease of attracting sponsorship close to home, supply of race tracks with history etc etc. Tough decisions and tough investments need to be made to keep the sport growing in a competitive global sporting market place which is no longer confined to who turns upto a race track to pay their admission or who could transport their bike over land or by boat to the next race track in the time between races like it would have been in 1949.

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Same could be said about just about everthing,business or sport.

TP70 said:

Of course this occurs. But in the contect of the discussion in relation to the state of the championship now, in this time, in this economic climate, with the current cost and complexity in competing I am suggesting that this narrow band of Nationalities that make up the riders and countries with GP's (3 Italy, 3 Spain, 3 US) creates a high risk profile for the sport. Add to it the limited number of manufacturers and the risk profile climbs again. One event could wipe out MotoGP. Honda pull out = MotoGP dead. Spain goes into a depression = MotoGP dead (sponsorship and loss of 3 rounds).



J4rn0 it is also a little naive to suggest that there is not a bias towards Europe. It is not a vindictive bias but one grown out of complacency, nationality of the governance of the sport, ease of attracting sponsorship close to home, supply of race tracks with history etc etc. Tough decisions and tough investments need to be made to keep the sport growing in a competitive global sporting market place which is no longer confined to who turns upto a race track to pay their admission or who could transport their bike over land or by boat to the next race track in the time between races like it would have been in 1949.

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The way it is is the way it is, even if it is not ideal. There is a huge following for the sport in italy and spain which basically is what sustains the sport along with the japanese bike manufacturers. It is hardly anyone's fault if australia or other countries don't have a corporate base or really a sufficiently large fanbase to sponsor young australian riders; italians probably find entry to elite bocce easier and to afl more difficult in comparison to australians as well. The pathway to recent premier class success being the 125s and 250s hasn't helped non-european riders, with the current at least up till now flawed formula making this more pronounced, tbut they have been the other gp classes for a long time as well.



I am far from being a fan of dorna in general, but they are trying fairly hard in the particular aspect of internationalising the competitors, with the new moto2 formula being particularly designed to this end as far as I understand, and riders like casey stoner reputedly being supported financially to enter the premier class.



You may be right overall, and greater international appeal may be a factor in wsbk eventually becoming dominant, but superbikes are not necessarily flourishing domestically everwhere either.

michaelm said:

You may be right overall, and greater international appeal may be a factor in wsbk eventually becoming dominant,

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Really? At the top end of WSBk there isn't a huge amount of international varyation, there are how many Brits in there? 7 i think

Tom said:

Really? At the top end of WSBk there isn't a huge amount of international varyation, there are how many Brits in there? 7 i think

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We have had the wsbk vs motogp discussion before; i am much more a motogp than a wsbk fan , and wsbk becoming the dominant formula is not what I want personally. It is hard to dismiss the possibility of it happening though, particularly if the current economic climate persists for a long time given the cost structures.



WSBK certainly has a larger number of manufacturers, and while the brits are to the fore at the moment it has fluctuated quite a bit. Perhaps the reason for other nationalities being more prominent are the same as for italians and spaniards in motogp;the USA, UK , Australia etc have prominent domestic sbk competitions rather than 125s or (in the past )250s.

TP70 said:

One event could wipe out MotoGP. Honda pull out = MotoGP dead.

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Honda has already pulled out before. GP didn't collapse. It won't collapse if they pull out this time either. They void left by Hoda would be filled by BMW, Kawasaki, and Aprilia (maybe some other private teams) in some kind of reduced cost version of MotoGP (i.e. bore limited 1000cc and 24L of fuel).



I do agree with the general idea though. I'd like to add Rossi leaves = MotoGP dead. At least for right now b/c the racing has been suspect and the spectacle has been weak over the last few years. Dorna have certainly done a poor job of cultivating business activity from outside of Spain and Italy. I could be off my rocker, but I think Suppo is campaigning very hard to by Ezpeleta's replacement. He's a moto-marketing guru and I think his level headed approach would be good for GP. I don't like his concept of a very limited premier class though. I don't want GP to be a 22 bike club unless some kind of 750cc or 1000cc Moto1 sport creates a fantastic privateer spectacle.

mylexicon said:

Honda has already pulled out before. GP didn't collapse. It won't collapse if they pull out this time either. They void left by Hoda would be filled by BMW, Kawasaki, and Aprilia (maybe some other private teams) in some kind of reduced cost version of MotoGP (i.e. bore limited 1000cc and 24L of fuel).



I do agree with the general idea though. I'd like to add Rossi leaves = MotoGP dead. At least for right now b/c the racing has been suspect and the spectacle has been weak over the last few years. Dorna have certainly done a poor job of cultivating business activity from outside of Spain and Italy. I could be off my rocker, but I think Suppo is campaigning very hard to by Ezpeleta's replacement. He's a moto-marketing guru and I think his level headed approach would be good for GP. I don't like his concept of a very limited premier class though. I don't want GP to be a 22 bike club unless some kind of 750cc or 1000cc Moto1 sport creates a fantastic privateer spectacle.

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The Lexfiles

TP70 said:

..........................

J4rn0 it is also a little naive to suggest that there is not a bias towards Europe. It is not a vindictive bias but one grown out of complacency, nationality of the governance of the sport, ease of attracting sponsorship close to home, supply of race tracks with history etc etc. Tough decisions and tough investments need to be made to keep the sport growing in a competitive global sporting market place which is no longer confined to who turns upto a race track to pay their admission or who could transport their bike over land or by boat to the next race track in the time between races like it would have been in 1949.

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The crucial point to understand is that the present situation is not something arbitrarily decided, it is the result of a decades of history. History cannot be ignored or dismissed. Let us take the example of Spain.



Spain is currently the most powerful nation in motorcycling, because they have created numerous and affordable national cahmapioships that are a real talent pool. They are doing beter than even Italy or Britain in this, since several years. As a result you have more and more young Spanish riders maturing to world championship levels. And you have more and more fans there. More fans, more money, more tracks.



If Spain's national cups for junior riders are more, better and more selective than those of other nations, it is only natural that most young champions will come from there. These young Spanish riders are better than comparable riders from other countries that do not have such numerous and selective junior championships in place. They come from a harder selection. This is important.



So the only way to equalize the field of participation by country, is to improve the sport at the grass root level in the "moto-backward" countries. Any regulation barring better Spanish and Italian riders to enter the world championships only to make room for poorer riders of different nationalities, would be another regulation disaster that our sport does not need. Improving the sport in more countries, with more junior championship and more tracks, that is the only real solution.

J4rn0 said:

What makes the difference is the quality, not the quantity. Agostini and Rossi are only two, yet they total almost 230 wins.... and counting

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Come on Ago!!!!1111

J4rn0 said:

The crucial point to understand is that the present situation is not something arbitrarily decided, it is the result of a decades of history. History cannot be ignored or dismissed. Let us take the example of Spain.



Spain is currently the most powerful nation in motorcycling, because they have created numerous and affordable national cahmapioships that are a real talent pool. They are doing beter than even Italy or Britain in this, since several years. As a result you have more and more young Spanish riders maturing to world championship levels. And you have more and more fans there. More fans, more money, more tracks.



If Spain's national cups for junior riders are more, better and more selective than those of other nations, it is only natural that most young champions will come from there. These young Spanish riders are better than comparable riders from other countries that do not have such numerous and selective junior championships in place. They come from a harder selection. This is important.



So the only way to equalize the field of participation by country, is to improve the sport at the grass root level in the "moto-backward" countries. Any regulation barring better Spanish and Italian riders to enter the world championships only to make room for poorer riders of different nationalities, would be another regulation disaster that our sport does not need. Improving the sport in more countries, with more junior championship and more tracks, that is the only real solution.

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Yeah and limiting the amount of european riders just to have more nationality's regardless of talent would not do much for the close racing we all want to see. Even Casey stoner did his grass roots in the uk..

J4rn0 said:

The crucial point to understand is that the present situation is not something arbitrarily decided, it is the result of a decades of history. History cannot be ignored or dismissed. Let us take the example of Spain.



Spain is currently the most powerful nation in motorcycling, because they have created numerous and affordable national cahmapioships that are a real talent pool. They are doing beter than even Italy or Britain in this, since several years. As a result you have more and more young Spanish riders maturing to world championship levels. And you have more and more fans there. More fans, more money, more tracks.



If Spain's national cups for junior riders are more, better and more selective than those of other nations, it is only natural that most young champions will come from there. These young Spanish riders are better than comparable riders from other countries that do not have such numerous and selective junior championships in place. They come from a harder selection. This is important.



So the only way to equalize the field of participation by country, is to improve the sport at the grass root level in the "moto-backward" countries. Any regulation barring better Spanish and Italian riders to enter the world championships only to make room for poorer riders of different nationalities, would be another regulation disaster that our sport does not need. Improving the sport in more countries, with more junior championship and more tracks, that is the only real solution.

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Great post J4rn0. I agree completely and is what I am trying to say. The effort needs to be made to foster talent right down at the grass roots so in 5 - 7 years time we see riders from a wide spread of countries filtering through the ranks. I am not blaming Spain or Italy even though it may sound like that it is not their fault if they get it right. What I have tried to say is that the governance of the sport needs to look down the line always to mitigate risk which should always involve broadening the audience of spectators and sponsors as well as the participants. None of these things can be done over night. If I was Dorna my number one goal would be getting Moto2 spec championships in every country that has any sort of motorcycle culture just as they should have been doing for the last 10 years with 125 and 250.