Stoner is coming back with Ducati = for testing

paparazzo said:

Thank you for the explanation I can always use help in English.

I know it can get frustrating when you have to deal with the odd Vale 'bopper' who can actually paint you into a corner. I understand you are not used to it. You both asked for proof, I've provided you with Casey outbursts that do not have anywhere near context of Sepang, yet you are still unconvinced. That ego....

Click to expand...

What corner?

Funny but I feel that you have painted yourself or perhaps dug a very deep hole and are scrambling

And actually I suggest you re-read - where do I ask for proof as in FACT (read again) I actually state that CS is temperamental and prone to outbursts ........... go on, read back, I dare you ..............

It is you that is in a corner as you have little to NO facts but a lot of opinion or assumption purporting to be facts (just as we all have opinion ........... difference is that I do not claim mine as fact)

But by all means, keep trying please ............ I am having fun

As for the English help, you needed it as you seem to be getting Assumption, Opinion and Fact confused just as others have done for years on all sides of the fence.

Oh, and as for proof - I am yet to see any that supports your claims that CS WOULD (your words) have acted in the same way ..........

See, if one makes a statements so forthright, one should be prepared to provide proof, irrefutable proof of that statement else it is simply an opinion or assumption, not a fact

paparazzo said:

Who cares! None of this is relevant. I repeat for the 3rd time, it was to bring context to how Casey goes nuts whenever someone is close to him and how he would react to Sepang which was multiple and multiple and multiple times more aggressive than some back marker following close for a few corners during a test.

Click to expand...

But Stoner DID not and DOES not go nuts EVERY time WHENEVER a rider is close ............. that is a fact

He did get temperamental AT TIMES when he is (in his mind) impeded by a slower rider on the line he was trying to take.

Near ALL riders have complained over the years of slower riders on the race line (and yes, that includes Rossi), but Stoner was very vocal and forthright in his complaints.

Was he justified is questionable as whilst at times one could say yes, there were also times when his perception did not seem borne out by the reality or vision available.

Of interest however is that once he had left the sport, Race Control via DORNA recognised that slow riders on racing line was indeed an issue and subsequently started to penalise riders found guilty of the act with 1 penalty point. Not saying that CS had any role to play in the rule implementation (hell, were he, he would likely have called for dq's) but it is indeed coincidental


Edited to change to past tense - Stoner no longer races except in forums

paparazzo said:

Who cares! None of this is relevant. I repeat for the 3rd time, it was to bring context to how Casey goes nuts whenever someone is close to him and how he would react to Sepang which was multiple and multiple and multiple times more aggressive than some back marker following close for a few corners during a test.

Click to expand...

You have provided no evidence of Stoner doing anything except express annoyance with other riders, and even that in practice or testing only and involving absolutely no harm of any kind to them unless you count injuries to pride. As Gaz said, his view on the issues concerned if not his method of promulgating that stance has been rather justified by subsequent rule changes.

Gaz and I have offered Stoner's post 2006 career record in its entirety as evidence that he hasn't taken out another rider in a race including Laguna Seca 2008 where there was passing and re-passing at similar frequency and with similar aggression except over many more laps than was the case at Sepang 2015; you offer that you "know what he would have done".

I can see why Gaz calls you Talps, you repeat his arguments more or less exactly, although Talpa was Australian and not fluent in Quebecois french as far as I am aware.

michaelm said:

You have provided no evidence of Stoner doing anything except express annoyance with other riders, and even that in practice or testing only and involving absolutely no harm of any kind to them unless you count injuries to pride. As Gaz said, his view on the issues concerned if not his method of promulgating that stance has been rather justified by subsequent rule changes.

Gaz and I have offered Stoner's post 2006 career record in its entirety as evidence that he hasn't taken out another rider in a race including Laguna Seca 2008 where there was passing and re-passing at similar frequency and with similar aggression except over many more laps than was the case at Sepang 2015; you offer that you "know what he would have done".

I can see why Gaz calls you Talps, you repeat his arguments more or less exactly, although Talpa was Australian and not fluent in Quebecois french as far as I am aware.

Click to expand...

So perhaps if 2 'boppers' from opposite parts of the world that don'y know each other and repeat the same thing maybe there may actually be some merit to it. Too bad your egos can not accept anything that points Valentino in a positive light or give him the benefit of the doubt on anything.

paparazzo said:

Who cares! None of this is relevant. I repeat for the 3rd time, it was to bring context to how Casey goes nuts whenever someone is close to him and how he would react to Sepang which was multiple and multiple and multiple times more aggressive than some back marker following close for a few corners during a test.

Click to expand...

And I repeat, you don't know what happened in the incident, although it is certain that Stoner didn't take Abraham out in that incident, or any rider in any other incident in the years 2007-2012, only what you assume as is your wont, and ironically have spent the last several weeks justifying Rossi's behaviour in the Sepang incident which very definitely resulted in a rider going down on the basis of provocation. Irony can be fairly ironic, as my brother who actually is an english teacher says.

paparazzo said:

So perhaps if 2 'boppers' from opposite parts of the world that don'y know each other and repeat the same thing maybe there may actually be some merit to it. Too bad your egos can not accept anything that points Valentino in a positive light or give him the benefit of the doubt on anything.

Click to expand...

Egos?

Funny, my ego is quite small, no chip on the shoulder here as personally I can and have accepted the flaws in the riders I support ............. have you?

Seriously, you joined in October as another person left so you are very new to this place in terms of what has gone on in the past so I would suggest that you review much with the search function and you may well be surprised as to the opinions of those you now accuse of have an immovable ego ......... an accusation that could well be levelled at yourself could it not?

As for VR in a positive light, well f*ck me, go back a few pages and read the FULL comments posted as I clearly stated positives about him in particular reference to Laguna Seca 2008 ............ or does that compliment not suit your trolling?

You complain that people cannot accept positive things of Rossi ........... I say certainly there are some, but there are many who have been positive of him but do not worship him and as such they will also be critical of him. Some of these people are Rossi fans, some are not .......... but it happens

But just as you accuse people of not accepting the positives, can we also accuse you of not accepting the negatives?

I may be wrong (damn search button), but I cannot recall you being critical of VR at all and yet the posters you accuse have been critical of riders aside from Rossi.

Suggest that you look in the mirror whilst making those accusations and you will see a person similar to the ones your are accusing ..........

As for Rossi, I have already typed this in response to a few of your other threads - I do not like him and I have reasons - I will not besmirch his record or his riding ability (go on, use that search function and you will find that I do not besmirch his riding).


EDIT to add on the bopper front.

Absolutely but interestingly 2 is a small number and in the bigger scheme of things it takes more than two to form a valid theory.

Conversely, if because you two have similar thought it must be meritable, does not the same courtesy apply to those with opposing views?

paparazzo said:

So perhaps if 2 'boppers' from opposite parts of the world that don'y know each other and repeat the same thing maybe there may actually be some merit to it. Too bad your egos can not accept anything that points Valentino in a positive light or give him the benefit of the doubt on anything.

Click to expand...

Again, how about arguing your position, my or Gaz's egos are irrelevant to you having presented no arguments or evidence; argumentum ad hominem and the "strawman" logical fallacy and your hypotheses about what a retired rider might have done but didn't actually do in his entire career, which seem to be all you have, don't cut it.

Recent posts on here have concerned you placing Casey Stoner in a negative light and Gaz and I disagreeing in any case, which we are both happy to do by presenting arguments rather than by argumentum ad hominem concerning the possible size of your ego.

Rafa said:

Couldn't find any interesting reads on GPX. What's better than GP15? Any early news?

Click to expand...

Ducati did not bring the new GPX or GP16 to Valencia, that's why there are no pictures. Dall'Igna said it was a technical choice as they needed to understand the Michelin better before finalizing the chassis options for next year.

I don't think the bike will look different. Yamaha and Honda have made changes to the weight distribution to accomodate +2 liters of fuel, but Ducati already had 22 liters in the tank.

The engine is good, nothing really to change there. I think the main changes will be in the chassis: besides adapting the frame to Michelin, they need to improve stability under brakes (what Dovi has been complaining about this season). I would expect some changes in the front of the chassis for that purpose, including maybe a shortening the front engine support brackets, that are now longer than Honda's for example. One can also expect a general effort to lower the center of gravity a bit.

Aerodynamics have been visually prominent in the 2015 bike. Some kind of fins are probably there to stay as they take care of the downward load and help extracting air from the radiator (Ducati's engine runs very hot), allowing also to optimize the air flow around the fairing for top speed.

I'm confident Dall'Igna will keep listening to the two Andreas even if Stoner will be very fast on the bike as it is -- not repeating the previous mistake they made with Stoner (Stoner is fast = the bike is fine)!

J4rn0 said:

I'm confident Dall'Igna will keep listening to the two Andreas even if Stoner will be very fast on the bike as it is -- not repeating the previous mistake they made with Stoner (Stoner is fast = the bike is fine)!

Click to expand...

Have to be honest here J4 and say that whilst CS is back, it is a shame that we no longer get to see Preziosi and I do hope that at some stage Ducati get him back to the paddock, as afterall whilst he was involved in developing the inrideable beast, it was his brilliance that helped get that illusive title (with the likes of Suppo, Gabbarini, Stoner etc)

Whilst we all laud Stoner, we also overlook the input of Preziosi (IMO)

J4rn0 said:

Ducati did not bring the new GPX or GP16 to Valencia, that's why there are no pictures. Dall'Igna said it was a technical choice as they needed to understand the Michelin better before finalizing the chassis options for next year.

I don't think the bike will look different. Yamaha and Honda have made changes to the weight distribution to accomodate +2 liters of fuel, but Ducati already had 22 liters in the tank.

The engine is good, nothing really to change there. I think the main changes will be in the chassis: besides adapting the frame to Michelin, they need to improve stability under brakes (what Dovi has been complaining about this season). I would expect some changes in the front of the chassis for that purpose, including maybe a shortening the front engine support brackets, that are now longer than Honda's for example. One can also expect a general effort to lower the center of gravity a bit.

Aerodynamics have been visually prominent in the 2015 bike. Some kind of fins are probably there to stay as they take care of the downward load and help extracting air from the radiator (Ducati's engine runs very hot), allowing also to optimize the air flow around the fairing for top speed.

I'm confident Dall'Igna will keep listening to the two Andreas even if Stoner will be very fast on the bike as it is -- not repeating the previous mistake they made with Stoner (Stoner is fast = the bike is fine)!

Click to expand...

They are not going to build another radical bike, they know they have to build a bike to suit the current control tyre, as you have quoted Dall'Igna as actually saying.

It would seem likely the carbon fibre bike was well advanced before the control tyre came in and hence designed to suit a tyre which no longer existed. I, like Gaz, regret Presiozi's demise, whatever else he designed a bike when Ducati Corse was a tiny operation which won a championship against the might of Honda and Yamaha.

I would love to see Ducati at the front consistently again regardless of whether Stoner is involved.

Gaz said:

Have to be honest here J4 and say that whilst CS is back, it is a shame that we no longer get to see Preziosi and I do hope that at some stage Ducati get him back to the paddock, as afterall whilst he was involved in developing the inrideable beast, it was his brilliance that helped get that illusive title (with the likes of Suppo, Gabbarini, Stoner etc)

Whilst we all laud Stoner, we also overlook the input of Preziosi (IMO)

Click to expand...

Here here. We agree on something. Rossi possibly had a hand in his ouster based on him critical of the bike then again remember reading somewhere he was having problems with the use of his hands, not sure. Audi also took over at that time and installed Gobmeier which obviously didn't work out. Too bad though, would be interesting to see Preziosi.

michaelm said:

..........
I would love to see Ducati at the front consistently again regardless of whether Stoner is involved.

Click to expand...

Agree on that, although I feel someone like Stoner is required to give a solid reference point to the current and future Ducati riders. Maybe Dovi is too settled in his own style, but someone like Iannone (or Redding) could be flexible enough to take full advantage of it.

Having access to Stoner's telemetry on a Ducati could give Iannone the same chance Marquez had -- many overlook or ignore this, but Marquez had Stoner's telemetry to study at Honda, and -- as I heard Bruno Leoni saying, -- in fact he studied it diligently and did his best to apply it, adding plenty of his own talent of course.

It's not something to be underestimated.

Gaz said:

Have to be honest here J4 and say that whilst CS is back, it is a shame that we no longer get to see Preziosi and I do hope that at some stage Ducati get him back to the paddock, as afterall whilst he was involved in developing the inrideable beast, it was his brilliance that helped get that illusive title (with the likes of Suppo, Gabbarini, Stoner etc)

Whilst we all laud Stoner, we also overlook the input of Preziosi (IMO)

Click to expand...

Since he left Ducati, Preziosi has been under a 3-years non-disclosure agreement -- i.e. he gets money but should keep quiet about Ducati and avoid any collaboration with other manufacturers. I know he's been taking care of his health and family, basically.

His brilliance showed in the design of an 800cc screamer that was super-powerful and, thanks to fine electronic mapping, used less fuel than the less powerful Honda and Yamaha 2007 engines. Remeber when the japanese were suspecting Ducati could have extra fuel hidden in their trellis frame? That was Preziosi's great moment.


I

I miss the Ducati 800 screamer, such a sweet sounding bike.

#22 said:

I miss the Ducati 800 screamer, such a sweet sounding bike.

Click to expand...

And no VSG!!

paparazzo said:

Here here. We agree on something. Rossi possibly had a hand in his ouster based on him critical of the bike then again remember reading somewhere he was having problems with the use of his hands, not sure. Audi also took over at that time and installed Gobmeier which obviously didn't work out. Too bad though, would be interesting to see Preziosi.

Click to expand...

Have no doubt that the lack of forward progress with Ross/Burgess there played a role in his removal but suspect also that it certainly was not the only reason given the lack of results achieved, the takeover and his failing health.

Interesting to see J4's comments regarding the 3 years and so I do hope at some time we hear from him if his health allows.

Of even more interest is the talk that due to the VW issues and likely penalties, that Ducati may again find themselves on the market and where this places the entire MGP efforts

J4rn0 said:

Since he left Ducati, Preziosi has been under a 3-years non-disclosure agreement -- i.e. he gets money but should keep quiet about Ducati and avoid any collaboration with other manufacturers. I know he's been taking care of his health and family, basically.

His brilliance showed in the design of an 800cc screamer that was super-powerful and, thanks to fine electronic mapping, used less fuel than the less powerful Honda and Yamaha 2007 engines. Remeber when the japanese were suspecting Ducati could have extra fuel hidden in their trellis frame? That was Preziosi's great moment.


I

Click to expand...

Yep, recall the 'stories' and the others around at the time that alluded to 'how the f*ck did they do that' type of commentary, from media, teams, riders and factories.

Unfortunate to read of the 3 years J4, but also understandable as I suspect that his knowledge would be very beneficial to other teams in a number of ways, so to lock him away (so to speak) whilst the technology advanced was a smart business move.

That said, I do hope we see and hear from him again somewhere as his mind should not be wasted and it would be interesting to hear his comments regarding his time at Ducati and what he feels of MGP today

Saw this video highlights package of the 2009 Australian GP on YouTube.

Shows him drifting through turn 3, and that nasty drift he had through Lukey Heights. The final lap through turn 3 just makes me giggle like a child.



That kid was incredibly special...what he could do with a motorcycle defied belief.

So now Casey is saying that he feels Marquez and his crew are or were threatened by him...
MotoGP News - Stoner: Marquez felt threatened with me at Honda

If he is going to throwing BS like that around then he needs to get off his retired ..., and ask to race from day 1 of 2016...Casey being as good as he was on the old Duc then he should be able to win on the 2016 at Qatar, even on Michelins, with no problem at all...

It sounds to me like maybe Casey is a bit bitter about MM overshadowing Casey's legacy within 5 minutes of arriving at HRC...

Hi Migs, I don't think Stoner is saying anything some of us already knew. Except when some of us say it, it's just conspiracy, until tid bits come out to confirm it. Maybe you should start listening to me more often. Casey is basically confirming what some of us said at the time, that Marquez's crew .... blocked Stoner's return to racing.

I doubt it was Marquez specifically, I'd bet it was his chickenshit crew, who I think are slime balls, particularly Santi & Alzamora.

Edit to add: I think Marquez doesn't think like this. I don't think he is this Machiavellian mastermind like Rossi, who has been known to veto teammates who were threats to him. Rossi didn't want Casey along side him and he did everything he could to get away from Lorenzo. I'm glad Yamaha had more balls at the time not to cave in to Rossi's pressure to make Lorenzo number 2. So Rossi left. Of course his return was brokered by the League, who under Carmelo has considerable influence. Honda had an opportunity to veto Marc's crew's influence, but given at the time they were looking at a 3rd title with Marquez, perhaps Nakamoto was persuaded not to upset the dynamic. Marquez is a much pure racer than Rossi ever was, I doubt he is preoccupied with racing politics like Rossi, Santi Hernandez, and Alzamora, similar to Alberto Puig. Those guys advance their careers through pulling power politics.