Stoner is coming back with Ducati = for testing

paparazzo said:

Put it into perspective, Rossi was into his 30's when these guys came up while these guys were significant younger. I am not saying they are better or VR is better, just saying that at some races Rossi has come out on top many times even against the mighty Stoner in the field.

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The number of times Rossi has beaten the riders mentioned - are simply fewer than the opposite. In racing you don't get extra points for being older. Rossi was very much in his prime when racing against Stoner 2007-2008 and Stoner still kicked his ..., on a bike that was, to put it gently, idiosyncratic at best. Stoner, less experienced in the premiere class was not awarded extra points for being less experienced or having to ride a bike that depended on him regularly saving the front end on his slider; a bike that was compared to a bucking bronco with a cattle prod up it's ... - to put it in perspective.

paparazzo said:

Put it into perspective, Rossi was into his 30's when these guys came up while these guys were significant younger. I am not saying they are better or VR is better, just saying that at some races Rossi has come out on top many times even against the mighty Stoner in the field.

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You can say Rossi is better if you like, certainly his overall record is the best and a case can be made that his absolute peak level was as good or better than anyone else's.

My point was that beating him even in races rather than championships garnered other riders nothing but resentment or even hatred among a section of his fandom which was not insignificant. You keep complaining about the bias on this forum, but I guess in your view all the other forums which are full of anti-MM and anti-JL vitriol are just revealing the obvious truth.

I give you credit for fighting your own corner btw when you are in a minority opinion on this forum currently, but you need to do more than just complain about this and call your opponents "haters". Several of the posters you are debating on here are veterans of defending Stoner in 2008-10 or Nicky Hayden in 2006 when to do so was very much a minority position even on here.

michaelm said:

You can say Rossi is better if you like, certainly his overall record is the best and a case can be made that his absolute peak level was as good or better than anyone else's.

My point was that beating him even in races rather than championships garnered other riders nothing but resentment or even hatred among a section of his fandom which was not insignificant. You keep complaining about the bias on this forum, but I guess in your view all the other forums which are full of anti-MM and anti-JL vitriol are just revealing the obvious truth.

I give you credit for fighting your own corner btw when you are in a minority opinion on this forum currently, but you need to do more than just complain about this and call your opponents "haters". Several of the posters you are debating on here are veterans of defending Stoner in 2008-10 or Nicky Hayden in 2006 when to do so was very much a minority position even on here.

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On certain days he was better on certain days they were better despite taking on these guys on the decline from his peak.

I do not know what was going on here before October 2015, I can speak for the present. Anything positive on Vale, even hard facts are instantly rebuffed by 5-6 people with questional mental state here multiple times as if to purposely dilute and stop debate and spun into something negative. I post my opinion and come back the 6 hours later to find 5 pages of vitriol tossed at me and Valentino, as if I have some emotional attachment to him. I 'like' him but not in a literal way. I state the obvious because you clearly have some mental patients with Asperger disorder here who take the word 'like' literal. I 'like' the sport I 'like Rossi and would love to go for a beer with him but this whole circus does not consume me.

I don't care of the 'veteran' Stoner boppers here. The races are the same in Quebec as t hey are all over and I also have watched Stoner's career can debate anyone but the syntax police here get all uptights. I can assure you had it been Casey in Valentino's position, where Casey was in title fight with 2 races to go in the calendar and had to put up with a rider who was not involved in the championship passing him 10 times and trying to induce a crash he would have rammed him. Casey is more temperamental and more tight wound than Valentino.

paparazzo said:

On certain days he was better on certain days they were better despite taking on these guys on the decline from his peak.

I do not know what was going on here before October 2015, I can speak for the present. Anything positive on Vale, even hard facts are instantly rebuffed by 5-6 people with questional mental state here multiple times as if to purposely dilute and stop debate and spun into something negative. I post my opinion and come back the 6 hours later to find 5 pages of vitriol tossed at me and Valentino, as if I have some emotional attachment to him. I 'like' him but not in a literal way. I state the obvious because you clearly have some mental patients with Asperger disorder here who take the word 'like' literal. I 'like' the sport I 'like Rossi and would love to go for a beer with him but this whole circus does not consume me.

I don't care of the 'veteran' Stoner boppers here. The races are the same in Quebec as t hey are all over and I also have watched Stoner's career can debate anyone but the syntax police here get all uptights. I can assure you had it been Casey in Valentino's position, where Casey was in title fight with 2 races to go in the calendar and had to put up with a rider who was not involved in the championship passing him 10 times and trying to induce a crash he would have rammed him. Casey is more temperamental and more tight wound than Valentino.

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Again you miss my point, which was not about Stoner vs Rossi as riders, but that several of the people you are accusing of ganging up on you were quite happy to debate against 8 or 10 opponents or more themselves in former times, and by arguing their position, not by complaining about bullying or considering that calling an opponent a "hater" answered any argument.

I have directed no personal abuse at you at all, merely disagreed with your opinion. Your every post on the other hand is full of personal abuse of other posters, if not me personally, but I guess that's different because you are "right".

(EDIT As Gaz has said and I intended to say you are just making things up about Stoner rather than providing any evidence for your position, which I suspect is one reason why people get annoyed with you. In an almost exactly similar situation at Laguna Seca 2008 which went on for several more laps and Stoner fairly definitely rather than theoretically had better whole lap pace he avoided both riders going down twice, on the second occasion by electing to put his bike into the sand, and on the first occasion when Rossi was going to ram him, although not volitionally. As Gaz said, after the accident he caused in his rookie year, in which he overlooked a corner and had an accident with following riders, he didn't take another rider down in the whole of his remaining career, not even by a riding error let alone a dirty move).

paparazzo said:

On certain days he was better on certain days they were better despite taking on these guys on the decline from his peak.

I do not know what was going on here before October 2015, I can speak for the present. Anything positive on Vale, even hard facts are instantly rebuffed by 5-6 people with questional mental state here multiple times as if to purposely dilute and stop debate and spun into something negative. I post my opinion and come back the 6 hours later to find 5 pages of vitriol tossed at me and Valentino, as if I have some emotional attachment to him. I 'like' him but not in a literal way. I state the obvious because you clearly have some mental patients with Asperger disorder here who take the word 'like' literal. I 'like' the sport I 'like Rossi and would love to go for a beer with him but this whole circus does not consume me.

I don't care of the 'veteran' Stoner boppers here. The races are the same in Quebec as t hey are all over and I also have watched Stoner's career can debate anyone but the syntax police here get all uptights. I can assure you had it been Casey in Valentino's position, where Casey was in title fight with 2 races to go in the calendar and had to put up with a rider who was not involved in the championship passing him 10 times and trying to induce a crash he would have rammed him. Casey is more temperamental and more tight wound than Valentino.

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No you can't .............. unless you are Casey Stoner

And FWIW, Stoner was whilst in MGP one of the cleanest riders in terms of passing and failure to impact others (Gibernau 2006 / Bautista 2012 or 2011 aside) when making passing moves.

Stoner had ample opportunity to get frustrated throughout his career, least Laguna 2008 (not one of the last 2 races admittedly) but did not even try to force Rossi wide where Rossi was riding in a manner extremely similar to that of the now accused Marquez (Stoner had been fastest all weekend but when VR got in front, he gave a lesson on race craft and blocking).

As for temperamental, there are different types and whilst Stoner was highly strung and was well known for his 'lashing out at' other riders (RdP for example), he was never accused (from memory) of ever riding another off track and so forth. Yes he would occasionally speak out of turn (thus the moaner nickname) but he was not known for placing others in dangerous positions either accidentally or deliberately.

Rossi's Sepang meltdown was just that ............. a meltdown. It was a loss of control that manifested itself for reasons known to him and he allowed the emotion this caused to over ride what would generally be his logical senses and self. In the end, his emotions and his loss of control of these emotions led him to make a small series of deliberate actions (that he admitted) that resulted in another rider falling.

Both situations are temperamental but on the self control front, one could well argue that VR's temperamental display outweighs any of the individual CS performances

Gaz said:

As for temperamental, there are different types and whilst Stoner was highly strung and was well known for his 'lashing out at' other riders (RdP for example), he was never accused (from memory) of ever riding another off track and so forth. Yes he would occasionally speak out of turn (thus the moaner nickname) but he was not known for placing others in dangerous positions either accidentally or deliberately.

Rossi's Sepang meltdown was just that ............. a meltdown. It was a loss of control that manifested itself for reasons known to him and he allowed the emotion this caused to over ride what would generally be his logical senses and self. In the end, his emotions and his loss of control of these emotions led him to make a small series of deliberate actions (that he admitted) that resulted in another rider falling.

Both situations are temperamental but on the self control front, one could well argue that VR's temperamental display outweighs any of the individual CS performances

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Laguna was a picnic compared to Sepang. How on earth does it compare when riders, journalists and others said they've never seen anything like it?

And by the way, does the name Karel Abraham mean anything to you? This guy was attacked by Casey on the race track (and off) at a test, A TEST , simply because he didn't get out of the way fast enough and then Casey went postal when he started following close behind, brake checks him and bangs fairings with him. Please do not talk to me about Casey Stoner.

paparazzo said:

Laguna was a picnic compared to Sepang. How on earth does it compare when riders, journalists and others said they've never seen anything like it?

And by the way, does the name Karel Abraham mean anything to you? This guy was attacked by Casey on the race track (and off) at a test, A TEST , simply because he didn't get out of the way fast enough and then Casey went postal when he started following close behind, brake checks him and bangs fairings with him. Please do not talk to me about Casey Stoner.

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As Gaz and I have both said, Casey Stoner was involved in no incident after the accident involving Gibernau in 2006 which took another rider down to which you respond with a different contention; this can be extended to practice in any case if you wish whether or not you like his attitude to riders dawdling on the racing line or seeking tows.

Your evidence for the Karel Abraham thing? No footage exists of which I am aware.

Did you actually watch the LS 08 race? How exactly was the racing different from Sepang 2015 apart from VR having a different role, and Stoner avoiding collision in response to an error and a deliberate manoeuvre from VR. He even refrained from accusing Rossi of brake checking as you do not in regard to an incident which no observer including you has seen.

paparazzo said:

Laguna was a picnic compared to Sepang. How on earth does it compare when riders, journalists and others said they've never seen anything like it?

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Because the Sepang issues were AGAINST Rossi and not because he was doing them.

Also, because the Seca issues were often out of camera shot as Seca is not covered for the full length by cameras

paparazzo said:

And by the way, does the name Karel Abraham mean anything to you? This guy was attacked by Casey on the race track (and off) at a test, A TEST , simply because he didn't get out of the way fast enough and then Casey went postal when he started following close behind, brake checks him and bangs fairings with him. Please do not talk to me about Casey Stoner.

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Question for you ..........

How can one follow closely behind AND brake check?

As for the Abraham incident, yes I know of it well ..........

There was an issue on track ........ Abraham was slow on the line ..... CS did his usual (just as I mentioned he had a penchant .......... read back again) and Abraham took offence. The alleged fairing bashing has two sides - Abraham felt it was deliberate whereas Stoner felt it was caused by Abraham changing direction whilst Stoner was going past ..............

As for Sepang being harder than Seca ............. suggest you review Seca again. The issues that Stoner had with Rossi at that race were that Rossi rode SToner to the edge of the track and near forced him off the side many times whilst taking Stoner's line .......... sound familiar?

Stoner had NO issue with the famous cork screw incident

Ok, so you don't want to talk of Stoner (funny, is it becaue he is cleaner or because he is better?) but you excuse ALL of the incidents that are similar where Rossi was the perpetrator and claim that MM was dangerous when Rossi has done precisely the same on track. Rossi got Rossi'd and did not like it, just as his fans don't

Oh and did I watch Seca ............well funny but yes .............. many times, and not just the corkscrew incident but the whole race which remains one of the best displays of race craft that I have seen in the last 10 years. Rossi was sublime in the way he placed his bike where the faster rider wanted to be and slowed the pace of that same slower rider.

Oh, and speaking of brake checks that you have accused Stoner of performing ........... last turn, Laguna was called much the same by a number of observers, but I guess that is different no (suggest you use that not functioning search button to find the discussion)?

michaelm said:

As Gaz and I have both said, Casey Stoner was involved in no incident after the accident involving Gibernau in 2006 which took another rider down to which you respond with a different contention; this can be extended to practice in any case if you wish whether or not you like his attitude to riders dawdling on the racing line or seeking tows.

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Actually Mick, the hilarious thing with regards to CS' complaints about slow riders on tracing lines is that after he left the sport, they introduced a rule regarding riders slow on racing line.

Subsequently, Rossi is one of those that has fallen foul of the rule (along with many Moto3 and Moto2 riders.

michaelm said:

As Gaz and I have both said, Casey Stoner was involved in no incident after the accident involving Gibernau in 2006 which took another rider down to which you respond with a different contention; this can be extended to practice in any case if you wish whether or not you like his attitude to riders dawdling on the racing line or seeking tows.

Your evidence for the Karel Abraham thing? No footage exists of which I am aware.

Did you actually watch the LS 08 race? How exactly was the racing different from Sepang 2015 apart from VR having a different role, and Stoner avoiding collision in response to an error and a deliberate manoeuvre from VR. He even refrained from accusing Rossi of brake checking as you do not in regard to an incident which no observer including you has seen.

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'Evidence'? You seriously think this is a court and I am on trial. Has it consumed you this much?

Look it up yourself it is well documented, no footage is needed since Casey admitted to it. There is a footage where Karel goes straight into the garage to confront him and Casey yelling with his helmet on, how ironic is that. Why Casey, why you no remove helmet???????

And spare me your condescending tone, I did see Laguna, and I'll repeat, it is a complete picnic compared to Sepang, it's just that Casey is a big cry baby and would always moan whenever anyone applied a tight pass or got close to him. He called 2-3 tight passes 'the closest racing I've ever been in'. Sepang had 15 passes in 2 laps. This is really only possible if one of the 2 are sandbagging. MM had easy 4-5/10ths of a second pace on Rossi the whole weekend. Casey would have gone nuts at Sepang with the exact same context being in Rossi position. You know this, why not just be man enough to admit it?

Gaz said:

As for the Abraham incident, yes I know of it well ..........

There was an issue on track ........ Abraham was slow on the line ..... CS did his usual (just as I mentioned he had a penchant .......... read back again) and Abraham took offence. The alleged fairing bashing has two sides - Abraham felt it was deliberate whereas Stoner felt it was caused by Abraham changing direction whilst Stoner was going past ..............


Ok, so you don't want to talk of Stoner (funny, is it becaue he is cleaner or because he is better?) but you excuse ALL of the incidents that are similar where Rossi was the perpetrator and claim that MM was dangerous when Rossi has done precisely the same on track. Rossi got Rossi'd and did not like it, just as his fans don't

Oh and did I watch Seca ............well funny but yes .............. many times, and not just the corkscrew incident but the whole race which remains one of the best displays of race craft that I have seen in the last 10 years. Rossi was sublime in the way he placed his bike where the faster rider wanted to be and slowed the pace of that same slower rider.

Oh, and speaking of brake checks that you have accused Stoner of performing ........... last turn, Laguna was called much the same by a number of observers, but I guess that is different no (suggest you use that not functioning search button to find the discussion)?

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I did not accuse him of brake checks, Karel Abraham did.

There really is no reason to go into detail about this incident. It was brought up to provide some context on Casey's hot temper. If he would get all uptight because some back marker followed close during a practice, kindly explain how he would not have gone nuts being passed 8 times and having to re-pass MM 8 times, in 2 laps, by someone who could lap 1/2 a second faster than him? You are seriously telling me he would not have reacted??You are also free to admit that Casey had a huge chip on his shoulder.

paparazzo said:

Look it up yourself it is well documented, no footage is needed since Casey admitted to it. There is a footage where Karel goes straight into the garage to confront him and Casey yelling with his helmet on, how ironic is that. Why Casey, why you no remove helmet???????

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Stoner DOES not admit any brake check as you have accused him of doing elsewhere but does say 'he slowed off the racing line' with the view to stop Abraham seeking a tow (a favourite complaint of Stoner - and one he was very consistent about - as were others).

Casey Stoner explains Karel Abraham bust-up | MCN

Karel Abraham vs Casey Stoner - red mist moment at Mugello test

And the video (from Karel's view as stated on the video - the poster is a personal friend) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jki1V9QsmDE

As for the helmet - there is a slightly different situation to that of the infamous media seeking apology of another rider.

In Jerez, there was ample time for the apologist to remove the helmet where in the Abraham v Stoner issue CS was not expecting any approach and was likely to go straight back out - basically, had not had an opportunity to remove the helmet.

Gaz said:

Stoner DOES not admit any brake check as you have accused him of doing elsewhere but does say 'he slowed off the racing line' with the view to stop Abraham seeking a tow (a favourite complaint of Stoner - and one he was very consistent about - as were others).

Casey Stoner explains Karel Abraham bust-up | MCN

Karel Abraham vs Casey Stoner - red mist moment at Mugello test

And the video (from Karel's view as stated on the video - the poster is a personal friend) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jki1V9QsmDE

As for the helmet - there is a slightly different situation to that of the infamous media seeking apology of another rider.

In Jerez, there was ample time for the apologist to remove the helmet where in the Abraham v Stoner issue CS was not expecting any approach and was likely to go straight back out - basically, had not had an opportunity to remove the helmet.

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It is too funny how you guys spin everything. Rossi does not remove his helmet everyone cries. Casey does not remove his helmet, 'oh this is different because he didn't have time and situation different'. Laughable. He had a minute to remove the damn thing. And this right here is the problem of this site and why it bleeds members that never come back. I mean, do you seriously believe yourself???

And I repeat, I've read the brake check somewhere, years ago. In any event, I repeat it is irrelevant to my point.

paparazzo said:

I did not accuse him of brake checks, Karel Abraham did.

There really is no reason to go into detail about this incident. It was brought up to provide some context on Casey's hot temper. If he would get all uptight because some back marker followed close during a practice, kindly explain how he would not have gone nuts being passed 8 times and having to re-pass MM 8 times, in 2 laps, by someone who could lap 1/2 a second faster than him? You are seriously telling me he would not have reacted??You are also free to admit that Casey had a huge chip on his shoulder.

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You mean like he did at Laguna ?

And it is your assumption that MM could have gone faster - that is the one aspect that many seem to overlook - there is no proof as during the race MM did NOT lap that much faster whereas VR once MM had fallen also did not lap faster

I am very prepared to say that CS would not have reacted in thE same manner as VR

As for the chip on the shoulder, CS never thought he was better than the sport but hell yes he had a large chip on his shoulder ............ show me one top level sports person that doesn't have a large chip on their shoulders or even larger ego.

paparazzo said:

It is too funny how you guys spin everything. Rossi does not remove his helmet everyone cries. Casey does not remove his helmet, 'oh this is different because he didn't have time and situation different'. Laughable. He had a minute to remove the damn thing. And this right here is the problem of this site and why it bleeds members that never come back. I mean, do you seriously believe yourself???

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No spinning it at all

Look at the circumstances.

VR had finished the race, gone to his pits but did not remove the helmet.

Stoner does not know that Abraham is coming, and so had not removed his helmet (Abraham to his credit had)

Let me ask you this ......... if you wear glasses and someone is going to hit you - do you stop them and ask if you can remove your glasses - no, you take and do what you can in your current state of dress.

If CS KNEW that Abraham was coming and CS wanted to get involved then hell yes he should have removed the helmet ............. but he did not know as he has stated many times (actually I recall Abraham saying that it was a spur of the moment thing by him as well and that CS was not prepared as CS had to be called to address Abraham)

Gaz said:

You mean like he did at Laguna ?

And it is your assumption that MM could have gone faster - that is the one aspect that many seem to overlook - there is no proof as during the race MM did NOT lap that much faster whereas VR once MM had fallen also did not lap faster

I am very prepared to say that CS would not have reacted in thE same manner as VR

As for the chip on the shoulder, CS never thought he was better than the sport but hell yes he had a large chip on his shoulder ............ show me one top level sports person that doesn't have a large chip on their shoulders or even larger ego.

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See, you really believe this, I have a mountain of snow to sell you. :spin: You know damn well he would have freaked, your big head will not admit it though, and this is fine. :spin:

No it is not my assumption. It is based on his laps the whole weekend and the morning warmup where everyone pretty much lapped to within 1-2/10ths of their morning times in the race....except for Marc. Ask any rider and he will tell you it is really possible to execute all these passes if someone is sandbagging. Your problem is your ego would never admit it in here. So this debate, as all of them are here is.....moot!

paparazzo said:

See, you really believe this, I have a mountain of snow to sell you. :spin: You know damn well he would have freaked, your big head will not admit it though, and this is fine. :spin:

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And you complain when others insult you ............

But I am not sure if there is snow in Queensland so not interested in buying any from you

Just as you believe that CS would have reacted the same, I believe that he would not have ............ you believe what you will, and I shall believe what I shall, each based on our viewings and perhaps own bias

paparazzo said:

No it is not my assumption. It is based on his laps the whole weekend and the morning warmup where everyone pretty much lapped to within 1-2/10ths of their morning times in the race....except for Marc. Ask any rider and he will tell you it is really possible to execute all these passes if someone is sandbagging. Your problem is your ego would never admit it in here. So this debate, as all of them are here is.....moot!

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Nope, it is your assumption

assumption
əˈsʌm(p)ʃ(ə)n/Submit
noun
1.
a thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof.
"they made certain assumptions about the market"
synonyms: supposition, presupposition, presumption, premise, belief, expectation, conjecture, speculation, surmise, guess, theory, hypothesis, postulation, conclusion, deduction, inference, thought, suspicion, notion, impression, fancy; More
2.
the action of taking on power or responsibility.
"the assumption of an active role in regional settlements"
synonyms: acceptance, shouldering, handling, managing, tackling, taking on; More


fact
fakt/Submit
noun
a thing that is known or proved to be true.
"the most commonly known fact about hedgehogs is that they have fleas"
synonyms: reality, actuality, certainty, factuality, certitude; More
information used as evidence or as part of a report or news article.
"even the most inventive journalism peters out without facts, and in this case there were no facts"
synonyms: detail, piece of information, particular, item, specific, element, point, factor, feature, characteristic, respect, ingredient, attribute, circumstance, consideration, aspect, facet; More
used to refer to a particular situation under discussion.
noun: the fact that
"despite the fact that I'm so tired, sleep is elusive"

paparazzo said:

I did not accuse him of brake checks, Karel Abraham did.

There really is no reason to go into detail about this incident. It was brought up to provide some context on Casey's hot temper. If he would get all uptight because some back marker followed close during a practice, kindly explain how he would not have gone nuts being passed 8 times and having to re-pass MM 8 times, in 2 laps, by someone who could lap 1/2 a second faster than him? You are seriously telling me he would not have reacted??You are also free to admit that Casey had a huge chip on his shoulder.

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Exactly my point. It was a claim by Abraham, not by any independent observer of the incident.

So while accusing others of bias you immediately assume Stoner was at fault on Abraham's say-so, and that Stoner had something to apologise for, and somehow see equivalence between Rossi going to Stoner's pit to make a desultory apology for a very definite offence in taking out Stoner with an egregiously stupid move after no error on Stoner's part, seen live on TV by everyone in the world and available to watch on GP.com's video archive right now, and Abraham going to Stoner's pit for reasons which definitely didn't involve an apology by him or Stoner. There was also a history between them, Stoner having unnecessarily if possibly not incorrectly said publicly that Abraham didn't deserve to be in the field and was only there because of his father's money. Whatever transpired, what on earth was Abraham doing either dawdling on the racing line or even more so seeking a tow at a test?

Thank you for the explanation I can always use help in English.

I know it can get frustrating when you have to deal with the odd Vale 'bopper' who can actually paint you into a corner. I understand you are not used to it. You both asked for proof, I've provided you with Casey outbursts that do not have anywhere near context of Sepang, yet you are still unconvinced. That ego....

michaelm said:

Exactly my point. It was a claim by Abraham, not by any independent observer of the incident.

So while accusing others of bias you immediately assume Stoner was at fault on Abraham's say-so, and that Stoner had something to apologise for, and somehow see equivalence between Rossi going to Stoner's pit to make a desultory apology for a very definite offence in taking out Stoner with an egregiously stupid move after no error on Stoner's part, seen live on TV by everyone in the world and available to watch on GP.com's video archive right now, and Abraham going to Stoner's pit for reasons which definitely didn't involve an apology by him or Stoner. There was also a history between them, Stoner having unnecessarily if possibly not incorrectly said publicly that Abraham didn't deserve to be in the field and was only there because of his father's money. Whatever transpired, what on earth was Anrham doing either dawdling on the racing line or even more so seeking a tow at a test?

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Who cares! None of this is relevant. I repeat for the 3rd time, it was to bring context to how Casey goes nuts whenever someone is close to him and how he would react to Sepang which was multiple and multiple and multiple times more aggressive than some back marker following close for a few corners during a test.