Spies to wildcard at Valencia MotoGP

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DRILL @ Oct 5 2009, 05:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You may be right pinkone although I have him a little on the quicker side of JT.
If Ben is ahead of him right out of the gate I think that will tell a bit, especially if they both have the same quality of machine. One thing though you have to hand it to Edwards for doing a great job this year.

Well Spies will have to find the "brick Wall" that most WSBK riders find when they come to MGP.

Baylis is the only one who has actually one ( number intended for reality check ) a GP isn't he?

Spies is coming second in WSBK as we speak, to Nori. Most other riders who have come have done so after pretty convincing Ch'ship wins in WSBK.

I see Spies as an "Appease the Masses" move, driven by Dorna to tap into a huge market ( the US ) that isn't getting any "feel good" from their current riders.

But hey I could be wrong. Lets wait and see.

Personally I think Edwards is better than him. Which kinda brings me to another point, why is Edwards so neglected by his countrymen? The guy is often the next guy pushing the "Fab Four" and has at times toppled them. Sure he hasn't won a GP but he's been close. That said I can't ever seeing him winning one on pure performance, but he may be there and cash in when the others make mistakes.

It seems Spies is to be the man to allow the USer's to let go of Hayden. But frankly I think Spies presence may spur Hayden on. Hayden is the faster of the three but ...... he lacks the ability to be consistently fast in races. To me its a drive thing with Hayden he needs a "cause" to fight for to help him perform.
Eg. Hayden ..... Rossi's teams spare rider ....... that wrankles ..... out he comes on a Honda ( new team ) and proves a point.

So maybe. Spies comes in as the new "token USer" ........ maybe this may wrankle Hayden again. Unfortunately he's not in the position to do much about now as he's on a farm tractor

Spies will be touted as the next big thing from the US, and from WSBK, but I think we need to see how he reacts to his new setting ( MGP ) for a few rounds before we can even get an idea of how he is going.

So next season:

Rank of USers:

Edwards
Hayden ?
Spies. ?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Oct 6 2009, 12:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well Spies will have to find the "brick Wall" that most WSBK riders find when they come to MGP.

Baylis is the only one who has actually one ( number intended for reality check ) a GP isn't he?

Spies is coming second in WSBK as we speak, to Nori. Most other riders who have come have done so after pretty convincing Ch'ship wins in WSBK.

I see Spies as an "Appease the Masses" move, driven by Dorna to tap into a huge market ( the US ) that isn't getting any "feel good" from their current riders.

But hey I could be wrong. Lets wait and see.

Personally I think Edwards is better than him. Which kinda brings me to another point, why is Edwards so neglected by his countrymen? The guy is often the next guy pushing the "Fab Four" and has at times toppled them. Sure he hasn't won a GP but he's been close. That said I can't ever seeing him winning one on pure performance, but he may be there and cash in when the others make mistakes.

It seems Spies is to be the man to allow the USer's to let go of Hayden. But frankly I think Spies presence may spur Hayden on. Hayden is the faster of the three but ...... he lacks the ability to be consistently fast in races. To me its a drive thing with Hayden he needs a "cause" to fight for to help him perform.
Eg. Hayden ..... Rossi's teams spare rider ....... that wrankles ..... out he comes on a Honda ( new team ) and proves a point.

So maybe. Spies comes in as the new "token USer" ........ maybe this may wrankle Hayden again. Unfortunately he's not in the position to do much about now as he's on a farm tractor

Spies will be touted as the next big thing from the US, and from WSBK, but I think we need to see how he reacts to his new setting ( MGP ) for a few rounds before we can even get an idea of how he is going.

So next season:

Rank of USers:

Edwards
Hayden ?
Spies. ?
Not having a go at you barry, but I think the distinction between wsbk and other superbike series is perhaps too subtle to make, with some of the greatest riders who have ever lived including mick doohan coming from national superbike series, admittedly in the 500 era when a superbike riding style was perhaps more suited. More recently, the aforementioned nicky hayden also came from AMA superbikes, although I guess his motogp wins were on a 990.

I think the difference with spies is that he has immediately been at championship level in wsbk, even on tracks he does not know, rather than taking years to reach the top like most who have recently gone to motogp, and also that he was as fast or faster than reputable riders in his wild card rides for suzuki.

I like the guy's style and would like him to do well, but I would agree that it may be too much to hope that he will immediately be at the front, particularly on a satellite bike if the title battle is tight next year and it is not in yamaha's interest for him to take points away from the factory riders.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Oct 6 2009, 10:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Not having a go at you barry, .......... take points away from the factory riders.


See! not one mention of Edwards!!

What is it with the poor guy!!??

He's probably the best SBK rider the US has produced ( and I would argue that in his WSBK days it was a faaaarrrr more competitive environ than Spies is currently experiencing ) ........ and nobody even mentions him!!

There's something about WSBK that doesn't develop great MGP riders ...... perhaps Spies should have come straight from AMA?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Oct 5 2009, 11:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Personally I think Edwards is better than him. Which kinda brings me to another point, why is Edwards so neglected by his countrymen? The guy is often the next guy pushing the "Fab Four" and has at times toppled them. Sure he hasn't won a GP

It seems Spies is to be the man to allow the USer's to let go of Hayden. But frankly I think Spies presence may spur Hayden on. Hayden is the faster of the three but ...... he lacks the ability to be consistently fast in races. To me its a drive thing with Hayden he needs a "cause" to fight for to help him perform.

Unfortunately he's not in the position to do much about now as he's on a farm tractor

Spies will be touted as the next big thing from the US, and from WSBK, but I think we need to see how he reacts to his new setting ( MGP ) for a few rounds before we can even get an idea of how he is going.

So next season:
Rank of USers:

Edwards has a fun personality, but he's vanilla as can be on the race track. He always talks big, but has never won a race (even after years on Rossi's bike). He's only got 11 podiums to Nicky's 26!
People bag on Nicky's championship, but where was Colin in 2006? 7th in the championship or something? Behind Melandri, Pedrosa, an injured Capirossi, and Roberts' satelite Honda.

So, honestly, there's not much to root for, unless you like funny 40 year old guys that don't really want to win. Ben is probably better, because he's younger and DOMINATED on the only SBK bike with less HP than 2008. He's got the will and the brains.

Now, for Nicky. Nicky needs to stop pussyfooting around and crash more. That's right, he needs to find the limit the hard way. 3 days of 70 lap tests are gone. Big torque is gone. Powersliding is gone. He's got to adapt. As far as talent, yeah he's at least as good as Ben. Maybe better. He's just not as smart and creative in his approach to problem solving. Ducati will keep giving if he asks for the right things. Maybe he'll figure it all out at Phillip Island. But if he doesn't 2011 is looking like SBK (which he will CRUSH)

So talent wise:
Nicky
Ben
Colin

Results predictions:
Ben
Colin
Nicky

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clarkjw @ Oct 6 2009, 10:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hayden ........ Maybe he'll figure it all out at Phillip Island.


Actually that will be very interesting to see how he performs at PI on the Duc., because in the past two years on the Honda he was the only guy who looked remotely capable of running with Stoner.

Could be the definitive test for Ducati really, if he doesn't perform up near Casey here ( even just in pure speed, not talking whole race ) then even the Rossifans will have to accept that the Ducati is not the "golden anybodies Ride" they include in their fairytales

But then again perhaps its I who is "dreaming", the reality is that even if Stoner won on a postie bike the Rossifans would claim he had some advantage.

Good on Ben. Bring it!

Would love to see how's Ben doing at Valencia. Now he has to win WSBK this year and proof to the world that WSBK boy is worth a ride in Moto GP.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Oct 5 2009, 06:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well Spies will have to find the "brick Wall" that most WSBK riders find when they come to MGP.

Baylis is the only one who has actually one ( number intended for reality check ) a GP isn't he?

Spies is coming second in WSBK as we speak, to Nori. Most other riders who have come have done so after pretty convincing Ch'ship wins in WSBK.

I see Spies as an "Appease the Masses" move, driven by Dorna to tap into a huge market ( the US ) that isn't getting any "feel good" from their current riders.

But hey I could be wrong. Lets wait and see.

Personally I think Edwards is better than him. Which kinda brings me to another point, why is Edwards so neglected by his countrymen? The guy is often the next guy pushing the "Fab Four" and has at times toppled them. Sure he hasn't won a GP but he's been close. That said I can't ever seeing him winning one on pure performance, but he may be there and cash in when the others make mistakes.

It seems Spies is to be the man to allow the USer's to let go of Hayden. But frankly I think Spies presence may spur Hayden on. Hayden is the faster of the three but ...... he lacks the ability to be consistently fast in races. To me its a drive thing with Hayden he needs a "cause" to fight for to help him perform.
Eg. Hayden ..... Rossi's teams spare rider ....... that wrankles ..... out he comes on a Honda ( new team ) and proves a point.

So maybe. Spies comes in as the new "token USer" ........ maybe this may wrankle Hayden again. Unfortunately he's not in the position to do much about now as he's on a farm tractor

Spies will be touted as the next big thing from the US, and from WSBK, but I think we need to see how he reacts to his new setting ( MGP ) for a few rounds before we can even get an idea of how he is going.

So next season:

Rank of USers:

Edwards
Hayden ?
Spies. ?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Oct 5 2009, 07:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>See! not one mention of Edwards!!

What is it with the poor guy!!??

He's probably the best SBK rider the US has produced ( and I would argue that in his WSBK days it was a faaaarrrr more competitive environ than Spies is currently experiencing ) ........ and nobody even mentions him!!

There's something about WSBK that doesn't develop great MGP riders ...... perhaps Spies should have come straight from AMA?
I usually give your posts more leeway than most members here. You've got this one wrong though and I'm going to respond to each part. Sorry for any confusion and what is certainly going to be a lengthy post.

Bayliss is not the only World Superbiker to win a MotoGP race, Chris Vermeulen has as well. I thought you were an Aussie, Barry. Shame on you.

You're right that in general, riders moving up from WSBK have a pretty solid resume consisting of a championship or a history of challenging for the title. For me, Toseland isn't a comparison. Toseland spent seven years in the premier class accumulating 16 wins and two titles. Tremendous achievements, no doubt. But his rookie season was promising at best, hopeful at worst. The closest comparison I can make is Vermeulen. He took a fourth and second in his two impressive seasons but even he had a year or two of WSS to acclimate himself to the circuits. I've never seen a rider so quick to adapt to circuits and tackle a world championship the way Spies has. Absolutely it's in Yamaha's best interest to appease the US market, but they already have two of the most marketable riders in the world in Rossi and Lorenzo and a favorite amongst informed American fans in Edwards. It makes business sense, but not enough to be a driving force in the decision.

I won't speak for the rest of the Yanks but for me, I watched Hayden grow up. I was at his first AMA Superbike victory at Road America, I watched him become the youngest ever AMA Superbike champion, to MotoGP Rookie of the Year, I was at his first Grand Prix victory at Laguna and I was there to see him become MotoGP World Champion in Valencia. It's not that I don't like Edwards, because I really do. To the point that I hated Troy Bayliss in 2002, that's not easy to do. Edwards is a very talented rider and has the best personality in the paddock and he's busted his ... to get where he is. Edwards jumped to Europe after only one season of AMA Superbike if I remember correctly, probably a big reason why his American fan base is smaller than Hayden's or Spies's.

The 2001/02 seasons in hindsight appear to be far superior in talent than now but if you look at it closely there isn't much of a difference. Sure, Bayliss and Edwards are legends and I don't think Haga (lack of championships) or Spies (lack of time in the series) qualify in that category. However, the other main protagonists in those seasons were as follows: Ruben Xaus, managed to be runner up to Neil Hodgson in the 2003 Michelin/Ducati Cup and make a brief appearance in MotoGP where he produced a single podium. Neil Hodgson, won the 2003 Michelin/Ducati Cup and has won one AMA Superbike race since. Ben Bostrom, after taking six wins in 2001 has only managed two AMA Superbike victories since. Troy Corser, won the title again in 2005 on a strong Suzuki, although did beat Vermeulen. Chili, Laconi, Haga and Toseland were all essentially also rans for various reasons. When you look back at those two years, the talent was not nearly as deep as everyone, myself included, remembers.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clarkjw @ Oct 5 2009, 07:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So talent wise:
Nicky
Ben
Colin

Results predictions:
Ben
Colin
Nicky
After thinking about your talent opinions I'm not sure what I think anymore. Spies impressed me more in AMA than Hayden did. Hayden won on the RC51 when twins were at their peak, Mladin's 750 wasn't quite up to it. Spies beat Mladin straight up. He did it in two seasons compared to Hayden's three and he did it three times on the trot. But you did mention Spies being very intelligent and you're right about that. He has a knack for problem solving. I won't compare him to Rossi but it's a very important trait for top-tier riders and it's something Spies has. I'm not sure Hayden has it. Spies works through issues in the span of an hour session. Hayden works through issues in three-day tests.

In my opinion, Hayden's throttle control is unmatched. No one could slide the 990s as efficiently as him, not even Rossi. Maybe he does have the pure talent but lacks the intellect. It's difficult to say. But I do agree with your results predictions. Spies will impress next season. I just hope Hayden can get back to being up near or in front of Edwards and where I think Spies will be.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Oct 5 2009, 11:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Baylis is the only one who has actually one ( number intended for reality check ) a GP isn't he?

Actually, the only rider to go from WSBK to MotoGP and win a race (from memory) is Vermuelen.

Baylis' win came in a one-off guest ride back in MotoGP after he had returned to WSBK following his MotoGP stint.





Gaz

Very interesting all of this.....Spies has by his own admission accepted the fact that he will be racing just to be near the top five in GP as Colin is currently. I think that Ben is the best hope WSBK has had in getting a rider to make a really successful transition.

That being said he is really up against some serious talent and restrictions in GP at present, and many great SBK riders haven't really made the grade over the years, one that really comes to mind though is mighty Mick, but the stroker was very different, especially the screamer.

It would be nice if we had a premier class which really reflected the worlds best riding from both SBK and 250 style, as the 990 almost did. This way the transition could be made easier from all feeder classes and maybe provide us with a stronger field which in turn should produce better racing, unlike that of the last 4-5 MotoGP rounds......

Austin and Gaz .... both good points.


Vermulen ..... D'oh ........ I think he's my Aussie version of Edwards, I tend to forget about him

But hey with him going back to WSBK I think things are looking up for him.

But I think it just emphasizes how it has been difficult to go from WSBK to MGP and perform at the top.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Oct 6 2009, 06:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But I think it just emphasizes how it has been difficult to go from WSBK to MGP and perform at the top.

Totally agree and why for me Spies is up against it somewhat, but as an initial 'doubter' of his I actually feel that he is the most gifter rider to enter from WSBK in many, many a year.





Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clarkjw @ Oct 6 2009, 07:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>... there's not much to root for, unless you like funny 40 year old guys that don't really want to win.
Well, I really like Colie and find the "don't really want to win" statement ignorantly hilarious...

Spies will straight up embarrass Hayden next year. It is not my opinion, it is just the facts of life. Hayden needs to change is riding style if he wants to be competitive.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Noodlerizer @ Oct 6 2009, 03:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Spies will straight up embarrass Hayden next year. It is not my opinion, it is just the facts of life. Hayden needs to change is riding style if he wants to be competitive.

Sad but true. I'd been hoping that Ducati would cut Hayden loose so
he'd have a chance to be on anything other than the career-killer.
Much as I admire him, I think Mr. Nice-Guy is in for a dismal year
of being back behind Spies and Simoncelli. Another season with
Ducati is good money after bad. I think he's hit the wall development-wise.