Spies says Stoner most talented ever

michaelm said:

This is where I start to see why the "neobopper" tag arose barry.



It is fairly close to impossible to ride better than rossi did in 2008, a year in which he made about 1.5 race riding errors, and only 1.0 errors which cost him, when he put the yamaha down with cold tyres early in a race, at assen I think. That is why laguna seca was so crucial, and his overall performance in that race was insanely brilliant, whether or not you and I have a different view than rossi's fans concerning a particular incident. Stoner didn't contend in 2009 not because the bike was no good, but because his health didn't allow him to, and that is no one's problem but his own.



I actually disagree with povol as well. I see doohan's and rossi's 5 year consecutive runs as being similar, both could actually only beat the opposition that turned up to race them, and it is difficult to see how they could have done much more in those years. The same applies to stoner's 2007 and 2011 championships, and lorenzo's 2010 championship as well of course.

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Pretty well spot on as usual Mick.....except I would prefer to qualify his Laguna performance as tactically brilliant rather than brilliant because of his riding skills in that race....his riding IMO was borderline legal at times during that race - so I would be loathe to elevate his performance beyond "adequate" in that particular criteria.

Mr Squiggle said:

Pretty well spot on as usual Mick.....except I would prefer to qualify his Laguna performance as tactically brilliant rather than brilliant because of his riding skills in that race....his riding IMO was borderline legal at times during that race - so I would be loathe to elevate his performance beyond "adequate" in that particular criteria.

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I mostly disagree with you on that as well. Setting up the bike just right for every point on the track to exploit stoner's (or as it would now appear his bike's) weaknesses as rossi and jb apparently painstakingly did overnight, then being able to execute by actually managing to put the bike in just the right position to block stoner successfully for so many laps required amazing skill, and no small amount of skill was involved in keeping the bike upright when he famously did go off track at the corkscrew.



Rossi's success in the Laguna seca race was also of course dependent on stoner choosing on 2 occasions not to collide with rossi , the first potential collision involving no error of his, and having the skill to execute his choices, when it would have been in his tactical and strategic interest not to avoid the collisions.



Address for an interesting (to me anyway) view re the 2008 corkscrew incident with which I concur.

http://www.gpone.com/index.php/201105103653/Ciabatti-would-have -penalized-Rossi.html

michaelm said:

I mostly disagree with you on that as well. Setting up the bike just right for every point on the track to exploit stoner's (or as it would now appear his bike's) weaknesses as rossi and jb apparently painstakingly did overnight, then being able to execute by actually managing to put the bike in just the right position to block stoner successfully for so many laps required amazing skill, and no small amount of skill was involved in keeping the bike upright when he famously did go off track at the corkscrew.



Rossi's success in the Laguna seca race was also of course dependent on stoner choosing on 2 occasions not to collide with rossi , the first potential collision involving no error of his, and having the skill to execute his choices, when it would have been in his tactical and strategic interest not to avoid the collisions.



Address for an interesting (to me anyway) view re the 2008 corkscrew incident with which I concur.

http://www.gpone.com/index.php/201105103653/Ciabatti-would-have -penalized-Rossi.html

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I think you made my point for me....his race strategy (tactics) were brilliantly executed. They had a plan and executed it flawlessly....but I fail to see how block passes and brake checks constitute "amazing skill".....and his "amazing skill" was responsible for him spearing off-track in the first place and nearly taking both riders down was it not?



If not for Stoners "amazing skill" he would have collided with Rossi as you suggest....and I dont believe for one second Stoner would have even contemplated running into Rossi because it was "in his tactical and strategic interest not to avoid the collisions". I think this was the reason Stoner was pretty unhappy after the race as he had been exemplary in his on track behaviour. If he had have collided with Rossi who do you think would have been apportioned 100% of the blame by the unwashed masses? Stoner has always been the target of unfair criticism - if he hit Rossi you can be sure who would have been labelled the "innocent victim".



I find it amusing that Rossis fans point to this race as proof of his brilliance as I can think of many more races where he demonstrated better his "amazing skills" along with far greater racecraft.



And lastly thanks for the link....as it demonstrates that not only I think his riding was questionable.

michaelm said:

Address for an interesting (to me anyway) view re the 2008 corkscrew incident with which I concur.

http://www.gpone.com/index.php/201105103653/Ciabatti-would-have -penalized-Rossi.html

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That was deep.

Jumkie said:

That was deep.

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I think it is approximately correct. Stoner had some reason to be annoyed, which is all I have ever argued. I thought max getting a ride through was totally ridiculous, btw, and thought this while I was watching it live.



As with you I suspect, the appeal of all this is waning. My love of arguing is a major reason for being involved, and fanatical as I am as a fan others with whom I largely agree as well as others with whom I largely disagree would seem to take it far more seriously than I do.



If stoner's and rossi's situations do not reverse again, it will not be because rossi was never any good and his career was a fraud, but significantly because he finally late in his career made a poor choice.

double

Oooft, must apologise for my earlier posts, this is what happens when you return home after a night out and find the PC still on...



Anyway, good posts from Squiggle and Mic as usual. Baz, 2008 was indeed a really good year for Rossi. My thoughts on Luguna are; it was an amazing performance from Rossi, for the tactical prep alone, i think the corkscrew incident was borderline, he was lucky to not take Stoner out but if we're talking about potentially dodgy moves, Stoner made 1 on Rossi on the outside on the way up to the corkscrew, i thought it was bloody brilliant move by Casey similar to the move he made on Jorge last year but it was pretty close and he did make contact.



Pov, you say that Rossi didn't have a Pedrosa, let alone a Jorge or Casey to contend with. I agree that he didnt have a Jorge or Casey to deal with but i think Pedrosa and Sete can be compared, Sete ran Rossi consistently closer than Pedrosa has ran any of the top guys. Don't get me wrong, Pedrosa has way more outright speed but he's not consistently up there.

100% agree

spooky said:

Oooft, must apologise for my earlier posts, this is what happens when you return home after a night out and find the PC still on...



Anyway, good posts from Squiggle and Mic as usual. Baz, 2008 was indeed a really good year for Rossi. My thoughts on Luguna are; it was an amazing performance from Rossi, for the tactical prep alone, i think the corkscrew incident was borderline, he was lucky to not take Stoner out but if we're talking about potentially dodgy moves, Stoner made 1 on Rossi on the outside on the way up to the corkscrew, i thought it was bloody brilliant move by Casey similar to the move he made on Jorge last year but it was pretty close and he did make contact.



Pov, you say that Rossi didn't have a Pedrosa, let alone a Jorge or Casey to contend with. I agree that he didnt have a Jorge or Casey to deal with but i think Pedrosa and Sete can be compared, Sete ran Rossi consistently closer than Pedrosa has ran any of the top guys. Don't get me wrong, Pedrosa has way more outright speed but he's not consistently up there.

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After watching one M Biaggi carve up the young wsbk field at 40 years of age on the weekend its ridiculously bias to not think he was not serious competition on a 500 and a 990.

Talpa said:

After watching one M Biaggi carve up the young wsbk field at 40 years of age on the weekend its ridiculously bias to not think he was not serious competition on a 500 and a 990.

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But Biaggi was 7 years older than Rossi at the time Talpa, just like Rossi is 7 years older than Stoner! So have we found a new excuse that not even Biaggi used, poor Rossi is too old?



The older Doohan got the better his winning record became. It was not becuase his talent increased as he got older, it was because Gardner, Lawson, Rainey and Schwantz retired in quick succession. I love Doohan but there's little doubt in my mind had Rainey and Schwantz been there throughout Doohan would not have won 5 straight.

spooky said:

Pov, you say that Rossi didn't have a Pedrosa, let alone a Jorge or Casey to contend with. I agree that he didnt have a Jorge or Casey to deal with but i think Pedrosa and Sete can be compared, Sete ran Rossi consistently closer than Pedrosa has ran any of the top guys. Don't get me wrong, Pedrosa has way more outright speed but he's not consistently up there.

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No. Sete was second rate for many years. Pedro in another time is a multi w/c. The person I really missed badly was Kato, RIP. He was developing so well. You know it took years and at some tracks Pedro still couldnt better Kato's 250cc times.

Talpa said:

After watching one M Biaggi carve up the young wsbk field at 40 years of age on the weekend its ridiculously bias to not think he was not serious competition on a 500 and a 990.

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Valentino beat everyone who turned up to race him, mostly very easily, as did doohan and there is nothing more either could have done.



Biaggi was good, but checa's record for many of his years in motogp doesn't bear close scrutiny. The fact that he and biaggi can carve up the wsbk field at 40 imo shows that wsbk is well below motogp in talent, and that some bikes are more equal than others under the wsbk equalisation rules.

I think a little from column A and a little from column B

povol said:

Worth noting that Biaggi and Checa both had faster race lap times than last years Ducati GP bike. Im not sure if that is a testament to how good these two Superbikes are, or how bad the Duc GP bike is

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Maybe it has something to do with the effort of the riders.

michaelm said:

My love of arguing is a major reason for being involved, and fanatical as I am as a fan others with whom I largely agree as well as others with whom I largely disagree would seem to take it far more seriously than I do.

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You sir are one of few reasons why this forum is still relevant.

only an imbicile would surmise that this current crop of riders is "more talented" than previous generations. i'm guessing the goal there would be to downplay the relevancy of the titles rossi won. give it up. what more did you want rossi to do? travel to other planets and race THEIR best? did he not compete with what THIS world had to offer? was there another, even more prestigious racing series that he didn't know about where even more talented riders competed? hell no! he won against the best many times over so drop this stupidity about "weaker competition". every motogp generation represents the best talent of their time, that's how they got there to begin with, by being the best. comparing one gen to another is a stupid excercise.

THE_FREAKY said:

only an imbicile would surmise that this current crop of riders is "more talented" than previous generations. i'm guessing the goal there would be to downplay the relevancy of the titles rossi won. give it up. what more did you want rossi to do? travel to other planets and race THEIR best? did he not compete with what THIS world had to offer? was there another, even more prestigious racing series that he didn't know about where even more talented riders competed? hell no! he won against the best many times over so drop this stupidity about "weaker competition". every motogp generation represents the best talent of their time, that's how they got there to begin with, by being the best. comparing one gen to another is a stupid excercise.

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Ok so what you are saying is that Rossi is the new Checa (7th place 03 & 04), Sete (7th place 05) and Edwards (7th place 06)? Fair enough, but I wouldn't have made that call as I think he is a little better. We don't need to say who the new Rossi is do we?