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Spies says Stoner most talented ever

birdman said:
So how did a guy who couldn't beg, borrow or steal a title in those same classes manage to end up with 26.9% more wins in the top class of motogp against the 9 times w/c? Forget everything about age, desire, injury etc just strict numbers. 7 more wins, what's the explanation, assuming it's not talent?
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THE_FREAKY said:
so numbers is your game, i guess? i'll amuse you. 2006-2011. rossi's started 101 races to stoner's 100. stoner's won 33 to rossi's 26. stoner has 59 podiums to rossi's 58. stoners's accumulated 1561 championship points in those 6 years to rossi's 1539. a grand total of 22 MORE POINTS IN 6 SEASONS. stoner won 2 titles, finished 2nd once, two 4th places and an 8th. rossi won 2 titles, finished 2nd once, two 3rd places, and a 7th. i like rossi's numbers there, thank you. that's not even considering the fact that between 1996-2000, while stoner was cleaning house in his homeland, rossi was winning the 125cc and 250cc titles and the fact that while stoner couldn't beg, borrow, or steal a title in those same classes in 2001-2005 (you mean he wasn't an alien back then?), rossi was winning the premier class titles in all 5 of those years! forget everything about age, desire, injury, etc. and i'd say the strict numbers (2006-2011) don't back up your argument very well. from this point on, however, everything points to stoner dominating the class for a long time. then the numbers game will definitely favour stoner. but, as i see it, it's the way of the world: out with the old, in with the new...
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How good a rider is at his peak, and longevity at that peak are what are important imo. Rossi has everyone covered except ago on the second, and his peak was higher than ago's in any case, also imo. It is very likely he will continue to have stoner covered for at least longevity.



I am doubtless a philistine, but I have never rated the junior class titles as highly as some do, from well before stoner, particularly because some of the all time greats who were the riders of my youth never contested those classes. Max biaggi and dani pedrosa have better 125/250 class records than rossi or stoner in any case.



Particularly in comparing stoner and pedrosa, stoner has an extreme riding style which took longer to perfect, but at this stage looks to be his superior. In other sports like tennis for instance they don't seem to count junior wimbledon titles with the senior titles, and I have never heard it said that an olympic gold medal in the 100 metre freestyle is devalued by the guy coming second having beaten the winner in the breaststroke in the under 15s.
 
spooky said:
Errr, noones denying that Stoner hasn't been better since 2006, what us Rossi fans dont get though is some of the Stoner fans think that Rossi is ..... and that he's not even slightly comparable to Stoner, which is incredibly short sighted. What the Stoner fans cant/wont see is Stoner is so good purely because he's taken the fight to Rossi. Rossi has been the benchmark for over 10years, like it or lump it.
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I certainly dont think Rossi is ..... He is without a doubt, one of the best motorcycle racers who ever walked the planet. What i do think, is that is his beyond reproach title of the greatest of all time, has come into question. I also feel that when faced with true hard numbers, Rossi and a large segment of his fans have the tendency to fall back on numbers that are not relevant to the debate at hand. I am first and foremost a Nicky Hayden fan, but i dont make excuses for him. His numbers dont lie ,just like Stoners numbers dont lie. I personally feel that Spies is probably right, we are witnessing the most talented road racer to date. That doesnt make him the GOAT, just like Rossi's inflated numbers dont make him the GOAT. Rossi is the undeniable king as the best thing that ever happened to Moto GP. Stoner, Lorenzo, and Pedrosa should all thank him,and kiss the ring for what he did in bringing the sport to the point to where they could make 5-10 million a year. That is Rossi's legacy, a phenom who could ride the wheels off a motorcycle, and somehow caught lightning in a bottle with silly antics that captured the imagination of a lot of folks. For decades bike racers were these rough, stoic,warrior figures who were lined up on a battlefield ready to get it on, then all of a sudden some dude comes dancing across the battlefield in a pink tutu killing everything in sight
 
Let me break it down for you guys.



Rossi and Stoner are two of the fastest guys to have ever swung thier leg over a GP bike. Rossi dominated for years, stoner likely will dominate for years to come.



Neither of thier achievments take away from the other's achievements.
 
spooky said:
Errr, noones denying that Stoner hasn't been better since 2006, what us Rossi fans dont get though is some of the Stoner fans think that Rossi is ..... and that he's not even slightly comparable to Stoner, which is incredibly short sighted. What the Stoner fans cant/wont see is Stoner is so good purely because he's taken the fight to Rossi. Rossi has been the benchmark for over 10years, like it or lump it.
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I agree its not very clever to say Rossi is ....., because then it only takes a mediocre rider to beat him. Its better to say Rossi is one of the all time greats, every time he rides. The posts I respond to are the ones that keep bringing up the "but look at 125 or 250 or pre 2006" record as evidence that Rossi would have been untouchable to even the present day level of competition if only he was younger. In 2007 Rossi was 28. Stoner was 21.
 
povol said:
I certainly dont think Rossi is ..... He is without a doubt, one of the best motorcycle racers who ever walked the planet. What i do think, is that is his beyond reproach title of the greatest of all time, has come into question. I also feel that when faced with true hard numbers, Rossi and a large segment of his fans have the tendency to fall back on numbers that are not relevant to the debate at hand. I am first and foremost a Nicky Hayden fan, but i dont make excuses for him. His numbers dont lie ,just like Stoners numbers dont lie. I personally feel that Spies is probably right, we are witnessing the most talented road racer to date. That doesnt make him the GOAT, just like Rossi's inflated numbers dont make him the GOAT. Rossi is the undeniable king as the best thing that ever happened to Moto GP. Stoner, Lorenzo, and Pedrosa should all thank him,and kiss the ring for what he did in bringing the sport to the point to where they could make 5-10 million a year. That is Rossi's legacy, a phenom who could ride the wheels off a motorcycle, and somehow caught lightning in a bottle with silly antics that captured the imagination of a lot of folks. For decades bike racers were these rough, stoic,warrior figures who were lined up on a battlefield ready to get it on, then all of a sudden some dude comes dancing across the battlefield in a pink tutu killing everything in sight
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I agree, great post Pov
 
povol said:
I certainly dont think Rossi is ..... He is without a doubt, one of the best motorcycle racers who ever walked the planet. What i do think, is that is his beyond reproach title of the greatest of all time, has come into question. I also feel that when faced with true hard numbers, Rossi and a large segment of his fans have the tendency to fall back on numbers that are not relevant to the debate at hand. I am first and foremost a Nicky Hayden fan, but i dont make excuses for him. His numbers dont lie ,just like Stoners numbers dont lie. I personally feel that Spies is probably right, we are witnessing the most talented road racer to date. That doesnt make him the GOAT, just like Rossi's inflated numbers dont make him the GOAT. Rossi is the undeniable king as the best thing that ever happened to Moto GP. Stoner, Lorenzo, and Pedrosa should all thank him,and kiss the ring for what he did in bringing the sport to the point to where they could make 5-10 million a year. That is Rossi's legacy, a phenom who could ride the wheels off a motorcycle, and somehow caught lightning in a bottle with silly antics that captured the imagination of a lot of folks. For decades bike racers were these rough, stoic,warrior figures who were lined up on a battlefield ready to get it on, then all of a sudden some dude comes dancing across the battlefield in a pink tutu killing everything in sight
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Exactly right. For good or ill, both are likely to be linked now, and if one is no good then neither is the other.



Rossi actually is a stoic warrior figure in race mode, his almost unique trait (perhaps shared to an extent by sheene) is the ability to immediately switch to vaudeville once the race is over. Stoner on the other hand whilst also a stoic warrior and ice cool in race mode reacts very differently to the pressure being released and is prone to blowing off steam.



Rossi is obviously a really smart guy and his ability to be witty both in his native tongue and in other languages is truly impressive. His comments are often barbed but are also not meant to be taken completely seriously; however stoner who even I would not claim has a great sense of humour takes them as flat insults, even though the fine art of the sledge is such an australian tradition. I think there was misunderstanding on valentino's part as well, I think he initially respected him as an opponent on track more than his predecessors and thought he could similarly joust with him off track.
 
povol said:
I certainly dont think Rossi is ..... He is without a doubt, one of the best motorcycle racers who ever walked the planet. What i do think, is that is his beyond reproach title of the greatest of all time, has come into question. I also feel that when faced with true hard numbers, Rossi and a large segment of his fans have the tendency to fall back on numbers that are not relevant to the debate at hand. I am first and foremost a Nicky Hayden fan, but i dont make excuses for him. His numbers dont lie ,just like Stoners numbers dont lie. I personally feel that Spies is probably right, we are witnessing the most talented road racer to date. That doesnt make him the GOAT, just like Rossi's inflated numbers dont make him the GOAT. Rossi is the undeniable king as the best thing that ever happened to Moto GP. Stoner, Lorenzo, and Pedrosa should all thank him,and kiss the ring for what he did in bringing the sport to the point to where they could make 5-10 million a year. That is Rossi's legacy, a phenom who could ride the wheels off a motorcycle, and somehow caught lightning in a bottle with silly antics that captured the imagination of a lot of folks. For decades bike racers were these rough, stoic,warrior figures who were lined up on a battlefield ready to get it on, then all of a sudden some dude comes dancing across the battlefield in a pink tutu killing everything in sight
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Shhhh ........ don't tell the boppers ( I have an image to uphold! ), but I agree with you.





Except the pink tutu bit!! ......... it was a yellow tutu
<
<
 
THE_FREAKY said:
so numbers is your game, i guess? i'll amuse you. 2006-2011. rossi's started 101 races to stoner's 100. stoner's won 33 to rossi's 26. stoner has 59 podiums to rossi's 58. stoners's accumulated 1561 championship points in those 6 years to rossi's 1539. a grand total of 22 MORE POINTS IN 6 SEASONS. stoner won 2 titles, finished 2nd once, two 4th places and an 8th. rossi won 2 titles, finished 2nd once, two 3rd places, and a 7th. i like rossi's numbers there, thank you. that's not even considering the fact that between 1996-2000, while stoner was cleaning house in his homeland, rossi was winning the 125cc and 250cc titles and the fact that while stoner couldn't beg, borrow, or steal a title in those same classes in 2001-2005 (you mean he wasn't an alien back then?), rossi was winning the premier class titles in all 5 of those years! forget everything about age, desire, injury, etc. and i'd say the strict numbers (2006-2011) don't back up your argument very well. from this point on, however, everything points to stoner dominating the class for a long time. then the numbers game will definitely favour stoner. but, as i see it, it's the way of the world: out with the old, in with the new...
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I fail to see how your stats about Rossi pre 2007 make Spies comments about Stoner any less valid....but thanks for the history lesson.
 
Aussie and USA riders are at a disadvantage to those in europe, I would value Ben's AMA plates more than a 125 or 250 world title.



they spend there early years in local comps and it means nothing on the world stage later on, where european riders the local comp is the GP and it counts



125 and 250 should be called european cup , 1000's motoGP world championship
 
povol said:
I certainly dont think Rossi is ..... He is without a doubt, one of the best motorcycle racers who ever walked the planet. What i do think, is that is his beyond reproach title of the greatest of all time, has come into question. I also feel that when faced with true hard numbers, Rossi and a large segment of his fans have the tendency to fall back on numbers that are not relevant to the debate at hand. I am first and foremost a Nicky Hayden fan, but i dont make excuses for him. His numbers dont lie ,just like Stoners numbers dont lie. I personally feel that Spies is probably right, we are witnessing the most talented road racer to date. That doesnt make him the GOAT, just like Rossi's inflated numbers dont make him the GOAT. Rossi is the undeniable king as the best thing that ever happened to Moto GP. Stoner, Lorenzo, and Pedrosa should all thank him,and kiss the ring for what he did in bringing the sport to the point to where they could make 5-10 million a year. That is Rossi's legacy, a phenom who could ride the wheels off a motorcycle, and somehow caught lightning in a bottle with silly antics that captured the imagination of a lot of folks. For decades bike racers were these rough, stoic,warrior figures who were lined up on a battlefield ready to get it on, then all of a sudden some dude comes dancing across the battlefield in a pink tutu killing everything in sight
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As ever succinct and correct. I just wish I could splice Jumkies genes pertinent to politics and awareness of modern social issues into your genome.........................but then that would be too perfect and you would be unbearable!
<
 
Hey all. I just noticed something on motoGP stat search.

Stoner is the only rider to regain the championship after a three year loss.

This is clearly Rossi's plan to do the same. Lose this year. Win next year.
 
SlartyBartFast said:
Hey all. I just noticed something on motoGP stat search.

Stoner is the only rider to regain the championship after a three year loss.

This is clearly Rossi's plan to do the same. Lose this year. Win next year.
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Nah, that would just tie Stoner, he will lose this year and next, then win the title so the record will be his alone.
 
povol said:
Doesnt matter, he is Rossi. Nothing is inconceivable.
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Except a baby/progeny/child ........ it would seem ......







Its rare I do this but I hsd to make a joke at Rossi's expense ............





In reality, I'm a bit bummed the Marwa thing didn't work out ............ she was OK, snd Rossi needs a young on ........ all part of life's progression ...
 
Thought I'd post this here for any Pie Man fans... Phone, tab, and desktop wallpapers.
 

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povol said:
Its always pure speculation as to who is the greatest of all time in any sport. Casey has earned a lot of respect for his talents since Rossi struggled so mightily on the Ducati.On the flip side Rossi's legacy has suffered a bit because of said struggles. All we heard for years was that Rossi could win on anything.A Kawasaki, a Suzuki, a Vespa, even a peddle bike. That rep has taken a hit, and Stoners has furthered his rep as being fast on anything. There is no proof as to who is best, never will be.Not even race wins. Rossi will never catch Agostini in wins, but just about anyone with any sense would rate Rossi and a handful of others higher than Ago. Numbers are good place to start, but they dont tell the entire story
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Rossi had one bad year and everybody forgets his greatness. If Rossi was on that Honda last year he would have never lost a race. Rossi has ridden almost every manufacture and won and he will win the championship this year on a Ducati.
 

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