so what wrong with the other ducati's???

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Mar 26 2008, 07:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hmmm... Ok I offer my 5 cents here, but do not quote me on this
Stoner enters the corner on the front brakes, then he shifts the pressure on the rear brake as he leans... Meanwhile he caresses the clutch to keep the engine revving higher than what the gear he's in would allow. This allows the power to increase, while the excess torque is absorbed by the engaged rear brake. By doing so the rear end is 'charged' with a reserve of torque which loads like a compressing spring.

Yes thats a good way of putting it .... seems odd to be seeing someone doing it on such a beast of a bike .... but nonetheless he is a "cut above the rest" at the moment .... so this may be one of the tools we see him using.

Also I could see it being a great way of getting the most out of a TC'd bike ..... its kinda like the rider is saying "ok TC I know you can cope with 60HP" ..... "well heres a handfull of 200HP .... hows them beans!!??" ....

It does explain why he seems to rocket out of corners like nobody else and seems to be fighting it whilst doing so.

In the end I guess it comes down to just how bad does a rider want the win ..... in that respect I see Stoner as looking like those old scholl guys who would employ such techniques to get everything out of underpowered equipment. When I say underpowered .... don't forget every rider wants more ...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Mar 25 2008, 09:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>My take is simply that at Mugello 2007 Stoner was pushed beyond his limit by the speed of Rossi and Pedrosa that day, so he finished his tyres before the end. Barros, who does not ride Stoner's style, had his tyres in a better condition at the end and so he passed Stoner pipping him for the podium. Btw, Ducati never forgave Barros for this
I was perhaps being obtuse, what I was asking was if stoner and barros made the same tyre choice. If so, I think your hypothesis is pretty well proven.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Mar 26 2008, 02:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Just like your truths regarding lean angle and tire pressure, what applys to off road does not nesesarily apply to road surface.

I have never mentioned any relationship between tyre pressure and lean angle!! seems this could be another of your misinterpretations .... or BS.

I said he picks the bike upright , at times, and rockets out of corners ... thats all I said, and you seem to want to convince me otherwise .... oddly these further posts by others seemed to have confirmed that is an observable case

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 26 2008, 03:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I have never mentioned any relationship between tyre pressure and lean angle!! seems this could be another of your misinterpretations .... or BS.
Of course you were. First you wrote this:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Nothing sensational about it .... its pretty common practice .... especially to a dirt rider ..... when it rains you just avoid leaning the bike .... where's the sensation?? Same on a road surface too when the grip needs to be optimised.
I assumed you thought raising the bike means extra grip on dry road surface, but it doesn't.
Even on wet all it does is improve the balance in case of a slide and minimize the contact patch.
I replyed and added information about tire pressure in rain and all I got was this:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>hahaha well let me know how that goes then won't you
So you leave the guess work to me. I only had to assume you commented on what I wrote.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>I said he picks the bike upright , at times, and rockets out of corners ... thats all I said, and you seem to want to convince me otherwise .... oddly these further posts by others seemed to have confirmed that is an observable case
Well, if you mean that he do what every one else are doing in smaller or lesser degree that's not really any secret. I asumed you ment something different.
Still, if he had even a marginally better drive out of the corner that should show up as a better top speed, unless Melandri and the Alice bikes has some secret engine parts of course.
Also, the Eurosport commentators mentioned some special measurements done at Quatar where those confirmed that the Ducatis had a much better acceleration at the beginning of the straight. I've tried to find details on this but found nothing. It does make sense though as what I see is a similar top speed on all the ducatis and if you look again you might see what most others see: the gap opens up at first at the very end of the turn and the next meteres on the straight. That's incidently where Casey and the other Ducati riders can use the full grunt and power of the Ducati.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Mar 26 2008, 08:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Of course you were. First you wrote this:

I assumed you thought raising the bike means extra grip on dry road surface, but it doesn't.
Even on wet all it does is improve the balance in case of a slide and minimize the contact patch.
I replyed and added information about tire pressure in rain and all I got was this:

So you leave the guess work to me. I only had to assume you commented on what I wrote.


Well, if you mean that he do what every one else are doing in smaller or lesser degree that's not really any secret. I asumed you ment something different.
Still, if he had even a marginally better drive out of the corner that should show up as a better top speed, unless Melandri and the Alice bikes has some secret engine parts of course.
Also, the Eurosport commentators mentioned some special measurements done at Quatar where those confirmed that the Ducatis had a much better acceleration at the beginning of the straight. I've tried to find details on this but found nothing. It does make sense though as what I see is a similar top speed on all the ducatis and if you look again you might see what most others see: the gap opens up at first at the very end of the turn and the next meteres on the straight. That's incidently where Casey and the other Ducati riders can use the full grunt and power of the Ducati.

Well not one mention of pressure .....

Now on the not leaning a boke when its slippery ...... try it ...... hang your body out instead.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 26 2008, 01:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well I myself still do it on my dirt bike ( Ktm520 ) when I get lazy ( or want more "rocketness" in a situation ), and I have done it at moments on my old RG250 though it was in "street trim" it does work but I was never in that much of a hurry. Its just a tool to get more out of anything ... irrespective of the size. I don't think the fact that he has 230HP on tap comes into it really .... because one inalienable fact I observed in any race I ever had was ... "irrespective of how much power I have ... right now I need more than that guy!"

The slipper clutch wouldn't even be affected. Slippers are on a ratchet/paul system that ensures they work only for deceration. 125 and even 250 guys are at it all the time coming out of real slow stuff. the only reason the bigger bikes don't seem to do it is we haven't got any turns slow enough for those guys to need it, they've got so much torque, but who really knows? maybe they do it a little now and then. i did a lot in the wet on a bigger bike like a kind of analogue tc coming out of a very slow hairpin till i could get the thing picked up. the slipper or tc has nothing to do with it. it's a bit like superstock and sport production guys starting off the line in 2nd gear and slipping the clutch for longer, mimicking the tall 1st gear in a racebox, get's you a better start than starting 1st though it will destroy clutches. but it's racing so .... it.

double post my bad

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Mar 26 2008, 03:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I was perhaps being obtuse, what I was asking was if stoner and barros made the same tyre choice. If so, I think your hypothesis is pretty well proven.

Sorry I do not remember that information, assuming it was known. Stoner is said to use very hard tyres as standard, he needs them like that the way he rides (just like Rossi btw). Why his tyres did not last as long as Barros' at Mugello might have depended on riding styles, setup etc. rather than Barros having chosen even harder tyres than him, - probably.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 26 2008, 10:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well not one mention of pressure .....
You still haven't read the post:
http://www.powerslide.net/forum/so-what-wr...809#entry117809

Thats wher I mention pressure and you comment on that and other things in a cryptic way.
I can only assume you were commenting tire pressure as well as the rest.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Now on the not leaning a boke when its slippery ...... try it ...... hang your body out instead.
I have no intention, as I said before I lean in to get
a. a better balance in case of a slide
b. better grip through smaller contact patch

On dry on the other hand I sometimes don't lean in as I wan't to maximize the grip by using the larger contact patch on the side of the tires rolling surface. Usually in corners where you don't use maximum lean angle.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Mar 26 2008, 01:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Consider this:
If stoner are so much faster in the corner why are melandri faster on the straight on Quatar?
On a side note, we've seen Rossi and Stoner fithting it out in a long curve and Rossi were at least as fast as in 90% of the turn, only when the bike are almost straight up the Ducati take off.

You don't mention TC, fair enough, but how do you make that existing TC fit into a handeling as described? Wouldn't that totally mess up the TC

"The compressed torque explodes and makes the frame 'squirm' " I don't belive for a second that exploding torque on a +200bhp bike result in anything like a 'squirm'. Massive high side on the other hand...

Consider that even a production 1000cc today produce so much power that it takes some serious throttle control not to spin out the rear to a full blown high side when you go fast. To control the amount of power from a GP bike with the rear brake, clutch and throttle while you have to negotiate slids, bumps, head shake, wobble... is something a computer might be able to do in the not so far future but a human... sorry I don't by that.

I do not claim it's easy at all, and of course TC will have a part in it to avoid the highside. I do not even claim it is true (how can I really know... this is why I asked not to be quoted too much on this )
I am just looking for an explanation to what Stoner does, other than 'he is the son of JC'
If you have a better one...

I do not think the top speed (very small) difference between Stoner and Melandri on the straights is significant.

Rossi... Yes, Rossi knows how to ride a MotoGP bike both euro style (mastery of the front end) and dirt-track style (mastery of the rear) - it is what has made him a 7-times world champion. Stoner also is a master of both styles. But in 2007 Rossi's bike and tyres did not allow him to cope with Stoner. This year the bike is faster and more thermically efficient but he still has to master the Bridgestones.

We'll see. My opinion is that Rossi and Hayden could ride the Ducati the way Stoner does.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (skid @ Mar 26 2008, 08:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>it will destroy clutches. but it's racing so .... it.

I had so much trouble convincing my son's, then young, mate, that he wasn't on the same sort of budget that the factory guys were on ( informing him that they get new clutch plates each round ) ..... until he no longer had a clutch .... nor an ample purse to replace the plates

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Mar 26 2008, 11:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I do not claim it's easy at all, and of course TC will have a part in it to avoid the highside. I do not even claim it is true (how can I really know... this is why I asked not to be quoted too much on this )
I am just looking for an explanation to what Stoner does, other than 'he is the son of JC'
If you have a better one...
To me it sounds like a huge mess, reving up the engine leaned over and having TC limiting the power at the same time. Even worse so if the TC use the gear/rpm as an indicator of speed and settnig of limits.
To me it looks like Stoner is able to carry more speed through the conrners compared to the rest of the Ducati riders. All the way from braking point to exit he has found ways to carry more speed, but least of that is on the exit, simply because even the 800 is a monster where you have more power than you need 90% of the time. 250 style or not you shoot out of corner pretty quick either way. I suspect his braking and corner entry are among his strongest points together with some high speed corners and difficult chicanes where he has the balls to pin the throttle where the others don't.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>I do not think the top speed (very small) difference between Stoner and Melandri on the straights is significant.
I agree but then neither should there be much difference at the exit of the corners. After all they bring that speed with them over the straight.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Rossi... Yes, Rossi knows how to ride a MotoGP bike both euro style (mastery of the front end) and dirt-track style (mastery of the rear) - it is what has made him a 7-times world champion. Stoner also is a master of both styles. But in 2007 Rossi's bike and tyres did not allow him to cope with Stoner. This year the bike is faster and more thermically efficient but he still has to master the Bridgestones.

We'll see. My opinion is that Rossi and Hayden could ride the Ducati the way Stoner does.

I don't know. I don't think we're near braking the "code" as to why Stoner and Ducati is such an awsome match. Rossi are good at adapting but I wouldn't bet my house that he would adapt to the Ducati as well as Stoner did. Besides, to me it looks like Rossi and JB are even better at adapting the bike to Rossi than adapting Rossi to the bike. There is no guarantee that it would work with the Ducati.

OK listen to the engines of Stoner and Rossi at the famous Le Mans' Garage Vert corner:

Rossi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rUR81QjcS4...feature=related

Stoner:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7plENYvjG4



Edit: listen, but of course also look

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Mar 26 2008, 10:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>OK listen to the engines of Stoner and Rossi at the famous Le Mans' Garage Vert corner:

Rossi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rUR81QjcS4...feature=related

Stoner:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7plENYvjG4



Edit: listen, but of course also look

Just at about when he is in line with the vertical pole before the "big screen" .... yes he does something .... and the TC goes nuts immediately too ...... so maybe you are right??

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 26 2008, 10:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'> I had so much trouble convincing my son's, then young, mate, that he wasn't on the same sort of budget that the factory guys were on ( informing him that they get new clutch plates each round ) ..... until he no longer had a clutch .... nor an ample purse to replace the plates ah memories, i used to just stick in a couple of extra plates

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Mar 26 2008, 11:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>OK listen to the engines of Stoner and Rossi at the famous Le Mans' Garage Vert corner:

Rossi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rUR81QjcS4...feature=related

Stoner:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7plENYvjG4



Edit: listen, but of course also look how much earlier do the revs build with that ducati???

could just be a question of having the thing geared differently, stoner goes up another gear much sooner than rossi, but man that ducati picks up the revs so quickly. good vids j4rn0. any more?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Mar 26 2008, 12:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>To me it sounds like a huge mess, reving up the engine leaned over and having TC limiting the power at the same time. Even worse so if the TC use the gear/rpm as an indicator of speed and settnig of limits.
............................

Sorry I missed this part in my previous answer.
Actually, if you keep the rear wheel initially braked when accelerating it is even possible that you can 'fool' the TC inducing it to deliver more power, as it will not sense the rear wheel spinning... Just guessing

Anyway I don't think TC is like a big brother entity that controls everything. However sophisticated, the ECUs can only offer a matrix of known possible interventions which are selected and fine-tuned during the general setup of the bike, by the rider himself. In a race the number of variables surely exceeds any TC matrix of possible interventions, and when things get to the limit the unknown becomes inevitably larger than the known.

Melandri said he cannot use Stoner's TC settings: this evidences that TC is an extension of bike setup and cannot be considered apart from the rider. Just as with setting up suspensions and frame parameters and tyres etc., riders must be capable of getting from the software engineers TC settings that are synergic both with their riding styles and the rest of the bike setup.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (skid @ Mar 26 2008, 06:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>how much earlier do the revs build with that ducati???

could just be a question of having the thing geared differently, stoner goes up another gear much sooner than rossi, but man that ducati picks up the revs so quickly. good vids j4rn0. any more?
Absolutely! Its funny how we try to make sense from a video and some sound to explain immensely complex matters. It reminds me of that tire pictures posted to explain the tire performance at Qatar. There could be a hundred reasons for the differences, one of which may be their riding styles.

But please, carry on, it’s very entertaining. I’m enjoying the reaching and well thought out hypothesis. Thats what we all do on forum anyway, right…

Damn you Dorna, three weeks is tooooo long!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Mar 26 2008, 06:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Absolutely! Its funny how we try to make sense from a video and some sound to explain immensely complex matters. It reminds me of that tire pictures posted to explain the tire performance at Qatar. There could be a hundred reasons for the differences, one of which may be their riding styles.

But please, carry on, it’s very entertaining. I’m enjoying the reaching and well thought out hypothesis. Thats what we all do on forum anyway, right…

Damn you Dorna, three weeks is tooooo long! nah jumkie, do you not see the nitrus can on the side of stoners right knee slider, what are you ...... stoopid!!!

( been listening to the jerky boys in the car, sorry )

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Mar 26 2008, 07:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>...................Thats what we all do on forum anyway, right…
Damn you Dorna, three weeks is tooooo long!