so what wrong with the other ducati's???

interesting stat from this weeks mcn, 19/03/2008


<u>Where would Ducati be without Casey Stoner</u>

In total, Stoner has scored 37 points more on his own than the nine other riders who have raced Ducati's GP8 added together.

TOTAL RACE POINTS IN 19 RACES

Stoner
<span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%392

Other nine Ducati's
<span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%355


the guy is just phenomenal

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (odessa @ Mar 24 2008, 10:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>interesting stat from this weeks mcn, 19/03/2008


<u>Where would Ducati be without Casey Stoner</u>

In total, Stoner has scored 37 points more on his own than the nine other riders who have raced Ducati's GP8 added together.

TOTAL RACE POINTS IN 19 RACES

Stoner
<span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%392

Other nine Ducati's
<span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%355


the guy is just phenomenal

I wonder how Ducati must feel ...... they must feel their grip on the title is tenuous at best ..... when its all up to one guy ...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 24 2008, 09:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I wonder how Ducati must feel ...... they must feel their grip on the title is tenuous at best ..... when its all up to one guy ...
you ain't lyin there... 1 bad off by stoneman & things won't be lookin very rosy for the red team.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pinky @ Mar 23 2008, 01:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i've been saying it for over a year now, he rides the snot out of that ducati.

the way it squirms and .... out of the corners.

Yes. That's it and that's where he gains those half seconds.
But HOW does he do it? That's the question. Supernatural riding skills?

I have seen him riding live only at Misano. Stoner not only looks but sounds different from the other riders (something difficult to hear from the TV) in that he begins revving up the engine earlier, with the bike still steeply leaned. I received the impression that he enters the corners without forcing the braking very much, leans the bike and almost immediately he opens the throttle, - but he doesn't explode in the air! He exits the corner as if rocket-propelled.

Not surprisingly, his Ducati gives signs of chattering in acceleration. One can see the rear entering into ample and violent oscillations - sometimes it looks like he is riding a bull. I believe he must use a really hard tyre to last until the end of the race.

Such a performance could be explained with a very skilled management of the rear brake. Doohan was doing something similar, entering the corners with the rear brake engaged and then accelerating early with the rear wheel still under brake.

Almost impossible to say if this is true, but it might also explain why there is only one Ducati at the top. Stoner exploits the 'intractable' Ducati power out of the corners, not only on the straights. None of the other Ducati riders have Stoner's style, and using this style on a bike lacking Ducati's strong points wouldn't probably give advantages as significant. It is a riding style that also wastes some fuel, so you need a bike that gives more power using a little less fuel - and Ducati fits this bill.

One might also expect that on some very technical tracks (see Valencia 2007) against a fast and well-balanced bike (i.e. one which gets close to Ducati's power while keeping a better overall balance) ridden by a talented, clean rider, the limits of Stoner's 'hysterical' riding style may begin to show. As they showed a few times in 2007.

I expect to see Rossi, Lorenzo and Pedrosa with their improved Yamahas and Hondas try more and more to press Stoner closely. If he can be forced to push more, his tyres may then fail to reach the end of the race, as in Mugello 2007, or he may manifest other weak points that are now scarcely visible.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pinky @ Mar 25 2008, 12:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>weak points in 2007?? lol he won 10 races hahahaha. i'll take those weaknesses any day.

p.s ducati are giving stoner a better bike than melandri coz ducati are really happy having one of their bike qualifying last and finishing last aswell

Oh, now I recognize you
For a moment I thought some common-sense colour had 'contaminated' that solid pink

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Mar 25 2008, 09:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I have seen him riding live only at Misano. Stoner not only looks but sounds different from the other riders (something difficult to hear from the TV) in that he begins revving up the engine earlier, with the bike still steeply leaned. I received the impression that he enters the corners without forcing the braking very much, leans the bike and almost immediately he opens the throttle, - but he doesn't explode in the air! He exits the corner as if rocket-propelled.

In dirt track here in Aust. there was a relatively common practice of clutching during the corner, hence building rev.s rapidly, then easing the clutch out as needed ..... it is also used in mx especially when you use a berm to lose speed then want to rocket out, or in supercross where the runnup to a jump is minimal ... ..... is it possible he is using that technique? They don't show clutch pull in the telemetry so it might be hard to tell. The sound is often that of a screaming engine on very high power .... with the clutch being modulated to get that power to the back wheel ..... as opposed to say merely using a throttle to apply power ( the downfall of which is it takes time to build to max. power )

Edit: just dawned on me ... it was also a technique that really is very useful when corners are squared off.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (odessa @ Mar 24 2008, 11:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>interesting stat from this weeks mcn, 19/03/2008


<u>Where would Ducati be without Casey Stoner</u>

In total, Stoner has scored 37 points more on his own than the nine other riders who have raced Ducati's GP8 added together.

TOTAL RACE POINTS IN 19 RACES

Stoner
<span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%392

Other nine Ducati's
<span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%355


the guy is just phenomenal

YEP that says it all...........Sack Milandri and put Bayliss on the No 2 bike

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Caseyfan @ Mar 25 2008, 09:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>YEP that says it all...........Sack Milandri and put Bayliss on the No 2 bike

Why would they do that?? .... Ducati have already "jokingly" said they need an australian and an italian to win titles ...... so they can do that in both WSBK and Motogp as it is at present


But anyway Bayliss is pretty adamant about retiring next year.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Caseyfan @ Mar 25 2008, 10:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>YEP that says it all...........Sack Milandri and put Bayliss on the No 2 bike

So he can bin it every other race?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Mar 24 2008, 10:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>One might also expect that on some very technical tracks (see Valencia 2007) against a fast and well-balanced bike (i.e. one which gets close to Ducati's power while keeping a better overall balance) ridden by a talented, clean rider, the limits of Stoner's 'hysterical' riding style may begin to show. As they showed a few times in 2007.

I expect to see Rossi, Lorenzo and Pedrth their improved Yamahas and Hondas try more and more to press Stoner closely. If he can be forced to push more, his tyres may then fail to reach the end of the race, as in Mugello 2007, or he may manifest other weak points that are now scarcely visible.


I think this is very fair comment regarding valencia, pedrosa looked much smoother and had stoner's measure from fairly early in the race. Stoner appeared to find something more in testing after the race though.

I am intrigued by your comment regarding mugello which I did not see as I was overseas (in the USA, a wasteland for motogp cover on hotel TV). I did wonder about his tyre choice vs barros, as in the races in which capirossi outperformed stoner in 2007 he usually made a different tyre choice( to stoner and ?the other bridgestone runners).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 25 2008, 11:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>In dirt track here in Aust. there was a relatively common practice of clutching during the corner, hence building rev.s rapidly, then easing the clutch out as needed ..... it is also used in mx especially when you use a berm to lose speed then want to rocket out, or in supercross where the runnup to a jump is minimal ... ..... is it possible he is using that technique? They don't show clutch pull in the telemetry so it might be hard to tell. The sound is often that of a screaming engine on very high power .... with the clutch being modulated to get that power to the back wheel ..... as opposed to say merely using a throttle to apply power ( the downfall of which is it takes time to build to max. power )

Edit: just dawned on me ... it was also a technique that really is very useful when corners are squared off.
Interesting point. Not sure how the slipper clutch etc would affect that though...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 25 2008, 11:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>In dirt track here in Aust. there was a relatively common practice of clutching during the corner, hence building rev.s rapidly, then easing the clutch out as needed ..... it is also used in mx especially when you use a berm to lose speed then want to rocket out, or in supercross where the runnup to a jump is minimal ... ..... is it possible he is using that technique? They don't show clutch pull in the telemetry so it might be hard to tell. The sound is often that of a screaming engine on very high power .... with the clutch being modulated to get that power to the back wheel ..... as opposed to say merely using a throttle to apply power ( the downfall of which is it takes time to build to max. power )

Edit: just dawned on me ... it was also a technique that really is very useful when corners are squared off.

It's used on 125's and those are comparable to the off road machines in power allthough you seldom hear it on GP tracks. A +200hp bike's manual clutch is not the way to modulate the power down to the surface. Btw, they don't show clutch pull but both revs and throttle and those would be giveaway but as mentioned above it would interfere with the slipperclutch and not to mention the traction control.

The only place I've seen the clutch being used on four strokes were supersport where the club racers with a propper track gear casette didn't have the right cogs for the small track with it's 50km/h kinks.

Just like your truths regarding lean angle and tire pressure, what applys to off road does not nesesarily apply to road surface.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Caseyfan @ Mar 25 2008, 10:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>YEP that says it all...........Sack Milandri and put Bayliss on the No 2 bike

Yeah because crashing is better than finnishing outside the top ten

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Mar 25 2008, 03:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Interesting point. Not sure how the slipper clutch etc would affect that though...

Hmmm... Ok I offer my 5 cents here, but do not quote me on this
Stoner enters the corner on the front brakes, then he shifts the pressure on the rear brake as he leans... Meanwhile he caresses the clutch to keep the engine revving higher than what the gear he's in would allow. This allows the power to increase, while the excess torque is absorbed by the engaged rear brake. By doing so the rear end is 'charged' with a reserve of torque which loads like a compressing spring.

As soon as he begins pulling the bike up, he opens the throttle, releasing the rear brake. The compressed torque explodes and makes the frame 'squirm' in that typical way. Somehow he can manage to ride the tide, and he exits the corner faster than others. Amen!
Easier said than done on those monsters... This is why he is among my favourite riders of all times...

Note that I never mentioned Traction Control. I am not one of those who believe that Stoner wins because of some superior TC... I think he found the perfect bike for his style anyway, because what he does is likely to use more fuel and the Ducati has the best intake pressure of all MotoGP bikes and is the most thermically optimized engine of the lot. On a Honda, he would probably run short of fuel, like (I'm guessing) Hayden at Phillip Island 2007...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Mar 25 2008, 12:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think this is very fair comment regarding valencia, pedrosa looked much smoother and had stoner's measure from fairly early in the race. Stoner appeared to find something more in testing after the race though.

I am intrigued by your comment regarding mugello which I did not see as I was overseas (in the USA, a wasteland for motogp cover on hotel TV). I did wonder about his tyre choice vs barros, as in the races in which capirossi outperformed stoner in 2007 he usually made a different tyre choice( to stoner and ?the other bridgestone runners).

My take is simply that at Mugello 2007 Stoner was pushed beyond his limit by the speed of Rossi and Pedrosa that day, so he finished his tyres before the end. Barros, who does not ride Stoner's style, had his tyres in a better condition at the end and so he passed Stoner pipping him for the podium. Btw, Ducati never forgave Barros for this

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Caseyfan @ Mar 25 2008, 11:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>YEP that says it all...........Sack Milandri and put Bayliss on the No 2 bike

If I was Ducati and he was available, I would take Hayden.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Mar 25 2008, 09:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hmmm... Ok I offer my 5 cents here, but do not quote me on this
Stoner enters the corner on the front brakes, then he shifts the pressure on the rear brake as he leans... Meanwhile he caresses the clutch to keep the engine revving higher than what the gear he's in would allow. This allows the power to increase, while the excess torque is absorbed by the engaged rear brake. By doing so the rear end is 'charged' with a reserve of torque which loads like a compressing spring.

As soon as he begins pulling the bike up, he opens the throttle, releasing the rear brake. The compressed torque explodes and makes the frame 'squirm' in that typical way. Somehow he can manage to ride the tide, and he exits the corner faster than others. Amen!
Easier said than done on those monsters... This is why he is among my favourite riders of all times...

Note that I never mentioned Traction Control. I am not one of those who believe that Stoner wins because of some superior TC... I think he found the perfect bike for his style anyway, because what he does is likely to use more fuel and the Ducati has the best intake pressure of all MotoGP bikes and is the most thermically optimized engine of the lot. On a Honda, he would probably run short of fuel, like (I'm guessing) Hayden at Phillip Island 2007...

Consider this:
If stoner are so much faster in the corner why are melandri faster on the straight on Quatar?
On a side note, we've seen Rossi and Stoner fithting it out in a long curve and Rossi were at least as fast as in 90% of the turn, only when the bike are almost straight up the Ducati take off.

You don't mention TC, fair enough, but how do you make that existing TC fit into a handeling as described? Wouldn't that totally mess up the TC

"The compressed torque explodes and makes the frame 'squirm' " I don't belive for a second that exploding torque on a +200bhp bike result in anything like a 'squirm'. Massive high side on the other hand...

Consider that even a production 1000cc today produce so much power that it takes some serious throttle control not to spin out the rear to a full blown high side when you go fast. To control the amount of power from a GP bike with the rear brake, clutch and throttle while you have to negotiate slids, bumps, head shake, wobble... is something a computer might be able to do in the not so far future but a human... sorry I don't by that.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Mar 26 2008, 01:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Interesting point. Not sure how the slipper clutch etc would affect that though...

Not at all ... the slipper clutch only disengages ( non-human controlled ) under extreme deceleration due to engine braking .... doesn't effect anything under acceleration of .... when you are disengaging the clutch.

Some slipper clutch examples:

Ratchet plate can be seen with yellow dot



can't see fully but has a ratchet shapet to the plates at top right.



quite a tiny mechanism ... mid picture .... looks a worry to me ..... bet I'd be ordering numerous of those .....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Mar 26 2008, 02:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It's used on 125's and those are comparable to the off road machines in power allthough you seldom hear it on GP tracks. A +200hp bike's manual clutch is not the way to modulate the power down to the surface. Btw, they don't show clutch pull but both revs and throttle and those would be giveaway but as mentioned above it would interfere with the slipperclutch and not to mention the traction control.

The only place I've seen the clutch being used on four strokes were supersport where the club racers with a propper track gear casette didn't have the right cogs for the small track with it's 50km/h kinks.

Just like your truths regarding lean angle and tire pressure, what applys to off road does not nesesarily apply to road surface.

Well I myself still do it on my dirt bike ( Ktm520 ) when I get lazy ( or want more "rocketness" in a situation ), and I have done it at moments on my old RG250 though it was in "street trim" it does work but I was never in that much of a hurry. Its just a tool to get more out of anything ... irrespective of the size. I don't think the fact that he has 230HP on tap comes into it really .... because one inalienable fact I observed in any race I ever had was ... "irrespective of how much power I have ... right now I need more than that guy!"

The slipper clutch wouldn't even be affected. Slippers are on a ratchet/paul system that ensures they work only for deceration.