so what wrong with the other ducati's???

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Mar 26 2008, 09:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sorry I missed this part in my previous answer.
Actually, if you keep the rear wheel initially braked when accelerating it is even possible that you can 'fool' the TC inducing it to deliver more power, as it will not sense the rear wheel spinning... Just guessing

Anyway I don't think TC is like a big brother entity that controls everything. However sophisticated, the ECUs can only offer a matrix of known possible interventions which are selected and fine-tuned during the general setup of the bike, by the rider himself. In a race the number of variables surely exceeds any TC matrix of possible interventions, and when things get to the limit the unknown becomes inevitably larger than the known.

Melandri said he cannot use Stoner's TC settings: this evidences that TC is an extension of bike setup and cannot be considered apart from the rider. Just as with setting up suspensions and frame parameters and tyres etc., riders must be capable of getting from the software engineers TC settings that are synergic both with their riding styles and the rest of the bike setup.

Okay this may be a rookie question, but here goes.

When watching the race they show RPM, breaking, throttle, speed, and lean angle on bikes at different times of the race. If this was a true indicator of what the rider was actually doing could we not see if Stoner was on the breaks and the throttle at the same time and where abouts in the turn this took place? Also how credible are these indicators?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Mar 26 2008, 07:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Okay this may be a rookie question, but here goes.

When watching the race they show RPM, breaking, throttle, speed, and lean angle on bikes at different times of the race. If this was a true indicator of what the rider was actually doing could we not see if Stoner was on the breaks and the throttle at the same time and where abouts in the turn this took place? Also how credible are these indicators?

I would guess they only show the front brake and I hope they don't use that with throttle. Trail braking is a known technique and was in it self a very primitive TC method regulated by the rider.
It was speculated that one of Doohans advantages was his thumb brake giving him better feel and control over the rear brake. I guess it's still used but the current slipper clutch and tc technology I don't know if the technique play much of a role anymore.

But we should still see little or no power, rising rpm and stable speed if he uses the clutch.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Mar 27 2008, 05:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Also how credible are these indicators?

"TV viewing Credible"!!...... thats how credible!!

There is a fair bit of lag involved. I was watching one of Stoner in the corkscrew, and just after the corkscrew he does something "funny" again, the sound is of rev's through the roof but the indicator is so lagged and "digital" it misses the peak rev's of the action, showing a very quick partial green bar excursion ......

These things are simplified and sanitized for our viewing.


I assume there are several constraints involved:

Timelag: from transmission.

Averaging: so as to not draw too much aquisition power from the teams data collection I would assume that it seems they must be using very intermittent data "catches" eg. sample rate may be say every 100ms. Hence peaks and troughs can be missed.

Viewability: red and green bargraphs, as provided, are the things of "looking pretty on the lounge room sound system" not what a data analyst wants to see ...

In the end listening and looking at the realatively analogue sound and picture is what we viewers are left to "at best" rely on.

Hence the reason we folk love to speculate ..... when someone gives a live "being there" description on the vision and sound, then I guess its additive information on what we percieve electronically.

But you do need to remember we are at best only speculating ...... it may be in the hope that it shall some day be confirmed for sure ...... but thats about as good as it gets for anyone outside of a team garage ....... TV viewers being at one of the lowest points in that "data availability" pecking order.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 26 2008, 03:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>"TV viewing Credible"!!...... thats how credible!!

There is a fair bit of lag involved. I was watching one of Stoner in the corkscrew, and just after the corkscrew he does something "funny" again, the sound is of rev's through the roof but the indicator is so lagged and "digital" it misses the peak rev's of the action, showing a very quick partial green bar excursion ......

These things are simplified and sanitized for our viewing.


I assume there are several constraints involved:

Timelag: from transmission.

Averaging: so as to not draw too much aquisition power from the teams data collection I would assume that it seems they must be using very intermittent data "catches" eg. sample rate may be say every 100ms. Hence peaks and troughs can be missed.

Viewability: red and green bargraphs, as provided, are the things of "looking pretty on the lounge room sound system" not what a data analyst wants to see ...

In the end listening and looking at the realatively analogue sound and picture is what we viewers are left to "at best" rely on.

Hence the reason we folk love to speculate ..... when someone gives a live "being there" description on the vision and sound, then I guess its additive information on what we percieve electronically.

But you do need to remember we are at best only speculating ...... it may be in the hope that it shall some day be confirmed for sure ...... but thats about as good as it gets for anyone outside of a team garage ....... TV viewers being at one of the lowest points in that "data availability" pecking order.

Good post, thanks.

I have previously posted that it is to early to call it but I have changed my mind, the other Ducati riders have absolutely NO idea how to ride the GP8. It is going to be a very long season for Marco, Sylvain and Toni (if they actually see out the season).

I wonder what the Alice Marketing person is thinking right now ... having spent a shitload of Euros on the Pramac team he/she must be shitting themselves!

It's a tough business, but the bike is winner ... why can't the others have a look at the #27 and learn something from him! I scratch my head!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (krusty @ Mar 28 2008, 12:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I have previously posted that it is to early to call it but I have changed my mind, the other Ducati riders have absolutely NO idea how to ride the GP8. It is going to be a very long season for Marco, Sylvain and Toni (if they actually see out the season).

I wonder what the Alice Marketing person is thinking right now ... having spent a shitload of Euros on the Pramac team he/she must be shitting themselves!

It's a tough business, but the bike is winner ... why can't the others have a look at the #27 and learn something from him! I scratch my head!
That'd be the #1 bike, not the #27 bike this year.

I agree though. Watching the other Ducks on the Motogp stream during fp2 they seem no nearer than during the off season to getting it sorted the way that Stoner has.

Hope the race is a good one - WhoreGay certainly loks fired up.

After watching Jerez today, I realised how good it was for Stoner to have had Capi. with him.

Stoner must have keft 07 feeling that he was on a great bike ....

but then the 3 new guys on Duc's have been going crap since they came in .....

I wondered why Stoner seemed overly appreciative of his bike at qatar ( patting the tank after the win )

Has the fact that the other riders are going crap made Stoner begin to wonder about the Duc?

Is this the type of pressure that will stuff him up?

Must be a shocker to see all the other bikes in such low placings. To be solely responsible for the teams points.

Or maybe he is just cursed at Jerez?

I think this weekend will be a blip for casey. They never found the right setup and i think hes been flustured from the start, if this happens often then he shold worry but for now just forget about it.

Who knows why the others don't get as much out of the Duke as Casey. Using Capirex and Barros comments as a barometer Ducati may have a hard time keeping one bike afloat much less four.


Barros mentioned that his team didn't have a lot of spare parts (front end) as well as the technical support. How much has this changed? (none of the players in the know what to comment)

Capirex turned down a third factory seat claiming that the team struggled to keep one factory rider supplied and up and running while the second suffered engine, electrical and other failures.

My point is that it may not be just down to the riders not being able to handle the bike. If Barros can ride the bike, Elias and Melandri should be able to ride the bike.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Mar 30 2008, 03:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think this weekend will be a blip for casey. They never found the right setup and i think hes been flustured from the start, if this happens often then he shold worry but for now just forget about it.
Hopefully it will be a lesson to him and he will moderate his ambition to winning the championship rather than every race, which his approach to day's race would seem to indicate was his goal up to now.

I actually am worried by what you said in the other thread, because if honda have redressed their recent woes and are back to their old standards in terms of engineering prowess they will get the pneumatic engine to work and may run away with the championship.

I Think Caseys in trouble. The Mistakes are back.
That boy was out of control today.
I worry for him.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pinky @ Mar 31 2008, 01:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>if u saw how the bike bahaved at the start well its a miracle he was in 3rd.

the 2nd "mistake" wasnt a mistake, he was ahead of nakano, when nakano moved over, stoner had no choice than to stand the bike up so he could brake

If he was ahead there wouldn't be a problem, he could have continued straigt ahead as usual. But Nakano did the until now unkown move "closing the door" and of course it took Stoner by surprice.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pinky @ Mar 30 2008, 11:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>the 2nd "mistake" wasnt a mistake, he was ahead of nakano, when nakano moved over, stoner had no choice than to stand the bike up so he could brake
I pretty much agree with this, in that I don't really think it was a riding error, although it was a fairly close to the edge move which would have been tactically and strategically stupid if he was third with several laps to go rather than risking an 11th placed finish for a possible shot at 5th if he got by promptly.

If he had settled for 5th from the start he would now be in a better position than after jerez last year. The performance of ducati in general is also a concern as it probably means he has to push too hard to be competitive, leading to mistakes like the first off.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Mar 31 2008, 01:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I pretty much agree with this, in that I don't really think it was a riding error, although it was a fairly close to the edge move which would have been tactically and strategically stupid if he was third with several laps to go rather than risking an 11th placed finish for a possible shot at 5th if he got by promptly.

If he had settled for 5th from the start he would now be in a better position than after jerez last year. The performance of ducati in general is also a concern as it probably means he has to push too hard to be competitive, leading to mistakes like the first off.

And I disagree. He was not ahead of Nakano and he was the inside rider of three riders almost side by side. Nakano did exactly what you do when you are passing someone on the brakes, go in early to block the race line as the one on the outside enter with a higher speed. If he knew stoner were there or not doesn't matter, HE was in front of stoner and picked his line. Thats racing. What stoner did was a bad judgment, expecting the two others to give way. He should have foreseen the move and started his own entry earlier or backed off earlier.

Except form that, yes he should have settled for 5th. That would have been well within reach.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Mar 31 2008, 12:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And I disagree. He was not ahead of Nakano and he was the inside rider of three riders almost side by side. Nakano did exactly what you do when you are passing someone on the brakes, go in early to block the race line as the one on the outside enter with a higher speed. If he knew stoner were there or not doesn't matter, HE was in front of stoner and picked his line. Thats racing. What stoner did was a bad judgment, expecting the two others to give way. He should have foreseen the move and started his own entry earlier or backed off earlier.

Except form that, yes he should have settled for 5th. That would have been well within reach.
I am not saying nakano made an error at all, and was probably worrying about vermeulen rather than stoner. Stoner should have realised that a pass was on between the two, and he could have waited one more corner rather than trying an extreme move on a corner he had previously had problems with. I think he was focusing on the riders ahead and worried he would be caught behind 2 riders who were slower than them and him.

He showed poor judgement the whole week-end. Someone did a calculation and worked out he would have finished 5th if he had run the same time as last year, and he never really looked like he had the pace of the factory hondas or yamahas, so what point was there to pushing so hard early?. It probably does show how much he hates losing, but this is not a good thing given the calibre of the opposition (both riders and machinery) this year.

I don't think there's anything too terribly wrong with the Ducati. Stoner looked strong at Qatar and had consistently quick lap times today. Had it not been for the couple of incidents, Stoner would have tucked comfortably in behind the Yamahas and Hondas. But Stoner isn't the question.

There is no question that Melandri is talented, he's a 250cc World Champion. That being said, I think he's a headcase. Since the 2006 season he's been extremely hot and cold. Even so, his talent will get him closer to the sharp end. It's just a matter of time.

As far as the Alice squad goes, it's all negative. The d'Antin squad has never financially supported it's riders. Every year it's a story of no money and no support and .... tires. So they got tires and a sponsor and the propaganda of help from Ducati Corse. I've heard it before. I'm not entirely sure what people were expecting. Toni Elias has never consistently impressed in MotoGP, as much as I like the guy. And Guintoli wasn't even impressive in 250s. Just because he wasn't finishing dead last on a Dunlop shod M1 made him respectable? It's the worst team in the series fielding likely the two least talented riders, certainly two of the three least talented riders.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Mar 31 2008, 02:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't think there's anything too terribly wrong with the Ducati. Stoner looked strong at Qatar and had consistently quick lap times today. Had it not been for the couple of incidents, Stoner would have tucked comfortably in behind the Yamahas and Hondas. But Stoner isn't the question.

There is no question that Melandri is talented, he's a 250cc World Champion. That being said, I think he's a headcase. Since the 2006 season he's been extremely hot and cold. Even so, his talent will get him closer to the sharp end. It's just a matter of time.

As far as the Alice squad goes, it's all negative. The d'Antin squad has never financially supported it's riders. Every year it's a story of no money and no support and .... tires. So they got tires and a sponsor and the propaganda of help from Ducati Corse. I've heard it before. I'm not entirely sure what people were expecting. Toni Elias has never consistently impressed in MotoGP, as much as I like the guy. And Guintoli wasn't even impressive in 250s. Just because he wasn't finishing dead last on a Dunlop shod M1 made him respectable? It's the worst team in the series fielding likely the two least talented riders, certainly two of the three least talented riders.

Should add Ant West into that group of .... riders.

Can't we just take the "Rossi-fan" approach and say that Stoner was forced into his mistakes becase he was pushing inferior equipment