Not going to Suzuki may be a blessing in disguise for Spies after all. The Suzuki is a steaming piece of offal, and there seems to be no end in sight for their mediocrity. If Spies can do well(and I think he will win a championship in WSBK) he will be able to demand a more competitive machine than the Suzuki. I like the fact that Ben is at or near the top of the time sheets for testing so far, and Josh Hayes showed that a good American rider(Josh is not the best by a wide margin) on a slow bike can bring it to the snobbish Euro's who wrongly believe that they have cornered the market in motorcycle racing talent.
Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogunski @ Nov 8 2008, 01:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Not going to Suzuki may be a blessing in disguise for Spies after all. The Suzuki is a steaming piece of offal, and there seems to be no end in sight for their mediocrity. If Spies can do well(and I think he will win a championship in WSBK) he will be able to demand a more competitive machine than the Suzuki. I like the fact that Ben is at or near the top of the time sheets for testing so far, and Josh Hayes showed that a good American rider(Josh is not the best by a wide margin) on a slow bike can bring it to the snobbish Euro's who wrongly believe that they have cornered the market in motorcycle racing talent.
A bit harsh Ogunski, and shades of Keshav's recent post on the Superbike forum. This is not the prevailing view in Europe at all. For a start, it is an irrefutable fact and is conventional wisdom that the influx of American talent during the late seventies and early eighties not only revolutionised the sport, but introduced a major paradigm shift in riding style.
As I stated in a recent thread, the AMA Superbike Championship is hampered by huge inequities in machinery and definitely lacks the depth of field/talent of other national series. Despite this, America has consistently produced some of the most talented riders to ever have graced the sport. I'm not denying that there is an element of elitism in Europe, but with Moto GP and WSB in respective Spanish and Italian hands this Eurocentric international bias to the sport is perhaps understandable. Some of us are actually aware the Superbike series itself was American in its inception. Sod the Flammini's, I remember Steve McClaughlin and how WSB originally started, and the impetus behind this going international was the dynanism of the American Superbike series and the spectacular racing that messrs Spencer, Cooley, and Lawson were enthralling bike fans with Stateside. Hell, I even remember Merkels mullet.
Today a good ride in AMA pays better than most WSB rides and arguably some Moto GP rides - enticing some into what is a dead end championship - many are thus consigned to a career path to oblivion. It has always been regarded as a series capable of producing immensely talented riders, but the imperative for a good rider to get on the international circuit as soon as possible (which means a move to Europe) cannot be understated. Remember, British riders face as many obstacles to securing a good ride/sponsorship and backing in GP through having 'the wrong passports' as Americans - just ask 'Norge' or Chaz Davies, which is why it's so refreshing to see JT, Danny Webb, Scott Redding and Bradley Smith on competitive machinery.
This is one of the many reasons Hayden's championship was so crucial. That America produces world class riders, who will at the end of the day be championship protagonists as opposed to merely marketing opportunities. In Spies, like Hayden you have both...as I've said before, it's no coincidence Hugh 'House' Laurie rides a Repsol Honda blade, and it's not because of Dani Pedrosa, or even Vale. America has huge potential to both World Championship series.
Ben has a great opportunity with Yamaha Italia, and I'm convinced as you are that his resultant immediate ascendency to the top of the Superbike ladder will furnish him better in respect of his future GP aspirations than a seat at Rizla Suzuki currently will.
A bit harsh Ogunski, and shades of Keshav's recent post on the Superbike forum. This is not the prevailing view in Europe at all. For a start, it is an irrefutable fact and is conventional wisdom that the influx of American talent during the late seventies and early eighties not only revolutionised the sport, but introduced a major paradigm shift in riding style.
As I stated in a recent thread, the AMA Superbike Championship is hampered by huge inequities in machinery and definitely lacks the depth of field/talent of other national series. Despite this, America has consistently produced some of the most talented riders to ever have graced the sport. I'm not denying that there is an element of elitism in Europe, but with Moto GP and WSB in respective Spanish and Italian hands this Eurocentric international bias to the sport is perhaps understandable. Some of us are actually aware the Superbike series itself was American in its inception. Sod the Flammini's, I remember Steve McClaughlin and how WSB originally started, and the impetus behind this going international was the dynanism of the American Superbike series and the spectacular racing that messrs Spencer, Cooley, and Lawson were enthralling bike fans with Stateside. Hell, I even remember Merkels mullet.
Today a good ride in AMA pays better than most WSB rides and arguably some Moto GP rides - enticing some into what is a dead end championship - many are thus consigned to a career path to oblivion. It has always been regarded as a series capable of producing immensely talented riders, but the imperative for a good rider to get on the international circuit as soon as possible (which means a move to Europe) cannot be understated. Remember, British riders face as many obstacles to securing a good ride/sponsorship and backing in GP through having 'the wrong passports' as Americans - just ask 'Norge' or Chaz Davies, which is why it's so refreshing to see JT, Danny Webb, Scott Redding and Bradley Smith on competitive machinery.
This is one of the many reasons Hayden's championship was so crucial. That America produces world class riders, who will at the end of the day be championship protagonists as opposed to merely marketing opportunities. In Spies, like Hayden you have both...as I've said before, it's no coincidence Hugh 'House' Laurie rides a Repsol Honda blade, and it's not because of Dani Pedrosa, or even Vale. America has huge potential to both World Championship series.
Ben has a great opportunity with Yamaha Italia, and I'm convinced as you are that his resultant immediate ascendency to the top of the Superbike ladder will furnish him better in respect of his future GP aspirations than a seat at Rizla Suzuki currently will.
I saw the title of this thread and who started it and just knew there would be some sort of purile attack about Dennings decision not to sign Spies.
Yawn Jumkie,yawn.
Yawn Jumkie,yawn.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Nov 8 2008, 07:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>A bit harsh Ogunski, and shades of Keshav's recent post on the Superbike forum. This is not the prevailing view in Europe at all. For a start, it is an irrefutable fact and is conventional wisdom that the influx of American talent during the late seventies and early eighties not only revolutionised the sport, but introduced a major paradigm shift in riding style.
As I stated in a recent thread, the AMA Superbike Championship is hampered by huge inequities in machinery and definitely lacks the depth of field/talent of other national series. Despite this, America has consistently produced some of the most talented riders to ever have graced the sport. I'm not denying that there is an element of elitism in Europe, but with Moto GP and WSB in respective Spanish and Italian hands this Eurocentric international bias to the sport is perhaps understandable. Some of us are actually aware the Superbike series itself was American in its inception. Sod the Flammini's, I remember Steve McClaughlin and how WSB originally started, and the impetus behind this going international was the dynanism of the American Superbike series and the spectacular racing that messrs Spencer, Cooley, and Lawson were enthralling bike fans with Stateside. Hell, I even remember Merkels mullet.
Today a good ride in AMA pays better than most WSB rides and arguably some Moto GP rides - enticing some into what is a dead end championship - many are thus consigned to a career path to oblivion. It has always been regarded as a series capable of producing immensely talented riders, but the imperative for a good rider to get on the international circuit as soon as possible (which means a move to Europe) cannot be understated. Remember, British riders face as many obstacles to securing a good ride/sponsorship and backing in GP through having 'the wrong passports' as Americans - just ask 'Norge' or Chaz Davies, which is why it's so refreshing to see JT, Danny Webb, Scott Redding and Bradley Smith on competitive machinery.
This is one of the many reasons Hayden's championship was so crucial. That America produces world class riders, who will at the end of the day be championship protagonists as opposed to merely marketing opportunities. In Spies, like Hayden you have both...as I've said before, it's no coincidence Hugh 'House' Laurie rides a Repsol Honda blade, and it's not because of Dani Pedrosa, or even Vale. America has huge potential to both World Championship series.
Ben has a great opportunity with Yamaha Italia, and I'm convinced as you are that his resultant immediate ascendency to the top of the Superbike ladder will furnish him better in respect of his future GP aspirations than a seat at Rizla Suzuki currently will.
^^^You make good points. I apologize for my generalization.
As I stated in a recent thread, the AMA Superbike Championship is hampered by huge inequities in machinery and definitely lacks the depth of field/talent of other national series. Despite this, America has consistently produced some of the most talented riders to ever have graced the sport. I'm not denying that there is an element of elitism in Europe, but with Moto GP and WSB in respective Spanish and Italian hands this Eurocentric international bias to the sport is perhaps understandable. Some of us are actually aware the Superbike series itself was American in its inception. Sod the Flammini's, I remember Steve McClaughlin and how WSB originally started, and the impetus behind this going international was the dynanism of the American Superbike series and the spectacular racing that messrs Spencer, Cooley, and Lawson were enthralling bike fans with Stateside. Hell, I even remember Merkels mullet.
Today a good ride in AMA pays better than most WSB rides and arguably some Moto GP rides - enticing some into what is a dead end championship - many are thus consigned to a career path to oblivion. It has always been regarded as a series capable of producing immensely talented riders, but the imperative for a good rider to get on the international circuit as soon as possible (which means a move to Europe) cannot be understated. Remember, British riders face as many obstacles to securing a good ride/sponsorship and backing in GP through having 'the wrong passports' as Americans - just ask 'Norge' or Chaz Davies, which is why it's so refreshing to see JT, Danny Webb, Scott Redding and Bradley Smith on competitive machinery.
This is one of the many reasons Hayden's championship was so crucial. That America produces world class riders, who will at the end of the day be championship protagonists as opposed to merely marketing opportunities. In Spies, like Hayden you have both...as I've said before, it's no coincidence Hugh 'House' Laurie rides a Repsol Honda blade, and it's not because of Dani Pedrosa, or even Vale. America has huge potential to both World Championship series.
Ben has a great opportunity with Yamaha Italia, and I'm convinced as you are that his resultant immediate ascendency to the top of the Superbike ladder will furnish him better in respect of his future GP aspirations than a seat at Rizla Suzuki currently will.
^^^You make good points. I apologize for my generalization.
Joined Mar 2005
7K Posts | 20+
Woody Creek
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr. Shupe @ Nov 7 2008, 09:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hayes' run kind of makes you wish Zemke had gone to WSS on a Honda instead, doesn't it?
I was wishing that before Hayes left the continent. Zemke is the most underrated rider in the states.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Nov 8 2008, 06:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>A bit harsh Ogunski, and shades of Keshav's recent post on the Superbike forum. This is not the prevailing view in Europe at all. For a start, it is an irrefutable fact and is conventional wisdom that the influx of American talent during the late seventies and early eighties not only revolutionised the sport, but introduced a major paradigm shift in riding style.
As I stated in a recent thread, the AMA Superbike Championship is hampered by huge inequities in machinery and definitely lacks the depth of field/talent of other national series. Despite this, America has consistently produced some of the most talented riders to ever have graced the sport. I'm not denying that there is an element of elitism in Europe, but with Moto GP and WSB in respective Spanish and Italian hands this Eurocentric international bias to the sport is perhaps understandable. Some of us are actually aware the Superbike series itself was American in its inception. Sod the Flammini's, I remember Steve McClaughlin and how WSB originally started, and the impetus behind this going international was the dynanism of the American Superbike series and the spectacular racing that messrs Spencer, Cooley, and Lawson were enthralling bike fans with Stateside. Hell, I even remember Merkels mullet.
Today a good ride in AMA pays better than most WSB rides and arguably some Moto GP rides - enticing some into what is a dead end championship - many are thus consigned to a career path to oblivion. It has always been regarded as a series capable of producing immensely talented riders, but the imperative for a good rider to get on the international circuit as soon as possible (which means a move to Europe) cannot be understated. Remember, British riders face as many obstacles to securing a good ride/sponsorship and backing in GP through having 'the wrong passports' as Americans - just ask 'Norge' or Chaz Davies, which is why it's so refreshing to see JT, Danny Webb, Scott Redding and Bradley Smith on competitive machinery.
This is one of the many reasons Hayden's championship was so crucial. That America produces world class riders, who will at the end of the day be championship protagonists as opposed to merely marketing opportunities. In Spies, like Hayden you have both...as I've said before, it's no coincidence Hugh 'House' Laurie rides a Repsol Honda blade, and it's not because of Dani Pedrosa, or even Vale. America has huge potential to both World Championship series.
Ben has a great opportunity with Yamaha Italia, and I'm convinced as you are that his resultant immediate ascendency to the top of the Superbike ladder will furnish him better in respect of his future GP aspirations than a seat at Rizla Suzuki currently will.
Top post.
I was wishing that before Hayes left the continent. Zemke is the most underrated rider in the states.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Nov 8 2008, 06:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>A bit harsh Ogunski, and shades of Keshav's recent post on the Superbike forum. This is not the prevailing view in Europe at all. For a start, it is an irrefutable fact and is conventional wisdom that the influx of American talent during the late seventies and early eighties not only revolutionised the sport, but introduced a major paradigm shift in riding style.
As I stated in a recent thread, the AMA Superbike Championship is hampered by huge inequities in machinery and definitely lacks the depth of field/talent of other national series. Despite this, America has consistently produced some of the most talented riders to ever have graced the sport. I'm not denying that there is an element of elitism in Europe, but with Moto GP and WSB in respective Spanish and Italian hands this Eurocentric international bias to the sport is perhaps understandable. Some of us are actually aware the Superbike series itself was American in its inception. Sod the Flammini's, I remember Steve McClaughlin and how WSB originally started, and the impetus behind this going international was the dynanism of the American Superbike series and the spectacular racing that messrs Spencer, Cooley, and Lawson were enthralling bike fans with Stateside. Hell, I even remember Merkels mullet.
Today a good ride in AMA pays better than most WSB rides and arguably some Moto GP rides - enticing some into what is a dead end championship - many are thus consigned to a career path to oblivion. It has always been regarded as a series capable of producing immensely talented riders, but the imperative for a good rider to get on the international circuit as soon as possible (which means a move to Europe) cannot be understated. Remember, British riders face as many obstacles to securing a good ride/sponsorship and backing in GP through having 'the wrong passports' as Americans - just ask 'Norge' or Chaz Davies, which is why it's so refreshing to see JT, Danny Webb, Scott Redding and Bradley Smith on competitive machinery.
This is one of the many reasons Hayden's championship was so crucial. That America produces world class riders, who will at the end of the day be championship protagonists as opposed to merely marketing opportunities. In Spies, like Hayden you have both...as I've said before, it's no coincidence Hugh 'House' Laurie rides a Repsol Honda blade, and it's not because of Dani Pedrosa, or even Vale. America has huge potential to both World Championship series.
Ben has a great opportunity with Yamaha Italia, and I'm convinced as you are that his resultant immediate ascendency to the top of the Superbike ladder will furnish him better in respect of his future GP aspirations than a seat at Rizla Suzuki currently will.
Top post.
Denning isn't stupid. In fact, he has made all the right decisions. He has a limited budget, limited machine development schedule and limited factory support. He signed a couple of fine riders for a year to see how they would adjust to the coming new tire regulations. Like he needs some guy (Spies) screaming in his ear that he can't win on the machine after every race and that the GS is holding him back from becoming world champ. Denning ....... knows both are true. Spies is potentially world championship material and he won't be doing it on the Suzuki next year and he doesn't know when he will have a championship winning machine from the factory to offer a potential champ. He is running a small team and he has to keep a balance and achieve what they are able to as a team. Signing Spies would have unbalanced the team and perhaps they would have faired worse.
To exaggerate to make my point: Would you hire Micheal Jordan on a college team and expect to win just because he was on the team? No way are you going to win. In fact, you are going to destroy the team by putting an overachiever in a situation that he is guarantied to be unhappy with and it will destroy any chances you have to win at all because the team dynamic will implode. It isn't Yamaha or Honda where they can afford to deal with the team in a top down approach with the rider calling all the shots. They have what they have. That is the reality that Denning is well aware of. Perhaps you should look back at the team before he came and comment on that. Don't be so pissed for Spies. He is running probably the most advanced machine in the WSBK paddock and he has all his future doors wide open.
To exaggerate to make my point: Would you hire Micheal Jordan on a college team and expect to win just because he was on the team? No way are you going to win. In fact, you are going to destroy the team by putting an overachiever in a situation that he is guarantied to be unhappy with and it will destroy any chances you have to win at all because the team dynamic will implode. It isn't Yamaha or Honda where they can afford to deal with the team in a top down approach with the rider calling all the shots. They have what they have. That is the reality that Denning is well aware of. Perhaps you should look back at the team before he came and comment on that. Don't be so pissed for Spies. He is running probably the most advanced machine in the WSBK paddock and he has all his future doors wide open.
Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Nov 8 2008, 06:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Perhaps you should look back at the team before he came and comment on that. Don't be so pissed for Spies. He is running probably the most advanced machine in the WSBK paddock and he has all his future doors wide open.
I already did...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Oct 23 2008, 09:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It looked like the GP team stagnated post KRJR's championship in 2000, and certainly was blighted by a lack of development during '01. When the 4 strokes were ushered in they missed the starter gun, and have been non runners playing catch up ever since.
As most followers of BSB would doubtless testify, Denning ran a tight ship at Crescent - which was to list badly following his departure (and those of Reynolds and Kagayama). I thought his appointment following the retirement of Gary Taylor at the end of 04 looked to be a good thing and that things were on the up. In spite of this '05 was another dismal year and finally saw the exit of a disenchated and thoroughly disgruntled KRJR, and although Hopper kicked .... out of the thing at Qatar in early '06, by the end of the season and the demise of the 990's - following a concerted factory effort, it looked like a pretty sorted ride and with much of the 800 development done that year, things augered well for the following season. Even at the end of '07, I thought that Capi was inheriting a decent ride, and Vermeulen would regularly start pushing for podium places. Not to be. It's probably time for a sea change in personnel in that garage, which is bizarre because on paper and with old heads like Stewart Shenton and Tom O'Kane there's a wealth of experience but sadly a dearth of results. Maybe Denning should be made to walk the plank, but he still leaves a sinking ship behind him.
It is too early to be sure, but from what I've seen Spies is a mercurial talent - one which could have revived the fortunes and credibility of Suzuki as a Moto GP franchise. I actually have great respect for Paul Denning, but this can only be seen as an opportunity missed, perhaps their most signficant prospect since Schwantz because I really believe that Spies could have gone a long way to turning that team around..and it was never to be.
He certainly does have all his future doors wide open. As I said earlier, Massimo Meregali's Yamaha Italia team is a great move for Ben, and when he dominates in WSB which he is sure to do in time and becomes the most sought after acquisition for the Moto GP paddock, Suzuki simply won't be in contention for his signature.
I already did...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Oct 23 2008, 09:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It looked like the GP team stagnated post KRJR's championship in 2000, and certainly was blighted by a lack of development during '01. When the 4 strokes were ushered in they missed the starter gun, and have been non runners playing catch up ever since.
As most followers of BSB would doubtless testify, Denning ran a tight ship at Crescent - which was to list badly following his departure (and those of Reynolds and Kagayama). I thought his appointment following the retirement of Gary Taylor at the end of 04 looked to be a good thing and that things were on the up. In spite of this '05 was another dismal year and finally saw the exit of a disenchated and thoroughly disgruntled KRJR, and although Hopper kicked .... out of the thing at Qatar in early '06, by the end of the season and the demise of the 990's - following a concerted factory effort, it looked like a pretty sorted ride and with much of the 800 development done that year, things augered well for the following season. Even at the end of '07, I thought that Capi was inheriting a decent ride, and Vermeulen would regularly start pushing for podium places. Not to be. It's probably time for a sea change in personnel in that garage, which is bizarre because on paper and with old heads like Stewart Shenton and Tom O'Kane there's a wealth of experience but sadly a dearth of results. Maybe Denning should be made to walk the plank, but he still leaves a sinking ship behind him.
It is too early to be sure, but from what I've seen Spies is a mercurial talent - one which could have revived the fortunes and credibility of Suzuki as a Moto GP franchise. I actually have great respect for Paul Denning, but this can only be seen as an opportunity missed, perhaps their most signficant prospect since Schwantz because I really believe that Spies could have gone a long way to turning that team around..and it was never to be.
He certainly does have all his future doors wide open. As I said earlier, Massimo Meregali's Yamaha Italia team is a great move for Ben, and when he dominates in WSB which he is sure to do in time and becomes the most sought after acquisition for the Moto GP paddock, Suzuki simply won't be in contention for his signature.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Nov 8 2008, 07:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I already did...
It is too early to be sure, but from what I've seen Spies is a mercurial talent - one which could have revived the fortunes and credibility of Suzuki as a Moto GP franchise. I actually have great respect for Paul Denning, but this can only be seen as an opportunity missed, perhaps their most signficant prospect since Schwantz because I really believe that Spies could have gone a long way to turning that team around..and it was never to be.
He certainly does have all his future doors wide open. As I said earlier, Massimo Meregali's Yamaha Italia team is a great move for Ben, and when he dominates in WSB which he is sure to do in time and becomes the most sought after acquisition for the Moto GP paddock, Suzuki simply won't be in contention for his signature.
all the spies/suzuki saga is based on one thing, that suzuki did not sign spies for whatever reason.
that is an assumption as no one here knows what happened behind the closed doors of contract negotiations. it is also just as possible that spies turned down suzuki.
jumkie has called lex out on his derision of what obama might do as opposed to what he has done and i see parallels in this situation
pouncing on every opportunity to get a dig at suzuki in because of a perceived injustice based on an assumption seems a bit thin and spiteful to me, a bit childish even.
i would have loved to have spies ride for suzuki and am sorry it did not happen. but its done and there is nothing we can do to change that. i would also love for suzuki to shake up their race dept. and get the right people into the key positions. that means the personnel higher up than denning.
It is too early to be sure, but from what I've seen Spies is a mercurial talent - one which could have revived the fortunes and credibility of Suzuki as a Moto GP franchise. I actually have great respect for Paul Denning, but this can only be seen as an opportunity missed, perhaps their most signficant prospect since Schwantz because I really believe that Spies could have gone a long way to turning that team around..and it was never to be.
He certainly does have all his future doors wide open. As I said earlier, Massimo Meregali's Yamaha Italia team is a great move for Ben, and when he dominates in WSB which he is sure to do in time and becomes the most sought after acquisition for the Moto GP paddock, Suzuki simply won't be in contention for his signature.
all the spies/suzuki saga is based on one thing, that suzuki did not sign spies for whatever reason.
that is an assumption as no one here knows what happened behind the closed doors of contract negotiations. it is also just as possible that spies turned down suzuki.
jumkie has called lex out on his derision of what obama might do as opposed to what he has done and i see parallels in this situation
pouncing on every opportunity to get a dig at suzuki in because of a perceived injustice based on an assumption seems a bit thin and spiteful to me, a bit childish even.
i would have loved to have spies ride for suzuki and am sorry it did not happen. but its done and there is nothing we can do to change that. i would also love for suzuki to shake up their race dept. and get the right people into the key positions. that means the personnel higher up than denning.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Nov 8 2008, 07:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>pouncing on every opportunity to get a dig at suzuki in because of a perceived injustice based on an assumption seems a bit thin and spiteful to me, a bit childish even.
Additionally the displeasure is all based on the belief (not fact) that Spies has some kind of entitlement to be in motogp, which is obviously not the case. He is a very promising rider for sure but he is still a risk just like any rider is to a team. Where is the gratitude that Suzuki put Ben in the shop window at all? where is the thanks that he got an opertunity that not many riders ever get?
Additionally the displeasure is all based on the belief (not fact) that Spies has some kind of entitlement to be in motogp, which is obviously not the case. He is a very promising rider for sure but he is still a risk just like any rider is to a team. Where is the gratitude that Suzuki put Ben in the shop window at all? where is the thanks that he got an opertunity that not many riders ever get?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Nov 8 2008, 08:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Additionally the displeasure is all based on the belief (not fact) that Spies has some kind of entitlement to be in motogp, which is obviously not the case. He is a very promising rider for sure but he is still a risk just like any rider is to a team. Where is the gratitude that Suzuki put Ben in the shop window at all? where is the thanks that he got an opertunity that not many riders ever get?
Some great insight on this topic men! Spies achieved quite well in his wildcard rides and I agree that he truly deserved a spot in the Rizla garage. I disagree that going to WSBK is a good thing. He will only learn a few tracks that are shared by the two top series. The time is now to get to Gp, get acclimated with the tracks and win another world title for America. Motogp is THE world championship and it is real disappointing that Ben is going to have wait around to give it his best shot over many years. Why is Vermuelen so well liked by everyone? He has underachieved basically his whole career aside from the rain, and Loris handed him his butt the entire second half of the season. Chris should have been canned, and maybe he could have went back home to WSBK! I will take you Chris V. lovers hatemail if you would like, haha.
Some great insight on this topic men! Spies achieved quite well in his wildcard rides and I agree that he truly deserved a spot in the Rizla garage. I disagree that going to WSBK is a good thing. He will only learn a few tracks that are shared by the two top series. The time is now to get to Gp, get acclimated with the tracks and win another world title for America. Motogp is THE world championship and it is real disappointing that Ben is going to have wait around to give it his best shot over many years. Why is Vermuelen so well liked by everyone? He has underachieved basically his whole career aside from the rain, and Loris handed him his butt the entire second half of the season. Chris should have been canned, and maybe he could have went back home to WSBK! I will take you Chris V. lovers hatemail if you would like, haha.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dphairoh @ Nov 8 2008, 09:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Some great insight on this topic men! Spies achieved quite well in his wildcard rides and I agree that he truly deserved a spot in the Rizla garage. I disagree that going to WSBK is a good thing. He will only learn a few tracks that are shared by the two top series. The time is now to get to Gp, get acclimated with the tracks and win another world title for America. Motogp is THE world championship and it is real disappointing that Ben is going to have wait around to give it his best shot over many years. Why is Vermuelen so well liked by everyone? He has underachieved basically his whole career aside from the rain, and Loris handed him his butt the entire second half of the season. Chris should have been canned, and maybe he could have went back home to WSBK! I will take you Chris V. lovers hatemail if you would like, haha.
Perhaps he can do well in WSBK on the Yamaha and then get a ride at Tech3 in 2010.If they can afford him.They seem to like WSBK riders anyway.IMHO he may not have planned to get a RizlaSuzuki ride at all,only a MotoGP ride in a good team.
Perhaps he can do well in WSBK on the Yamaha and then get a ride at Tech3 in 2010.If they can afford him.They seem to like WSBK riders anyway.IMHO he may not have planned to get a RizlaSuzuki ride at all,only a MotoGP ride in a good team.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Anders GUZZI @ Nov 8 2008, 09:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Perhaps he can do well in WSBK on the Yamaha and then get a ride at Tech3 in 2010.If they can afford him.They seem to like WSBK riders anyway.IMHO he may not have planned to get a RizlaSuzuki ride at all,only a MotoGP ride in a good team.
Ben was really loyal to Suzuki and maybe he was a bit naive in thinking they would be loyal to him in return. He made a lot of comments during the AMA season about Suzuki and that it kinda was his dream ride to continue on with Suzuki to the ultimate level in motorcycle racing. I am concerned for Ben because his chief rivals when he gets there Casey, Dani, Jorge and Andrea are his age or younger and picking up the valuable experience too. I really don't see why people think Rizla is a bad ride. For one it's not Kawasaki, haha. Hopkins did well in 07 and Loris and my boy CV7 had strong rides for Denning and Co in 08. I think its a pretty damn strong team, superior to the satellite outfits to me!
Ben was really loyal to Suzuki and maybe he was a bit naive in thinking they would be loyal to him in return. He made a lot of comments during the AMA season about Suzuki and that it kinda was his dream ride to continue on with Suzuki to the ultimate level in motorcycle racing. I am concerned for Ben because his chief rivals when he gets there Casey, Dani, Jorge and Andrea are his age or younger and picking up the valuable experience too. I really don't see why people think Rizla is a bad ride. For one it's not Kawasaki, haha. Hopkins did well in 07 and Loris and my boy CV7 had strong rides for Denning and Co in 08. I think its a pretty damn strong team, superior to the satellite outfits to me!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dphairoh @ Nov 8 2008, 11:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ben was really loyal to Suzuki and maybe he was a bit naive in thinking they would be loyal to him in return. He made a lot of comments during the AMA season about Suzuki and that it kinda was his dream ride to continue on with Suzuki to the ultimate level in motorcycle racing. I am concerned for Ben because his chief rivals when he gets there Casey, Dani, Jorge and Andrea are his age or younger and picking up the valuable experience too. I really don't see why people think Rizla is a bad ride. For one it's not Kawasaki, haha. Hopkins did well in 07 and Loris and my boy CV7 had strong rides for Denning and Co in 08. I think its a pretty damn strong team, superior to the satellite outfits to me!
I don't think RizlaMotogp team is that bad.They could be getting somewhere in 09 but the bike is going to need some big improvements to be on level with Honda,Yamaha and Ducati next year.
My point was,it wouldn't be so easy to challenge for the title or be up front on a Suzuki and all the other good rides were taken.In AMA as i have understood the Suzuki was one of the better bikes avaliable.As there was no top team bike avaliable in Moto gp,he choose WSBK and got a top team ride.
Ofcourse if he would/were able to accepta Suzuki motogp ride he would gain track- and all the other experience.But,he also didn't risk becomming a rookie among all the others who maybe won't get one more chance if he didn't do so well.
Yes Hopkins did well 07 ,Vermulen too.But i think the Suzuki was better then compared to the others maybe because they had a little bit of a head start as there was as i understand it alot in common with the 06 bike.
Pneumatic valves and so on.I don't have all that much knowledge about the details but the developement speed seem to have increased since then and Suzuki hasn't kept up with the frontrunners.
I don't think RizlaMotogp team is that bad.They could be getting somewhere in 09 but the bike is going to need some big improvements to be on level with Honda,Yamaha and Ducati next year.
My point was,it wouldn't be so easy to challenge for the title or be up front on a Suzuki and all the other good rides were taken.In AMA as i have understood the Suzuki was one of the better bikes avaliable.As there was no top team bike avaliable in Moto gp,he choose WSBK and got a top team ride.
Ofcourse if he would/were able to accepta Suzuki motogp ride he would gain track- and all the other experience.But,he also didn't risk becomming a rookie among all the others who maybe won't get one more chance if he didn't do so well.
Yes Hopkins did well 07 ,Vermulen too.But i think the Suzuki was better then compared to the others maybe because they had a little bit of a head start as there was as i understand it alot in common with the 06 bike.
Pneumatic valves and so on.I don't have all that much knowledge about the details but the developement speed seem to have increased since then and Suzuki hasn't kept up with the frontrunners.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Nov 8 2008, 07:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i would have loved to have spies ride for suzuki and am sorry it did not happen. but its done and there is nothing we can do to change that. i would also love for suzuki to shake up their race dept. and get the right people into the key positions. that means the personnel higher up than denning.
Exactly. Looks like BigAl is my new best mate
Exactly. Looks like BigAl is my new best mate
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rgvneil @ Nov 9 2008, 07:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Exactly. Looks like BigAl is my new best mate
Well Neil, unfortunately you won't get to marry BigAl in Cali, but I think you still can in Mass.
Haha, you crack me up. Of course this is a dig at Denning. After-all, he has a major say in the direction of the team, and it seems that direction was to have more of the same mediocrity. Ok, I get it, you may disagree, no problem buddy, but his comments on him learning so much about cars (while rally racing) just seemed a bit rich while his motorcycle team goes to ..... (BTW, I get your loyalty to the brand, I have a Gsxr in the garage as we speak, its my track bike, its the bike Roger used, remember). I'm not shitting on the brand buddy, I'm just shitting on the guy that has not taken it to its potential. And yes, I blame the guy, after-all, he has a major position of responsibility, and that is what we do when a team underperforms, we look to the leader for that responsibility. He also voiced his displeasure about Spies after Assen, as I think it was more a personal pride thing rather than him using his brain to discern talent. So, I think shitting on the guy is called for. Now you can 'yawn' all you want, but if the guy makes the news, you can bet I'm gonna remind us what a poor team leader he is.
Oh, and BigAl, its not a matter of 'future' as you say, but rather we have some actual performance to go by, and I must say, Spies was impressive. Now if you're gonna say, we don't know how he would do in a season, well then, that applies to every unsigned rider (all the rookies), so what is your point? I think you are stretching.
Well Neil, unfortunately you won't get to marry BigAl in Cali, but I think you still can in Mass.
Haha, you crack me up. Of course this is a dig at Denning. After-all, he has a major say in the direction of the team, and it seems that direction was to have more of the same mediocrity. Ok, I get it, you may disagree, no problem buddy, but his comments on him learning so much about cars (while rally racing) just seemed a bit rich while his motorcycle team goes to ..... (BTW, I get your loyalty to the brand, I have a Gsxr in the garage as we speak, its my track bike, its the bike Roger used, remember). I'm not shitting on the brand buddy, I'm just shitting on the guy that has not taken it to its potential. And yes, I blame the guy, after-all, he has a major position of responsibility, and that is what we do when a team underperforms, we look to the leader for that responsibility. He also voiced his displeasure about Spies after Assen, as I think it was more a personal pride thing rather than him using his brain to discern talent. So, I think shitting on the guy is called for. Now you can 'yawn' all you want, but if the guy makes the news, you can bet I'm gonna remind us what a poor team leader he is.
Oh, and BigAl, its not a matter of 'future' as you say, but rather we have some actual performance to go by, and I must say, Spies was impressive. Now if you're gonna say, we don't know how he would do in a season, well then, that applies to every unsigned rider (all the rookies), so what is your point? I think you are stretching.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Nov 8 2008, 12:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Additionally the displeasure is all based on the belief (not fact) that Spies has some kind of entitlement to be in motogp, which is obviously not the case. He is a very promising rider for sure but he is still a risk just like any rider is to a team. Where is the gratitude that Suzuki put Ben in the shop window at all? where is the thanks that he got an opertunity that not many riders ever get?
Do you cellophane wrap your keyboard to keep all the .... you type from ruining your computer?
Tell me something; was Max Biaggi “entitled” to get a seat in MotoGP? How about say Pedrosa? The fact is Mr. Captain Obvious, everybody that comes into MotoGP has a ‘perceived” value, none of which are proven or entitled! So you saying he or we feel he has a sense of “entitlement” is your attempt at bullshiting when you have nothing-logical or credible to say, in other word, usual ........-Tom. Do they offer debate-logic classes at your school, you may want to take some time to enroll in one.
We can use some performances to judge against this uncertainty of promoting a rider into MotoGP. Now take for example a Max Biaggi. You would think that a four time feeder-class champion would be a shoe in to MotoGP right? Well, he was still a risk, was he not (according to your logic)? After-all, is not the goal of any team to win a title with that rider? That is what factories aim for when they invest millions, right? You might even say, he would be a shoe in for a world title in the premier class, the odds would be in that favor, but he never did. Now lets contrast that to a guy like Stoner, who never won a feeder-class championship, yet was also promoted, and now he is a premier titleholder kicking most everybody’s .... So we can minimize the risk of uncertainty as you can see, by discerning talent. Nobody is “entitled”; however, let me remind you though, from your theme of posts glorifying the feeder-classes, as if they have some magical entitlement, that its from this class that most likely make champions. Though I have already dispelled that claim by listing the many American riders who graduated from the AMA and later went on to premier class champs. (Or have you forgot that I already schooled you).
Now Spies went a long way toward minimizing this risk, in that, they actually can judge from three separate performance in MotoGP, in an actual race setting, while factoring in the limitations of the machine; and compare that to his team rivals which he beat on separate occasions. When you examine this, it looks pretty good in his favor. This goes a long way toward minimizing that risk factor.
As far as your second equally lame point, perhaps you are not aware that brands actually benefit from having a very talented rider on their machine. They do this not for “graciousness” but to move product. It seems if you are going to cite “gratitude” it would stand more to reason that Suzuki should have signed him for his three very marketable titles in the US (where they sell most of their product). It’s a two-way street, sure there is gratitude for giving him an opportunity, and there is also that issue of loyalty. Its not like Spies turned down the opportunity to ride those wild cards. And he performed well. Again, your second point evaporates.
Now contrast this to Rizla-Suzuki’s reaction, which is to sign the same old tired team under the management of a mediocre team manager content in more of the same.
(It must suck being you, debating me, though I’m fully aware that you are not comprehending the logic, I write not for you, but for the interested discerning readers here).
Do you cellophane wrap your keyboard to keep all the .... you type from ruining your computer?
Tell me something; was Max Biaggi “entitled” to get a seat in MotoGP? How about say Pedrosa? The fact is Mr. Captain Obvious, everybody that comes into MotoGP has a ‘perceived” value, none of which are proven or entitled! So you saying he or we feel he has a sense of “entitlement” is your attempt at bullshiting when you have nothing-logical or credible to say, in other word, usual ........-Tom. Do they offer debate-logic classes at your school, you may want to take some time to enroll in one.
We can use some performances to judge against this uncertainty of promoting a rider into MotoGP. Now take for example a Max Biaggi. You would think that a four time feeder-class champion would be a shoe in to MotoGP right? Well, he was still a risk, was he not (according to your logic)? After-all, is not the goal of any team to win a title with that rider? That is what factories aim for when they invest millions, right? You might even say, he would be a shoe in for a world title in the premier class, the odds would be in that favor, but he never did. Now lets contrast that to a guy like Stoner, who never won a feeder-class championship, yet was also promoted, and now he is a premier titleholder kicking most everybody’s .... So we can minimize the risk of uncertainty as you can see, by discerning talent. Nobody is “entitled”; however, let me remind you though, from your theme of posts glorifying the feeder-classes, as if they have some magical entitlement, that its from this class that most likely make champions. Though I have already dispelled that claim by listing the many American riders who graduated from the AMA and later went on to premier class champs. (Or have you forgot that I already schooled you).
Now Spies went a long way toward minimizing this risk, in that, they actually can judge from three separate performance in MotoGP, in an actual race setting, while factoring in the limitations of the machine; and compare that to his team rivals which he beat on separate occasions. When you examine this, it looks pretty good in his favor. This goes a long way toward minimizing that risk factor.
As far as your second equally lame point, perhaps you are not aware that brands actually benefit from having a very talented rider on their machine. They do this not for “graciousness” but to move product. It seems if you are going to cite “gratitude” it would stand more to reason that Suzuki should have signed him for his three very marketable titles in the US (where they sell most of their product). It’s a two-way street, sure there is gratitude for giving him an opportunity, and there is also that issue of loyalty. Its not like Spies turned down the opportunity to ride those wild cards. And he performed well. Again, your second point evaporates.
Now contrast this to Rizla-Suzuki’s reaction, which is to sign the same old tired team under the management of a mediocre team manager content in more of the same.
(It must suck being you, debating me, though I’m fully aware that you are not comprehending the logic, I write not for you, but for the interested discerning readers here).
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Nov 8 2008, 10:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Denning isn't stupid. In fact, he has made all the right decisions. He has a limited budget, limited machine development schedule and limited factory support. He signed a couple of fine riders for a year to see how they would adjust to the coming new tire regulations. Like he needs some guy (Spies) screaming in his ear that he can't win on the machine after every race and that the GS is holding him back from becoming world champ. Denning ....... knows both are true. Spies is potentially world championship material and he won't be doing it on the Suzuki next year and he doesn't know when he will have a championship winning machine from the factory to offer a potential champ. He is running a small team and he has to keep a balance and achieve what they are able to as a team. Signing Spies would have unbalanced the team and perhaps they would have faired worse.
To exaggerate to make my point: Would you hire Micheal Jordan on a college team and expect to win just because he was on the team? No way are you going to win. In fact, you are going to destroy the team by putting an overachiever in a situation that he is guarantied to be unhappy with and it will destroy any chances you have to win at all because the team dynamic will implode. It isn't Yamaha or Honda where they can afford to deal with the team in a top down approach with the rider calling all the shots. They have what they have. That is the reality that Denning is well aware of. Perhaps you should look back at the team before he came and comment on that. Don't be so pissed for Spies. He is running probably the most advanced machine in the WSBK paddock and he has all his future doors wide open.
Gfan, I really like your post. I think you made the best case for Suzuki not signing Spies; though I disagree with a few points you make.
First, about Paul Denning. I think the man revealed a bit of his character and foolish pride when he voice his displeasure when he could not convince Spies to take a rushed and un-necessary risk at Assen. I think he took this issue personal and at that point Spies’ fate was sealed with this team. I think Denning felt that he couldn’t wield his power over Spies, and this became an issue of ego rather than discerning talent. For this reason, I think Denning is stupid. (Get my point?)
Second, I disagree that it would disrupt the team in the way you think, that is negatively. I think this team does need some ‘disruption’ as in a kick in the .... It needs to wake up to its potential. When you sign an eager, demanding, and talented you man, it does ruffle feathers, but in this case, I think this is what is needed—a shake up. Complacency in believing you are working within the perceived parameters is the enemy here. They need to do more with what they got, and in this way demand more as improvements are made. I can’t remember who said it here, but you allude to what I read somebody say; in that spirit, you wouldn’t put wood slippers on a supermodel. Well by the same token, you’re gonna try to get those diamond slippers if she asks you out on a date, wouldn’t you?
Third, those two regulars where signed before the single-tire rule was known. I don’t think this had anything to do with their decision.
To exaggerate to make my point: Would you hire Micheal Jordan on a college team and expect to win just because he was on the team? No way are you going to win. In fact, you are going to destroy the team by putting an overachiever in a situation that he is guarantied to be unhappy with and it will destroy any chances you have to win at all because the team dynamic will implode. It isn't Yamaha or Honda where they can afford to deal with the team in a top down approach with the rider calling all the shots. They have what they have. That is the reality that Denning is well aware of. Perhaps you should look back at the team before he came and comment on that. Don't be so pissed for Spies. He is running probably the most advanced machine in the WSBK paddock and he has all his future doors wide open.
Gfan, I really like your post. I think you made the best case for Suzuki not signing Spies; though I disagree with a few points you make.
First, about Paul Denning. I think the man revealed a bit of his character and foolish pride when he voice his displeasure when he could not convince Spies to take a rushed and un-necessary risk at Assen. I think he took this issue personal and at that point Spies’ fate was sealed with this team. I think Denning felt that he couldn’t wield his power over Spies, and this became an issue of ego rather than discerning talent. For this reason, I think Denning is stupid. (Get my point?)
Second, I disagree that it would disrupt the team in the way you think, that is negatively. I think this team does need some ‘disruption’ as in a kick in the .... It needs to wake up to its potential. When you sign an eager, demanding, and talented you man, it does ruffle feathers, but in this case, I think this is what is needed—a shake up. Complacency in believing you are working within the perceived parameters is the enemy here. They need to do more with what they got, and in this way demand more as improvements are made. I can’t remember who said it here, but you allude to what I read somebody say; in that spirit, you wouldn’t put wood slippers on a supermodel. Well by the same token, you’re gonna try to get those diamond slippers if she asks you out on a date, wouldn’t you?
Third, those two regulars where signed before the single-tire rule was known. I don’t think this had anything to do with their decision.
i am going to let the results of 2009 decide wether denning made a good call or not.
until then, this is for you jumkie....
until then, this is for you jumkie....
Similar threads
