Skeptical of the Alien Overlord

kurre · Nov 28, 2015

It's not a real surprise to me that the events at the end of this season are still being so thoroughly discussed. Tempers seem to have cooled down slightly but a lot of people are still riled up.

I suppose as a new member to this forum, I may have to give my opinion about the Rossi/Marquez clash just so that people here know where I stand on the issue if not to try and persuade people to side with me. One's opinion on that issue seems to be a newly evolved litmus test of sorts with MotoGP fans, so I'll briefly state my opinion and get to the point.

Before Rossi announced in the press conference that he thought Marquez was trying to help Lorenzo win, that concept had never crossed my mind. I think if Marquez did ever have any such inclination, it started when Rossi called him out in public like that. I don't think Rossi lost because of any cheating or controversy. I think he lost the season for himself when he ran Marquez off the line in Sepang. Even if I were to side with the fans who say that there was a Spanish conspiracy, that Dorna had a hand in Rossi's loss, that the penalty was unfair, etc. etc. etc., I think that Rossi could have avoided all of that by simply keeping his head in Sepang. If he had even let Marquez pass him and just finished behind him, he would have been eligible to qualify at the front in the last race in Valencia and he could have ended the season with more points. That's all.

Now after that long-winded qualification, I'll get to the point. I've been toying with the idea that the reason behind Rossi fans fuming so vehemently about 2015's results are that they maybe recognize that this was Rossi's last chance. I'm not saying I want Rossi to fade away or that I'll dance on his grave if he retires, but if I'm honest, I don't think he can win a championship after this season. I feel like he's lost what he had in the past. Specifically, I think he lost it years ago after his failed Ducati experiment caused people to doubt his superhuman abilities and recognize Yamaha's significant role in his recent successes. It may be arrogant of me to say something like that about a guy like Rossi because, who am I anyways, right? But if I'm honest, I'd bet on Pedrosa winning the championship before I'd bet on Rossi.

Does anybody here actually think he's going to win another championship?

SlartyBartFast · Nov 28, 2015

I don't think he can win another unless he receives advantages from the powers that be. After all, we just witnessed what they are capable of, so don't be too surprised if he miraculously pulls it off.

povol · Nov 28, 2015

kurre said:
It's not a real surprise to me that the events at the end of this season are still being so thoroughly discussed. Tempers seem to have cooled down slightly but a lot of people are still riled up.

I suppose as a new member to this forum, I may have to give my opinion about the Rossi/Marquez clash just so that people here know where I stand on the issue if not to try and persuade people to side with me. One's opinion on that issue seems to be a newly evolved litmus test of sorts with MotoGP fans, so I'll briefly state my opinion and get to the point.

Before Rossi announced in the press conference that he thought Marquez was trying to help Lorenzo win, that concept had never crossed my mind. I think if Marquez did ever have any such inclination, it started when Rossi called him out in public like that. I don't think Rossi lost because of any cheating or controversy. I think he lost the season for himself when he ran Marquez off the line in Sepang. Even if I were to side with the fans who say that there was a Spanish conspiracy, that Dorna had a hand in Rossi's loss, that the penalty was unfair, etc. etc. etc., I think that Rossi could have avoided all of that by simply keeping his head in Sepang. If he had even let Marquez pass him and just finished behind him, he would have been eligible to qualify at the front in the last race in Valencia and he could have ended the season with more points. That's all.

Now after that long-winded qualification, I'll get to the point. I've been toying with the idea that the reason behind Rossi fans fuming so vehemently about 2015's results are that they maybe recognize that this was Rossi's last chance. I'm not saying I want Rossi to fade away or that I'll dance on his grave if he retires, but if I'm honest, I don't think he can win a championship after this season. I feel like he's lost what he had in the past. Specifically, I think he lost it years ago after his failed Ducati experiment caused people to doubt his superhuman abilities and recognize Yamaha's significant role in his recent successes. It may be arrogant of me to say something like that about a guy like Rossi because, who am I anyways, right? But if I'm honest, I'd bet on Pedrosa winning the championship before I'd bet on Rossi.

Does anybody here actually think he's going to win another championship?

Agree with most of what you said, but the truth is, Rossi was never qualifying or finishing higher than 4 th at Valencia unless something happened to JL,MM, or DP. In fact, he qualified 12th after crashing in q2 but at no time during the weekend did he show the ability to run with those three.

bh84 · Nov 28, 2015

Rossi has proved many times he's capable of doing things on a motorcycle that boggle the mind. At 37, I'm cautiously optimistic that he can pull off another title, but its certainly a long shot

povol · Nov 28, 2015

bh84 said:
Rossi has proved many times he's capable of doing things on a motorcycle that boggle the mind. At 37, I'm cautiously optimistic that he can pull off another title, but its certainly a long shot

I guess nothings impossible, but i wouldnt put much money on it if i were you.The odds of all 3 riders having as many issues in another year as they did this year allowing Rossi to carry a points lead up until the last race are astronomical

JPSLotus · Nov 28, 2015

Rossi was done in 2010.

The only bikes worth riding on the grid are the factory Honda and factory Yamaha. If you get one of those, you will finish in the top 4 every year.

I think people have listened to Nick Harris fawning over VR for too many years that they can't see him for what he is, a rider who's decline was staved off by getting back onto one of the two best bikes on the grid.

michaelm · Nov 28, 2015

JPSLotus said:
Rossi was done in 2010.

The only bikes worth riding on the grid are the factory Honda and factory Yamaha. If you get one of those, you will finish in the top 4 every year.

I think people have listened to Nick Harris fawning over VR for too many years that they can't see him for what he is, a rider who's decline was staved off by getting back onto one of the two best bikes on the grid.

VR was very good this year, and had the pace on Lorenzo in the wet and in several early season dry races which suited the tyre he preferred. If he had won the championship this year because of those things, it would have been well deserved, the conditions and tyres available were the same for all the contenders.

However, his pace in the late season races is more reflective of where he currently sits in normal conditions with his opponents all healthy imo, and it seems unlikely that the circumstances which favoured him (fairly) this year will be repeated next season as has been said, in terms of all 3 of an unusual number of wet races, Dani Pedrosa being hors de combat, or the Honda not suiting MM and him throwing it down the road so frequently; the latter will be a problem for all riders other than MM, I think he has learned to ride smarter and Honda will go all out on their bike.

JPSLotus · Nov 28, 2015

michaelm said:
VR was very good this year, and had the pace on Lorenzo in the wet and in several early season dry races which suited the tyre he preferred. If he had won the championship this year because of those things, it would have been well deserved, the conditions and tyres available were the same for all the contenders.

However, his pace in the late season races is more reflective of where he currently sits in normal conditions with his opponents all healthy imo, and it seems unlikely that the circumstances which favoured him (fairly) this year will be repeated next season as has been said, in terms of all 3 of an unusual number of wet races, Dani Pedrosa being hors de combat, or the Honda not suiting MM and him throwing it down the road so frequently; the latter will be a problem for all riders other than MM, I think he has learned to ride smarter and Honda will go all out on their bike.

I'd argue that anyone would have looked as good as, if not better than VR on that M1.

Bike flatters him big time.

He got the perfect storm in the first half, but the second half, he could not sustain it because the other three shook off their early season woes. The wet weather has always been a great equalizer regardless of age, as pure speed doesn't factor in quite as much.

Here's what people should really be asking, why does a mid-30s rider get one of the best bikes on the grid when no other aging rider has ever managed to get this gift? If Nicky Hayden got a factory RCV this season, he'd have been in the title hunt.

Rafa · Nov 28, 2015

JPSLotus said:
I'd argue that anyone would have looked as good as, if not better than VR on that M1.

Bike flatters him big time.

He got the perfect storm in the first half, but the second half, he could not sustain it because the other three shook off their early season woes. The wet weather has always been a great equalizer regardless of age, as pure speed doesn't factor in quite as much.

Here's what people should really be asking, why does a mid-30s rider get one of the best bikes on the grid when no other aging rider has ever managed to get this gift? If Nicky Hayden got a factory RCV this season, he'd have been in the title hunt.

Nicky Hayden on factory RCV would have been in the hunt for the title? Seriously no. He was given full factory treatment for like 7 years after his 2006 win. He had talent but I believe more aggressive and talented came along.

Rafa · Nov 28, 2015

Rafa said:
Nicky Hayden on factory RCV would have been in the hunt for the title? Seriously no. He was given full factory treatment for like 7 years after his 2006 win. He had talent but I believe more aggressive and talented came along.

Unless the statement was supposed to be hyperbole

kurre · Nov 29, 2015

I would have liked to see Hayden on a factory Honda battling at the front, but I'm not sure that would have been possible. Look at the 2007 season where Hayden was still on the Honda but had one of the worst, if not the worst title defense season in MotoGP history. Hayden was a good guy, but if I started to become less of a Hayden fan when he was on the Ducati. He'd finish a race in 4th place, which for him was amazing in all honesty. Then during the post-race press conferences he'd always say things about how disappointed he was because he needs to be on the podium. That seemed to be a sort of subtle advertisement of himself, constantly implying that he was capable of winning racing by saying he was unhappy with 4th. He should have said, "Hell yeah I'm happy to be in 4th! Have you seen my results in the last few years?"

In reality, discussing who is the "best" and who is the "worst" is really relative. I think if there was a grid of 26 bikes with 13 factory Yamahas and 13 factory Hondas, it would make for a lot more interesting races than we see now.

These last few weeks have been the strangest few weeks as a MotoGP fan than I can remember in many years....maybe ever. I don't personally hate Rossi, but I wouldn't call myself a fan either, mostly because the people who are fans have told me where I can stick it about 100 times in the last few weeks just for suggesting hew as capable of doing anything wrong, ever. There's been a big line drawn in the sand, and you're either "for Rossi" or "against him," and logic and reason have been thrown out the window. I don't mean to harp on an old subject or beat a dead horse or whatever, but I'm under the impression that this event and your opinion about it will effect future discussions in the next few seasons about any issue.

JPSLotus · Nov 29, 2015

Rafa said:
Nicky Hayden on factory RCV would have been in the hunt for the title? Seriously no. He was given full factory treatment for like 7 years after his 2006 win. He had talent but I believe more aggressive and talented came along.

You'd seriously be underestimating how good the factory bikes are.

Ducati does not fall into that so he was only on THE factory bikes for 3 years after 2006.

Rafa · Nov 29, 2015

JPSLotus said:
You'd seriously be underestimating how good the factory bikes are.

Ducati does not fall into that so he was only on THE factory bikes for 3 years after 2006.

Not denying a full factory team is a lot better in a full race (qualifying can throw these established factory teams sometimes with new factory/satellite teams securing front grid or two rows sometimes). However, 2 years on a factory Honda is too long a period for anyone to prove his mettle (Dani performed well and was 2nd and 3rd overall in 07-08 while Hayden was 8th and 6th respectively). Hayden has talent, no denying that, but he could not hang in there with the new crop like Lorenzo, Dani and Casey while Rossi adopted himself quite well (though Rossi's Ducati stint was the worst and could have seen him on a satellite bike if Ezpeleta had not brokered his Yamaha factory deal-it would have been difficult for 46 to score as well as he did)

JPSLotus · Nov 29, 2015

kurre said:
I would have liked to see Hayden on a factory Honda battling at the front, but I'm not sure that would have been possible. Look at the 2007 season where Hayden was still on the Honda but had one of the worst, if not the worst title defense season in MotoGP history. Hayden was a good guy, but if I started to become less of a Hayden fan when he was on the Ducati. He'd finish a race in 4th place, which for him was amazing in all honesty. Then during the post-race press conferences he'd always say things about how disappointed he was because he needs to be on the podium. That seemed to be a sort of subtle advertisement of himself, constantly implying that he was capable of winning racing by saying he was unhappy with 4th. He should have said, "Hell yeah I'm happy to be in 4th! Have you seen my results in the last few years?"

In reality, discussing who is the "best" and who is the "worst" is really relative. I think if there was a grid of 26 bikes with 13 factory Yamahas and 13 factory Hondas, it would make for a lot more interesting races than we see now.

These last few weeks have been the strangest few weeks as a MotoGP fan than I can remember in many years....maybe ever. I don't personally hate Rossi, but I wouldn't call myself a fan either, mostly because the people who are fans have told me where I can stick it about 100 times in the last few weeks just for suggesting hew as capable of doing anything wrong, ever. There's been a big line drawn in the sand, and you're either "for Rossi" or "against him," and logic and reason have been thrown out the window. I don't mean to harp on an old subject or beat a dead horse or whatever, but I'm under the impression that this event and your opinion about it will effect future discussions in the next few seasons about any issue.

Had Rossi won in 2006, then he would have had the worst title defense in history. Point being that, no one was going to defend the title successfully against Stoner that year. He was untouchable in 2007, and there was no shame in not being able to put up much of a fight against a guy who was the most talented MotoGP rider of the last 20 years.

JPSLotus · Nov 29, 2015

Rafa said:
Not denying a full factory team is a lot better in a full race (qualifying can throw these established factory teams sometimes with new factory/satellite teams securing front grid or two rows sometimes). However, 2 years on a factory Honda is too long a period for anyone to prove his mettle (Dani performed well and was 2nd and 3rd overall in 07-08 while Hayden was 8th and 6th respectively). Hayden has talent, no denying that, but he could not hang in there with the new crop like Lorenzo, Dani and Casey while Rossi adopted himself quite well (though Rossi's Ducati stint was the worst and could have seen him on a satellite bike if Ezpeleta had not brokered his Yamaha factory deal-it would have been difficult for 46 to score as well as he did)

Okay, and the point still remains that being on the factory RCV or M1 puts you automatically in the top 4 for the season points standings.

Rafa · Nov 29, 2015

JPSLotus said:
Okay, and the point still remains that being on the factory RCV or M1 puts you automatically in the top 4 for the season points standings.

Let's see how it pans out in 2016 with standard ECU and Michelin tyres. I think these will act as an equalizer in some measure.

paparazzo · Nov 29, 2015

JPSLotus said:
Here's what people should really be asking, why does a mid-30s rider get one of the best bikes on the grid when no other aging rider has ever managed to get this gift? If Nicky Hayden got a factory RCV this season, he'd have been in the title hunt.

You are effin joking right? That hayseed has been on enough race winning factory machines and he has one fluke title to show for it. He has 3, THREE damn wins in motoGP. Yet this forum will have you believe he's some sort of riding god. Putting him in the same sentence as Valentino Rossi tells me you are totally delusional, not rational and can not be reasoned with.

paparazzo · Nov 29, 2015

JPSLotus said:
You'd seriously be underestimating how good the factory bikes are.

Ducati does not fall into that so he was only on THE factory bikes for 3 years after 2006.

It must be some sort of feat to able to stuff your face with a bunch of testicles belonging to Casey and Nicky. So when Nicky the hayseed under performs, it's the Ducati that's the problem, but when Rossi didn't win, it was 'well Casey won on that bike' and because Rossi is a poor rider? GTFO!

kurre · Nov 29, 2015

JPSLotus said:
Had Rossi won in 2006, then he would have had the worst title defense in history. Point being that, no one was going to defend the title successfully against Stoner that year. He was untouchable in 2007, and there was no shame in not being able to put up much of a fight against a guy who was the most talented MotoGP rider of the last 20 years.

Not to belabor the point, but I think Hayden literally did have the worst title defense in MotoGP history in 2007. I wasn't using hyperbole. I'm pretty sure that's statistically true. I remember reading that on one of those lists of random facts on the motoGP.com website written by Dr. Martin Rains (or however you spell his name). I haven't checked but I think he had just over 100 points that season.

Dr No · Nov 29, 2015

paparazzo said:
You are effin joking right? That hayseed has been on enough race winning factory machines and he has one fluke title to show for it. He has 3, THREE damn wins in motoGP. Yet this forum will have you believe he's some sort of riding god. Putting him in the same sentence as Valentino Rossi tells me you are totally delusional, not rational and can not be reasoned with.

Fluke title?
No such thing.

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