Silverstone Race: Spoilers!
- Thread starter Keshav
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Arrabbiata1
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Returning to Jum's discussion about the best bike this season. I think unquestionably last year it was the Honda. They perfected the seamless shift and made it their own as only HRC could and the bike was completely in harmony with the tyres - watching Casey was highly reminiscent of Vale on the V5 - most of the time he was riding with so much in reserve and the bike would do exactly what he wanted it to do. This year there clearly is a problem with the aggressive power linked to the demise of the stiffer carcass tyre around which the bike was developed. If you watched the frame by frame footage shown by the BBC this weekend you can see the chatter afflicting the factory Hondas is utterly horrendous and coupled with the tyre degradation a well dialled in M1 would be on every riders wish list - Dovi can't believe what he's inherited stepping off the Honda. I caught the end of someone from Repsol Honda guesting in the British Eusrosport Commentary box during qualifying - it sounded like Suppo. He said that they had been shafted by the change in the Bridgestone's this year and that the entire evolution of the bike had been derailed. He also said that this is what they'd been given so no use complaining - they would have to make the best of a bad situation and that Casey's attitude was that he'd simply learn how to ride the bike with the new tyre and adapt his style if necessary whilst Pedrosa was more unsettled an that side of the garage was the main thrust behind the protestations.
Watching the M1 in comparison to the Honda's last weekend you could have spotted the difference in handling overhead in the International space station. Jorge can plant that bike where he wants it. Both Dani and Casey were visibly struggling for grip towards the last quarter of the race, Jorge was not. Rider difference? - look not at Repsol Honda, rather no further than at his teammate on the same bike.
There is so little separating Stoner and Lorenzo. Casey is ultra talented and fast as ...., Jorge is Mr.Smooth and Captain Consistency - very much a differently faceted talent, but in every sense as formidable.
The way Lorenzo is riding this year has many parallels with Max in 'Supers. Jorge's lines - particularly at Silverstone and at Catalunya were wide sweeping and 250-esque. Both have their elbows tucked in at one with the bike - throttle pinned, but with the increased torque able to throw in a variety of lines. Lorenzo and Biaggi have successfully exported/retained the best elements of their 250 pedigree, which is maintaining the flow - Astonishingly - Lorenzo during the course of a race has an average 1% deviation on his lap time.
I generally tend to be aware of riders before they join the GP circus - particularly the Brits. I've been banging on ad-nauseum about Cal on this forum since I joined over four years ago having followed him since the R6 cup. I first saw Stoner race in the British 125 championship in 2001 and then Wild Card ant a wet Doni in the same year in the 125 GP - (always brings a wry smile to my face because I know that 90% of the so called 'neo-bops' on here would have been completely impervious to his existence at that stage - BM included). The exception was Redding, who caught me completely unawares when he emerged as a seemingly complete unknown at Qatar in 2008. I remember he rode like a young Valentino - wide sweeping lines, and very very fast. Still does. Right now I'm imagining him on an M1.
Taking nothing away from Jorge - he's clean, composed and mentally strong. Unlike Rog and Pete I wasn't a fan in his 125 and 250 days because he was far too hot headed and erratic. As I've said many times shedding Amatriain seemed to coincide with his coming of age and with his graduation to a Moto GP bike lie seemed to consign his recklessness to his two stroke days - the liability was left behind...personally I think we were beginning to see the same realisation/epiphany in Sic.
Sorry Jum, the M1 is unquestionably the weapon of choice this year, the executioners tool...but perhaps chiefly in the hands of Jorge who knows exactly how to wield and sharpen it.
Crutchlow? This sport is replete with hard fuckers and legendary rides. I remember Melandri similarly mashing his ankle at Laguna after coming together with Kurtis Roberts in a nasty incident at turn 4 - racing the next day and getting on the rostrum to claim the Ducati ride the next season....(be careful what you wish for....). So many stories about the likes of Doohan - ( a new one regaled to me last weekend by Pete that I'd never heard), Schwantz, Gardner; Bayliss - both the crushed nut and pinkie incident at Coppice, but also his bust collarbone at Brands in practice which didn't prevent him form winning one of the races that weekend; Foggy at Sugo being high sided into the troposphere one year and then going out and winning race two, to Gary McCoy - who literally had a screw loose...in one of the pins in his leg and every time he weighted the peg it threatened to puncture the flesh from the inside. I remember Barros practically a cripple from two accidents at Suzuka being lifted by his crew onto the savage pre-Rossi M1 for the race - forget the Ducati, that ....... screamer was intent on ....... up whoever was foolhardy enough to presume to tame it (the damn thing was tested by Kocinski - small wonder it had issues). The list goes on. Or does it? All things considered...
That was one .... of a gutsy ride kid!!!! Forget the footie, yeah, it's one of those rare moments I'm proud to be a Brit. Stand aside immediately Mr.Spies, and Scotty - you deserve Cal's vacated seat.
Rog...I'm afraid Pov may have a point. Vale is indeed cruising and it's a painful sight to behold.
Watching the M1 in comparison to the Honda's last weekend you could have spotted the difference in handling overhead in the International space station. Jorge can plant that bike where he wants it. Both Dani and Casey were visibly struggling for grip towards the last quarter of the race, Jorge was not. Rider difference? - look not at Repsol Honda, rather no further than at his teammate on the same bike.
There is so little separating Stoner and Lorenzo. Casey is ultra talented and fast as ...., Jorge is Mr.Smooth and Captain Consistency - very much a differently faceted talent, but in every sense as formidable.
The way Lorenzo is riding this year has many parallels with Max in 'Supers. Jorge's lines - particularly at Silverstone and at Catalunya were wide sweeping and 250-esque. Both have their elbows tucked in at one with the bike - throttle pinned, but with the increased torque able to throw in a variety of lines. Lorenzo and Biaggi have successfully exported/retained the best elements of their 250 pedigree, which is maintaining the flow - Astonishingly - Lorenzo during the course of a race has an average 1% deviation on his lap time.
I generally tend to be aware of riders before they join the GP circus - particularly the Brits. I've been banging on ad-nauseum about Cal on this forum since I joined over four years ago having followed him since the R6 cup. I first saw Stoner race in the British 125 championship in 2001 and then Wild Card ant a wet Doni in the same year in the 125 GP - (always brings a wry smile to my face because I know that 90% of the so called 'neo-bops' on here would have been completely impervious to his existence at that stage - BM included). The exception was Redding, who caught me completely unawares when he emerged as a seemingly complete unknown at Qatar in 2008. I remember he rode like a young Valentino - wide sweeping lines, and very very fast. Still does. Right now I'm imagining him on an M1.
Taking nothing away from Jorge - he's clean, composed and mentally strong. Unlike Rog and Pete I wasn't a fan in his 125 and 250 days because he was far too hot headed and erratic. As I've said many times shedding Amatriain seemed to coincide with his coming of age and with his graduation to a Moto GP bike lie seemed to consign his recklessness to his two stroke days - the liability was left behind...personally I think we were beginning to see the same realisation/epiphany in Sic.
Sorry Jum, the M1 is unquestionably the weapon of choice this year, the executioners tool...but perhaps chiefly in the hands of Jorge who knows exactly how to wield and sharpen it.
Crutchlow? This sport is replete with hard fuckers and legendary rides. I remember Melandri similarly mashing his ankle at Laguna after coming together with Kurtis Roberts in a nasty incident at turn 4 - racing the next day and getting on the rostrum to claim the Ducati ride the next season....(be careful what you wish for....). So many stories about the likes of Doohan - ( a new one regaled to me last weekend by Pete that I'd never heard), Schwantz, Gardner; Bayliss - both the crushed nut and pinkie incident at Coppice, but also his bust collarbone at Brands in practice which didn't prevent him form winning one of the races that weekend; Foggy at Sugo being high sided into the troposphere one year and then going out and winning race two, to Gary McCoy - who literally had a screw loose...in one of the pins in his leg and every time he weighted the peg it threatened to puncture the flesh from the inside. I remember Barros practically a cripple from two accidents at Suzuka being lifted by his crew onto the savage pre-Rossi M1 for the race - forget the Ducati, that ....... screamer was intent on ....... up whoever was foolhardy enough to presume to tame it (the damn thing was tested by Kocinski - small wonder it had issues). The list goes on. Or does it? All things considered...
That was one .... of a gutsy ride kid!!!! Forget the footie, yeah, it's one of those rare moments I'm proud to be a Brit. Stand aside immediately Mr.Spies, and Scotty - you deserve Cal's vacated seat.
Rog...I'm afraid Pov may have a point. Vale is indeed cruising and it's a painful sight to behold.
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Just to pick up on a couple of points in your post.
The BBC slow mo showed spies bike suffering more chatter than stoners. Your point about Rossi maybe refuted due to the amount of crashes and running wide he is experiencing. This doesn't happen if your not pushing, lil red said it looked like the bike was trying to kill him all weekend !
I didn't say that !
plus he hasn't won it yet but leading at the end of the ground wars normally shows where its heading.
No you didn't
But you did say that Stoner was losing the championship ................. ergo that it is being lost rather than won.
See how easy and how much fun playing pedantics can be
Fact for me, we have the two best riders of the moment head and shoulders above the remaining field. At the moment a case may (emphasis for Jumkie here - MAY) be made that the Honda is having a level of issue with either chatter or the tyres that are affecting Stoner's capability to compete with Lorenzo. But, that all said in 2011 we saw Lorenzo more than competitive with Stoner and Team Honda whilst on a bike that was not quite there, Lorenzo being the difference.
This year I feel that we are saeeing a reverse type role but with Stoner and Team Honda unable to raise their game to compete thus far as the brilliance from Lorenzo is just that good.
IMO, Lorenzo is excellent to watch and for those that don't get just how good he is then maybe they need to find another means to enjoy teh sport
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Not so. There are numerous reasons why a rider might crash, including but not limited to: poor set-up, not enough heat in the tires, having a ...... bike, unrecognized issues with the track surface etc etc etc..
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Yes these can be reasons as we all know .Maybe im bias on this issue but i refuse to accept Rossi is not trying and his crashes are solely due to reasons you have stated above. Yes it maybe set up due to trying out things to get the bike to work, but he is still pushing it with whatever set up. He will never get the answers if he didn't.
Arrabbiata1
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It was - as it did to a lesser extent Casey and any other previous incumbent - including currently Nicky and Hector. In fact to my eyes Barbera's bike looked the most worrying. The best gauge was watching through Woodcote and Nicky's bike in comparison to Valentino's was like a puppy on a lead. My point was in respect of the race, and quite frankly if Stoner was still on that bike and put in a similar performance the majority of this forum would have a field day. Valentino told Ducati that in the dry the bike is currently good for seventh. He's no fool - there's plenty more in him than he's prepared to give, we all know that...why should he? Ducati aren't about to book a couch for him at the resident sports psychologist as they did Melandri or sack him like Bayliss. Far from getting his cards, in many ways I believe Valentino still holds many of the cards.
Regarding the Spies footage, you're right that the chatter shown was perhaps the worse I think I can recall ever seeing. But that was filmed at Qatar - at the start of the season - I think you'd struggle to find similar footage of Jorge's bike oscillating like a jackhammer. That side of the garage is completely sorted and I don't think that the problem is that prevalent on the M1 as it is on the factory Honda's. Further, I think Spies problems are exacerbated by a lack of confidence in his crew following a flurry of conspicuous .... ups. Actually, Spies bike certainly looked pretty well behaved this weekend in a all sessions and the race. I think Migs is right - he went too early and fried his tyres prematurely. Any wide lines unlike the Ducati or even the factory Honda's were induced by the rider not the bike - Spies' race brain is currently upsetting the equation, Jorge and the M1 are the perfect package right now.
I rate Ben...highly, this is not the end - but for ..... sake, right now - Cal want's a go.
Worryingly - word is, he was very critical of Yamaha after the crash in Saturday warm up and said a few things that he shouldn't which upset the top brass. One hopes that Sunday may have gone a long way to ameliorating any damage to his career.
Arrabbiata1
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Agree with that
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Great post. +10
If I may comment on your evaluation of Jorge and Casey... They might look close now, but the difference is that Lorenzo seems to depends a lot on his perfect M1, handling, electronics and all, for performing at that level. Stoner has demonstrated that he can not only be "fast as ....", but he can be equally fast on very different (and difficult) bikes, and that's a level of sheer talent that I doubt Lorenzo (or anybody else) has.
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i had forgotten about that wheelie. Looks like BM backing in using the shut down throttle body position only method !
And I feel good about that cos you have absolutely no idea Reg.
The problem is that I am a "know it all", well according to you guys, and I actually have to agree that's almost right .......... which is miles better than you "know .... alls"
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agreed j4rno, but we have to keep in mind that we can't deny lorenzo having that ability in him just because he has been on the m1 since 2008.
i'm not sure why people keep insisting the 2011 honda was so much better than the yamaha.not only lorenzo but spies was able to win on that bike.
i'm not saying the yamaha was on par,let alone better (IMO +10 hp and it would have been fine, hondas have always been good and shooting and yamahas at mid corner speed), but the impression that honda was superior comes form the fact that they had twice as many factory riders as yamaha.
i'm not sure why people keep insisting the 2011 honda was so much better than the yamaha.not only lorenzo but spies was able to win on that bike.
i'm not saying the yamaha was on par,let alone better (IMO +10 hp and it would have been fine, hondas have always been good and shooting and yamahas at mid corner speed), but the impression that honda was superior comes form the fact that they had twice as many factory riders as yamaha.
As I said I won't ask you to define irony; I will give you a clue, it does involve insight.
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Looking at Lorenzo's 250-like style, it seems improbable he could export that riding style to the Honda with the same success, leave alone the Ducati.
At the time of the 500s the common wisdom was that if you tried to ride a 500 like a 250 you were immediately very fast, but then you inevitably crashed. Same thing still applied to the 990s and the early 800s and it was graphically demonstrated by Lorenzo himself with his speed in his very first MotoGP races, and spectacular highsides.
The electronics have changed that. Dovi is another rider who rides (and can ride only) in 250 style, and I think he could replicate what Lorenzo does on the factory Yamaha. But he could never do what Stoner does on a Honda.
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i agree with what you're saying, my point is just that with lorenzos obvious immense talent i wouldn't rule out him being able to change his style to also win on a honda.i rank stoner and him as the current best. what you say leads to reasonable doubt that lorenzo would be as fast,let alone faster than stoner on the honda (i'm not talking about ducati,that was a miracle in itself). but i also have my doubts that stoner would do as good on the yamaha as jorge, lorenzo rides the bike perfectly
