Should the likes of Checa get a penalty?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Apr 27 2008, 09:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>"Yes, I thought I would hit him, but desided to have a try anyway"
According to British Eursoport commentators Checa's own words.

Don't want to bring up the confusing "intent" up again but I guess that's as close as you get.


Hmm interesting that all the "racing incident" brigade havent jumped on that comment.

Pete

What did people make of Haga in race one? Deserving of a peanalty?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 27 2008, 06:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What did people make of Haga in race one? Deserving of a peanalty?
Did you watch the same race I did

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Apr 27 2008, 08:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>"Yes, I thought I would hit him, but desided to have a try anyway"
According to British Eursoport commentators Checa's own words.

Don't want to bring up the confusing "intent" up again but I guess that's as close as you get.
I'd imagine that was a mistranslation - just think of all the English idioms there are, which if translated directly into another language would lose the intent of the statement. He was apparently overheard, not by Burnicle or Whitham mind you, talking to a Spanish news crew. So it's been translated, possibly poorly, and is nth hand. Unless some Spanish speaker heard the original statement, it belongs in the land of "my mate heard that...".

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Apr 28 2008, 09:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Did you watch the same race I did

Haga went inside xaus and took them both down?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 28 2008, 09:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Haga went inside xaus and took them both down?
It looked like their bikes locked together - possibly footpeg interaction - and both went down. It didn't look like a wild move by Haga. Without a better angle, from the inside of the corner, hard to tell exactly what happened, so with the available information, no reason to call for Haga to be penalised.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Apr 28 2008, 11:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It looked like their bikes locked together - possibly footpeg interaction - and both went down. It didn't look like a wild move by Haga. Without a better angle, from the inside of the corner, hard to tell exactly what happened, so with the available information, no reason to call for Haga to be penalised.

Well you know where i stand on these "racing incident" things. But to many on here that believe a peanalty should be handed out if any rider causes another to be inconvenienced, i'd like to know what they would do about this one.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Apr 28 2008, 08:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It looked like their bikes locked together - possibly footpeg interaction - and both went down. It didn't look like a wild move by Haga. Without a better angle, from the inside of the corner, hard to tell exactly what happened, so with the available information, no reason to call for Haga to be penalised.
Exact reason why penalties are not forceable. The exact same incident may occur twice - one on video and the other not. Why should one be penalised and the other not penalised.

haga should recieve the same penalty as checa..... none. thats racing. hmmmm where are the penalty brigade?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 28 2008, 11:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well you know where i stand on these "racing incident" things. But to many on here that believe a peanalty should be handed out if any rider causes another to be inconvenienced, i'd like to know what they would do about this one.

Knocking another rider off isnt an "inconvenience" for ..... sake tom, sometimes folks get tangled up, sometimes someone gets divebombed. Dont be so bloody patronising.

There was an outcry on here when Pedrosa took out Hayden, not because of the risk of injury, but because it could have cost Hayboy the title! It's a hot topic this, and will always cause arguements, but anyone with half a brain knows that no two incidents are the same.

Checa admits that he thought he had a good chance of taking out Max, makes it look like a ...... stupid move to me. So don't try and take the attention off what was being discussed with Checa, which to me looked like a totally different scenario from Haga and Xaus.

Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Apr 28 2008, 07:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Knocking another rider off isnt an "inconvenience" for ..... sake tom, sometimes folks get tangled up, sometimes someone gets divebombed. Dont be so bloody patronising.

There was an outcry on here when Pedrosa took out Hayden, not because of the risk of injury, but because it could have cost Hayboy the title! It's a hot topic this, and will always cause arguements, but anyone with half a brain knows that no two incidents are the same.

Checa admits that he thought he had a good chance of taking out Max, makes it look like a ...... stupid move to me. So don't try and take the attention off what was being discussed with Checa, which to me looked like a totally different scenario from Haga and Xaus.

Pete

The reason why i ask about other incidents is that i too believe no two are the same. A few people in this topic have suggested that any incident when an innocent rider is taken out is worthy of peanlaty. Furthermore more than a few people on this forum cried out for peanlaties, and threw more than a tasteful amount of abuse at Martin Cardenas for a pass that depsite being scrappy, contained no contact, and had no significant ramifications.

Pete, you are completely right. Have you notice how the "racing incident" brigade has answered zero of my questions? I suspect because they have not the debating ground to stand on. Either way, one thing I've learned is that it’s worthless to debate Tom.

Frost my man, as far as comparing the two incidents or those saying there should be no penalties (Frost, Tom, Son, etc), then you boys believe that the reality of human character flaws cease to exist on the track (but amazingly exist in all other types of sport where refs make a determination to keep the contest safe and equitable). I suppose ALL racer are good intentioned and only are trying to win, regardless of tactics used--in an imaginary world.

As far as the Checa's comment, nice try in chalking it up to a "translation" issue Yaka, I respectfully disagree. His words were basically an admission of being a piece of .... who's disregard for fellow rider’s safety and right to compete in a field of professionals was of NO concern to him. This is amazing! The guy basically says, 'yeah I new I might taken him out, but .... him anyway'. That is the equivalent of a guy admitting/confessing being the thief in a robbery, but those on here on the "no penalty brigade" (frost, tom, son, and friends) say, who cares and cling to their views of NO regulation against outrageous and reckless conduct. He (Checa) admits this because he knows this is the predominant attitude in the sport, its accepted, encouraged, and condoned. He knew he would NOT be chastised, but rather supported and even applauded—good job, that’s just racing, .... everybody else. This to me is the most amazing part of this discussion. It seems no matter how egregious and distinct the offense is, you have the defenders, even when more information comes to light that it actually was a declared misdeed by the perpetrator.



SIDE NOTE: Once again, if you saw Martin Cardenas out of control this weekend, this type of rider has caused injury with no reprimand. Tom, you're concerned about him being “abused”, what about the abuse that riders go through from having a reckless out of control rider causing those in his wake to suffer through pain, medical intervention, and loss of championship hopes, and depriving the fans of actual contenders? Its dastardly that you would defend him from being “abused” (as if he reads this forum), but when a Black man ACTUALLY was “abused” and jeered, you say: “why all the fuss”? --this says alot about YOU (though you would like your opinions seperated from the person giving them). Well .... that. I call you on it, but then you go cry-foul, and say you have a right to your opinions. Well your opinions suck! Sure racist have a right to their opinions, but asking me to respect them and you will not happen.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Apr 28 2008, 10:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Pete, you are completely right. Have you notice how the "racing incident" brigade has answered zero of my questions? I suspect because they have not the debating ground to stand on. Either way, one thing I've learned is that it’s worthless to debate Tom.

Frost my man, as far as comparing the two incidents or those saying there should be no penalties (Frost, Tom, Son, etc), then you boys believe that the reality of human character flaws cease to exist on the track (but amazingly exist in all other types of sport where refs make a determination to keep the contest safe and equitable). I suppose ALL racer are good intentioned and only are trying to win, regardless of tactics used--in an imaginary world.

As far as the Checa's comment, nice try in chalking it up to a "translation" issue Yaka, I respectfully disagree. His words were basically an admission of being a piece of .... who's disregard for fellow rider’s safety and right to compete in a field of professionals was of NO concern to him. This is amazing! The guy basically says, 'yeah I new I might taken him out, but .... him anyway'. That is the equivalent of a guy admitting/confessing being the thief in a robbery, but those on here on the "no penalty brigade" (frost, tom, son, and friends) say, who cares and cling to their views of NO regulation against outrageous and reckless conduct. He (Checa) admits this because he knows this is the predominant attitude in the sport, its accepted, encouraged, and condoned. He knew he would NOT be chastised, but rather supported and even applauded—good job, that’s just racing, .... everybody else. This to me is the most amazing part of this discussion. It seems no matter how egregious and distinct the offense is, you have the defenders, even when more information comes to light that it actually was a declared misdeed by the perpetrator.



SIDE NOTE: Once again, if you saw Martin Cardenas out of control this weekend, this type of rider has caused injury with no reprimand. Tom, you're concerned about him being “abused”, what about the abuse that riders go through from having a reckless out of control rider causing those in his wake to suffer through pain, medical intervention, and loss of championship hopes, and depriving the fans of actual contenders? Its dastardly that you would defend him from being “abused” (as if he reads this forum), but when a Black man ACTUALLY was “abused” and jeered, you say: “why all the fuss”? --this says alot about YOU (though you would like your opinions seperated from the person giving them). Well .... that. I call you on it, but then you go cry-foul, and say you have a right to your opinions. Well your opinions suck! Sure racist have a right to their opinions, but asking me to respect them and you will not happen.


What I love about you Jumkie, when you shoot, you dont miss!

In all seriousness though, I agree wholeheartedly with your post. Personally, I felt vindicated when Checa admitted it was a dumb pass.

Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Apr 28 2008, 10:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'> Its dastardly that you would defend him from being “abused” (as if he reads this forum), but when a Black man ACTUALLY was “abused” and jeered, you say: “why all the fuss”? --this says alot about YOU

I think the abuse of Cardenas is un-called for, but i'm not an abusive person so i've never fallen in line with that way of thinking.

Does anyone have a link to what Checa said?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Son of Doohan @ Apr 28 2008, 11:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Does anyone have a link to what Checa said?


Yeah look up www.arseholethatwantsthescudnickname.com

or www.racingincidentsforjuniorengineers.com

or even www.thankfuckjumkieandpetehaveaclue.com



Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Apr 28 2008, 10:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Frost my man, as far as comparing the two incidents or those saying there should be no penalties (Frost, Tom, Son, etc), then you boys believe that the reality of human character flaws cease to exist on the track (but amazingly exist in all other types of sport where refs make a determination to keep the contest safe and equitable). I suppose ALL racer are good intentioned and only are trying to win, regardless of tactics used--in an imaginary world.

I don't know if you read the beggining of this topic but we spoke of the difficulties in decisions regarding on track incidents, such as the obvious and unavoidable use of discretion in each individual situation. What i put forward at the time is that increasing the strictness significantly (as many suggested was needed) would do nothing to eliminate this discretion and have large ramifications on the sport. I feel the balance of strictness used by the race stewards in the series' i watch is adequate, and have heard little to no reports from riders looking to increase the overall strictness due to safetey concerns.

How about -
www.everythingireadontheinternetforumisfuckingtrue.com