Should the likes of Checa get a penalty?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Apr 11 2008, 11:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What's the answer? .... knows, I'm just sayin I get ...... off when someone's stupidity causes ..... like this.

Pete

Nobody likes to see a rider suffer consequences from another riders mistake, but it does happen.

If a rider makes an error while trying to pass which knocks another rider down he should be peanalized because it is dangerous and irresponsible?

If a rider makes an error while not trying to pass and another rider is knocked down as a result is that different?

To take it further, What if the mistake isn't rider but a mechanical. Should teams be punished if a machine faliure causes an innocent rider to crash? (see Jerez 250 race)

In each case a risk has been taken where the consequences are suffered by an innocent party. If this was punnishable the result would forced safetey margins from teams and riders that would remove all excitement (i.e. close racing).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 12 2008, 12:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nobody likes to see a rider suffer consequences from another riders mistake, but it does happen.

If a rider makes an error while trying to pass which knocks another rider down he should be peanalized because it is dangerous and irresponsible?

If a rider makes an error while not trying to pass and another rider is knocked down as a result is that different?

To take it further, What if the mistake isn't rider but a mechanical. Should teams be punished if a machine faliure causes an innocent rider to crash? (see Jerez 250 race)

In each case a risk has been taken where the consequences are suffered by an innocent party. If this was punnishable the result would forced safetey margins from teams and riders that would remove all excitement (i.e. close racing).


If a rider goes for a move that's not going to happen, it's very different to someone falling off cause their bike siezed and then skittled off the guy next to him.

Yes there will always be cases where it's a grey area, but close racing does not equate to ...... stupidity Tom. How would you feel if your favourite rider was paralysed by someone going for a pass that would never stick? Racing incident? Close racing? The guys at the top of the tree should be able to race closely, but have total trust, a mistake is a mistake, an experienced rider being a .... isnt.

Nobody wants to see a procession, but, I don't want to see folks getting strechered off to the spinal unit cause someone wants to win in front of their home crowd. It's not about wanting to see racing become boring, it's actually remembering that there are people in these helmets.

Ive sat in intensive care with mate's cause somebody else thought that they could make it out of that junction, Ive been at funerals because the guy coming the other way "thought he could make that overtake" I love bikes, love bike racing, as I keep saying, Ive been riding a long time, and following racing a long time, but I hate people taking chances with other people's lives.

Bring on the hatemail, luckily, being the all knowing smug ....... I am, it will mean .... all to me.

Pete

I'm with the likes of Jumkie.

The likes of Checa SHOULD be penalized!

Besides the fact that was one of the worst racing moves in history, when you knock someone down doing something stupid, you should be banished to the back of the grid. Furthermore, if you're on the team whose rider is knocked down and you whine, you should be banished to the back as well.

Rubbing, punting people off track, and contact are all legit. Launching your bike in to the likes of Neukirschner means you get banished to the last row.

The only thing that makes governing body intervention so bad is the pomp and circumstance of the entire non-event. They act like someone is about to be hanged.

You hit someone, you go to the back. No biggie. No bitching. No crying to the media. To the back where you belong for 1 round (both races).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 12 2008, 12:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm with the likes of Jumkie.

The likes of Checa SHOULD be penalized!

Besides the fact that was one of the worst racing moves in history, when you knock someone down doing something stupid, you should be banished to the back of the grid. Furthermore, if you're on the team whose rider is knocked down and you whine, you should be banished to the back as well.

Rubbing, punting people off track, and contact are all legit. Launching your bike in to the likes of Neukirschner means you get banished to the last row.

The only thing that makes governing body intervention so bad is the pomp and circumstance of the entire non-event. They act like someone is about to be hanged.

You hit someone, you go to the back. No biggie. No bitching. No crying to the media. To the back where you belong for 1 round (both races).

I wont argue with that.

Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Apr 12 2008, 12:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If a rider goes for a move that's not going to happen, it's very different to someone falling off cause their bike siezed and then skittled off the guy next to him.

Its easy to say a move's not going to happen when you have seen it not work. I think that any overtake is a risk, as is normal racing conditions. Riders have to be able to trust each other because by riding on the track together they are putting themselfes in a position to suffer from their competitors mistakes. The trouble is where to draw a fair line between genuine mistake, legitimate atempt and irresponsibility. Should it be as simple as the riders can try what they want but if it doesn't work they are peanalized harshly? Would that make any difference anyway since none of the riders would make a move unless they believed it would work.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 12 2008, 12:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Its easy to say a move's not going to happen when you have seen it not work. I think that any overtake is a risk, as is normal racing conditions. Riders have to be able to trust each other because by riding on the track together they are putting themselfes in a position to suffer from their competitors mistakes. The trouble is where to draw a fair line between genuine mistake, legitimate atempt and irresponsibility. Should it be as simple as the riders can try what they want but if it doesn't work they are peanalized harshly? Would that make any difference anyway since none of the riders would make a move unless they believed it would work.


Two words Tom, "Red Mist"

If you are unsure, read Roadcraft, the bike cops bible.

Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Apr 12 2008, 12:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Two words Tom, "Red Mist"

How can race control work out who did and didnt have red mist, thats a HUGE judgement call and consistency would be impossible to achieve

It's too subjective. Who makes the decisions as to how and why a racing incident occurred? It get's dangerous because every little incident get's scrutinized way too much. Camera angles can be very deceiving, leading to false conclusions. And what about when an incident isn't caught on camera? What happens there? Do you go and ask the marshalls? The crowd?
Or just go by who's a more popular rider?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Son of Doohan @ Apr 12 2008, 01:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It's too subjective.

I agree. But what about the system in place at the moment? I don't believe they would let riders get away with anything they liked, so we must be relying on something equally subjective at the moment.

Yeah - I really don't know. Maybe if something really bad happened to Max then the laws would change. I still don't see how they can work penalties into the laws without some sort of bias coming through. I'm not per se against penalties I just know that there will be human mistakes making bad decisions which can change results.
I suppose if all the riders wanted a change then you could do it - but i really can't see that happening. Humans make mistakes - it's what makes us human. Everyone knows the risk. i really can't see anyone deliberately taking out another rider for any reason. At any sort of speed there's a chance to hurt yourself very badly on a bike. It's not like a car where you could just tap another car at a relatively low speed and cause them to crash without hurting the driver. If you hit another bike enough to deliberately take out another rider - more than likely you're going down the tarmac yourself, and that could hurt, very badly.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Son of Doohan @ Apr 12 2008, 01:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah - I really don't know. Maybe if something really bad happened to Max then the laws would change. I still don't see how they can work penalties into the laws without some sort of bias coming through. I'm not per se against penalties I just know that there will be human mistakes making bad decisions which can change results.
I suppose if all the riders wanted a change then you could do it - but i really can't see that happening. Humans make mistakes - it's what makes us human. Everyone knows the risk. i really can't see anyone deliberately taking out another rider for any reason. At any sort of speed there's a chance to hurt yourself very badly on a bike. It's not like a car where you could just tap another car at a relatively low speed and cause them to crash without hurting the driver. If you hit another bike enough to deliberately take out another rider - more than likely you're going down the tarmac yourself, and that could hurt, very badly.

Yes i don't think there are any riders making malicious passes in bike racing, its simply too much risk for everyone envolved. It must be much harder in car racing when people can take others out of the race on purpose.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 12 2008, 01:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>How can race control work out who did and didnt have red mist, thats a HUGE judgement call and consistency would be impossible to achieve


Tom, you obviously feel strongly that everything is rosey in the world. Far be it for me to burst your bubble. I was really beginning to think that there was more to you than being able to type Google and Motorbike Racing, but hey, what do I know. You are studying engineering, and can spell Google, how can I compete?

Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Apr 12 2008, 01:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Tom, you obviously feel strongly that everything is rosey in the world. Far be it for me to burst your bubble. I was really beginning to think that there was more to you than being able to type Google and Motorbike Racing, but hey, what do I know. You are studying engineering, and can spell Google, how can I compete?

Pete

I think you've got the wrong idea. I am far from sure where i stand on this issue, i'm just challanging all the ideas i can and trying to get input from others. Also see my posts after the one quoted above.

Peace

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 12 2008, 01:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think you've got the wrong idea. I am far from sure where i stand on this issue, i'm just challanging all the ideas i can and trying to get input from others. Also see my posts after the one quoted above.

Peace


Sorry, I'm not qualified to answer that, I only have a degree in music.

Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Apr 12 2008, 01:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sorry, I'm not qualified to answer that, I only have a degree in music.

Pete

There is no answer, all you need is an opinion

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Son of Doohan @ Apr 11 2008, 04:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It's too subjective. Who makes the decisions as to how and why a racing incident occurred? It get's dangerous because every little incident get's scrutinized way too much. Camera angles can be very deceiving, leading to false conclusions. And what about when an incident isn't caught on camera? What happens there? Do you go and ask the marshalls? The crowd?
Or just go by who's a more popular rider?

That's why you gotta keep it simple. If you use your bike intentionally or unintentionally as a missile and you knock someone off, you go to the back.

How many people's seasons could have been spared if they did that to DePuniet last year?!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 12 2008, 01:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>That's why you gotta keep it simple. If you use your bike intentionally or unintentionally as a missile and you knock someone off, you go to the back.

How many people's seasons could have been spared if they did that to DePuniet last year?!!

Potentially none. Will riders be more careful knowing that a mistake will lead to a peanalty? Is the loss of points and potentialy personal injury not enough already?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 12 2008, 10:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>That's why you gotta keep it simple. If you use your bike intentionally or unintentionally as a missile and you knock someone off, you go to the back.

How many people's seasons could have been spared if they did that to DePuniet last year?!!
I don't have a problem with that - the trouble starts though, when you have a domino effect of a number of riders getting knocked off and there's a grey area as to who started all the trouble. Simple rules can often lead to very complex solutions. It still comes down to subjectivity.
I can see it coming down to the last race of the season with nothing between the top 2 riders - one knocks the other off and a shitfight ensues over who's fault it was. Eventually it goes to the courts and there is no satisfactory resolution for months. The lawyers make truckloads of money and the fans are pissed off.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 11 2008, 04:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Potentially none. Will riders be more careful knowing that a mistake will lead to a peanalty? Is the loss of points and potentialy personal injury not enough already?

If threat of personal injury was deterrent enough, motorcycle racing wouldn't exist It is a well known fact that these racers will put their own health and the health of others at risk to win a championship. If they ruin a weekend's worth of work for someone else, they should be sent to the back.

What's the worst that could happen, they actually learn how to pass while they practice on lap traffic?

Not only that, they punishment is naturally progressive and adjusts for the severity (points/championship wise) of the incident. If you are a front runner who bashes people you suffer far worse than the midpack or the back markers.

I hate the governing body getting involved but it isn't usually that difficult to tell who is at fault in an accident. Like I say, you can punt and ram people off at your leisure but if you go down and turn your bike into a pilotless roadblock--To the back!

Examples:

OJ at Turkey in 2007 when he took out three people. RDP at Misano when he took out Pedrosa. KRJR at Sachsenring in 2006 when he lost the front and sent Tamada into the gravel. Pedrosa on Hayden at Estoril in 2006.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 12 2008, 03:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Examples:

OJ at Turkey in 2007 when he took out three people. RDP at Misano when he took out Pedrosa. KRJR at Sachsenring in 2006 when he lost the front and sent Tamada into the gravel. Pedrosa on Hayden at Estoril in 2006.

OK i can see where you are coming from, but i am still unsure how i feel about it as a concept. How about situations like Jerez 05? Or the calls of danger agaisnt Elias last year, or even egainst JT this year? Should they be acted on?