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Should the likes of Checa get a penalty?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 12 2008, 03:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>OK i can see where you are coming from, but i am still unsure how i feel about it as a concept. How about situations like Jerez 05? Or the calls of danger agaisnt Elias last year, or even egainst JT this year? Should they be acted on?

No. No one went down, and for the most part, you don't need to worry about riders taking a dive to get someone penalized.

If a decision can't be easily made, they should leave it alone and call it a "racing incident". When people are racing in a crowd at triple digits a few inches apart, that's the only thing you can call it.

But Checa on Neukirchner does not require a court of inquiry and it was not a racing incident.

I love tough racing. I love watching riders take one another out to the edge of the grass. I love watching them trade paint. I don't love watching someone ride over the limit and crash. Any amateur can do that, myself included.
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If you race like an amateur you can hang with the amateurs at the rear of the pack.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 12 2008, 05:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>No. No one went down, and for the most part, you don't need to worry about riders taking a dive to get someone penalized.

If a decision can't be easily made, they should leave it alone and call it a "racing incident". When people are racing in a crowd at triple digits a few inches apart, that's the only thing you can call it.

But Checa on Neukirchner does not require a court of inquiry and it was not a racing incident.

I love tough racing. I love watching riders take one another out to the edge of the grass. I love watching them trade paint. I don't love watching someone ride over the limit and crash. Any amateur can do that, myself included.
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If you race like an amateur you can hang with the amateurs at the rear of the pack.

Close racing and tough passing naturally has an increased risk level over riding in space. To support or even encourage this you would also need to accept that there is scope for negative consequences. I can't think of any instances in recent memory where i feel a punishment should have been handed out to a rider when it wasn't.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 12 2008, 12:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Close racing and tough passing naturally has an increased risk level over riding in space. To support or even encourage this you would also need to accept that there is scope for negative consequences. I can't think of any instances in recent memory where i feel a punishment should have been handed out to a rider when it wasn't.

Yeah, you're right. Risk means higher payoffs and greater losses.

So let me ask you:

If you bin your bike while riding alone what are the consequences?

If you bin your bike while riding recklessly (relative for racing) in traffic and you take out half the field what are the consequences?

In both circumstances the loss is exactly the same to the crasher but the rewards of attempting wild passes grows exponentially. As you have pointed out such a scenario is the antithesis of risk reward. In fact both rational and irrational people engaged in competition realize the payoffs of poorly attempted maneuvers to capture positions is the only choice.

The only check on rider recklessness is the cost of the machines they are destroying. Do you really wanna make bikes more expensive to encourage people to pilot them like professionals?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 13 2008, 04:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If you bin your bike while riding recklessly (relative for racing) in traffic and you take out half the field what are the consequences?

This is the point we are disputing really. Where do you draw the line of recklessness. Following closely? Attempting a pass? Using others to stear your bike?
 
The Checa Crash - For Those Who Haven't Seen It

I hadn't seen it, by the sounds of it, no do not fine Checa, after watching the video, I still say let him be. It's a race, and the objective is too over-take and try and win the race, which is what Checa did, just too bad that he crashed, in no way was it reckless, someone of Checa's experiance would have more control in such a situation.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 13 2008, 12:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This is the point we are disputing really. Where do you draw the line of recklessness. Following closely? Attempting a pass? Using others to stear your bike?

It's not for me to define. I don't care what reckless is and I don't think anyone should ever be penalized for being reckless. If I define reckless, the performance envelope will never be pushed.

I do; however, care about riders throwing their bikes into other people and shrugging it off.

We as fans expect two things. 1) riders to race hard and try to win 2) for them to finish the race. The winning part is part of human nature and the league/teams give incentives like cash, fame, trophies, etc. The second part is also policed by the teams. If a rider bins it and collects no points while damaging property he won't last long. Obviously, you encourage winning with incentives and you police crashing with punitive measures.

But how do you right a situation where one careless rider ruins other riders weekends by turning his motorcycle into a runaway sled? You can't reset the race to the last lap, you can't give points to the people who were wiped out. The only thing you can go is penalize the perpetrator. If you do nothing the rules have NO EQUITY. When you do nothing in an obvious situation like this, all riders quickly realize it's better to push in traffic because you'll take out your closest competition as well!!

I want to be clear about one thing. I am talking about situations where a bone headed rider chucks his bike into other people or turns his bike into a sliding roadblock. I don't care about anything else. Tangle-ups, ramming, corralling people off track, scaring other people off track
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----all good. Bowling for bikers----not okay.

Checa went bowling for Neukirchner. I don't care if it was an accident or if "these things happen when you're racing". He wasn't taking any additional risk when he pulled that move----that's what makes the outcome so despicably lame.

Do you really wanna see more moves like Checa made on Neukirchner? If no, you should entertain the idea that the lack of punitive measures is what caused such a poorly planned maneuver.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 14 2008, 07:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I want to be clear about one thing. I am talking about situations where a bone headed rider chucks his bike into other people or turns his bike into a sliding roadblock. I don't care about anything else. Tangle-ups, ramming, corralling people off track, scaring other people off track
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----all good. Bowling for bikers----not okay.

Personally i find the line you are chosing to draw is grey and unclear. I doubt it could every realistcally be applied.

If Checa had stayed on his bike and gone offline to hit Max (which would have resulted in a similar accident) instead would that have come under a "tangle-up"?
 
Sorry, joining this a little late.

I believe that penalties should apply where an incident was either deliberate or dangerously reckless and blame can clearly be apportioned. The issue would be defining 'dangerously reckless' or proving intent and that is where I feel that it would likely fall down.

Now with regards to the Checa's incident I do think it was reckless stupidity but I am not convinced that it was deliberate on Checa's behalf to 'take the win or take out MN'.

I would however actually think that there would already be the opportunity to fine/suspend or otherwise punish any rider who performs and action deemed detrimental or dangerous. I know that in Australia the Clerk of the Course has the right to issue a punishment for any such act and would expect the same at WSBK level.
It is a good thought but an interesting topic to determine.




Garry
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Apr 16 2008, 11:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sorry, joining this a little late.

I believe that penalties should apply where an incident was either deliberate or dangerously reckless and blame can clearly be apportioned. The issue would be defining 'dangerously reckless' or proving intent and that is where I feel that it would likely fall down.

Now with regards to the Checa's incident I do think it was reckless stupidity but I am not convinced that it was deliberate on Checa's behalf to 'take the win or take out MN'.
If you think it was reckless stupidity, why must intent be established? Of course he didn't intent to deliberately take himself out, so why is this relevant? The part that should be sanctioned is the disregard for being reckless. In this case, as you concede, he was definitely reckless.

I have yet for somebody here to explain when is there a "reckless" or “negligent” or “detrimental” move that should be sanctioned. It seems ALL moves are acceptable. Who the hell can crawl in a guy’s head to ascertain “intent”? (This cannot even be done in a courtroom with witness and video). But everyday we have people sanctioned for negligence, detrimental and unsportmanship conduct, or unprofessionalism—apart from lacking “intent” in other sports and in life, why does this not apply to this sport?

All I read here is that its too hard to figure out intent, or we don't want to stifle the spirit of competition, yet these people watch other sports where there is constant intervention and sectioning of players. Why the hell do the standards of sportsmanship and professionalism cease to exist in motorcycle racing?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 14 2008, 10:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Personally i find the line you are chosing to draw is grey and unclear. I doubt it could every realistcally be applied.

If Checa had stayed on his bike and gone offline to hit Max (which would have resulted in a similar accident) instead would that have come under a "tangle-up"?

Do you really need to worry about riders intentionally ramming one another?

You're getting hung up on the procedural workings of the rules, I've already accepted there is a working system in place. I'm demanding that the system in place function to find a remedy.

Checa's pass on Neukirchner needs to be weeded out of the sport. Besides the surprise ending it provided, it was one of the lamest moves I have ever seen in sport. The race directors don't care because Checa is from a big market and Max is not. That's the reality of it.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 18 2008, 04:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>it was one of the lamest moves I have ever seen in sport. The race directors don't care because Checa is from a big market and Max is not. That's the reality of it.

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How many races have you actually seen?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 18 2008, 06:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>
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How many races have you actually seen?

I'm sure you list up a dosen of just as lame situations without any sanction?

I can think a a couple but that doesn't make it less lame.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Apr 17 2008, 10:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If you think it was reckless stupidity, why must intent be established? Of course he didn't intent to deliberately take himself out, so why is this relevant? The part that should be sanctioned is the disregard for being reckless. In this case, as you concede, he was definitely reckless.

I have yet for somebody here to explain when is there a "reckless" or “negligent” or “detrimental” move that should be sanctioned. It seems ALL moves are acceptable. Who the hell can crawl in a guy’s head to ascertain “intent”? (This cannot even be done in a courtroom with witness and video). But everyday we have people sanctioned for negligence, detrimental and unsportmanship conduct, or unprofessionalism—apart from lacking “intent” in other sports and in life, why does this not apply to this sport?

All I read here is that its too hard to figure out intent, or we don't want to stifle the spirit of competition, yet these people watch other sports where there is constant intervention and sectioning of players. Why the hell do the standards of sportsmanship and professionalism cease to exist in motorcycle racing?


I don't say that intent must be proved in order penalise, only that the move needs to meet certain criteria and it is defining that criteria that I see as problematic.

What you or I call reckless, some may see as negligent whilst others see no problems and all this in an era where 'dangerous riding' can already be penalised.

Your second paragraph has me a little confused (easily done mind). By 'sanctioned' do you mean penalised or accepted.

Given I assume you mean penalised I would suggest an example of wet conditions. You have a rider approaching (again example as I witnessed this occur) turn 4 at Phillip Island. Rider A brakes well before the dry braking marker and loses the front end therefore sliding. Another rider B in front is braking for the corner but is collected by the sliding bike therefore falling.

Whilst I see this as a level of negligence on rider A I do not think he/she should be penalised because that negligence caused rider B to fall. To me this was purely an accident (incident) that had consequences outside of Rider A's control.

In the Checa case I do believe that some form of 'penalty' should have been imposed on Checa but do we know for certain that he was not called before the clerk of course or that he was not spoken to be it formally or informally.

Or am I just rambling again (not feeling the best so it could just be rambling).
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Garry
 
What about Tommy Sykes in Race 1 at Thruxton? He made an error, turned in onto Haslams rear wheel, lost the bike and poor Karl Harris ended up with a Suzuki in the face
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Should Sykes be penalised for attempting something that just wasn't on (Haslam's bike was in the way, so what was he thinking?) and taking out another rider in the process?

I don't think so, nor did anyone interviewed during the Eurosport coverage. It was a racing incident, same as Checa/Neukirchner.

If you're going to start penalising recklessness, what about reckless passes where both riders survive the incident and remain on two wheels? Lorenzo on Rossi last race was a bit iffy, and Lorenzo even apologised for it.
 
man all the posts in this forum about how motogp is being ruined by tc or goin to the 800s or any number of other percieved deficiencies. if you want to wreck bike racing in general start penalizing racers for moves like this "RACING INCEDENT" and we'll really have something to complain about.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Apr 21 2008, 07:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What about Tommy Sykes in Race 1 at Thruxton? He made an error, turned in onto Haslams rear wheel, lost the bike and poor Karl Harris ended up with a Suzuki in the face
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Should Sykes be penalised for attempting something that just wasn't on (Haslam's bike was in the way, so what was he thinking?) and taking out another rider in the process?

I don't think so, nor did anyone interviewed during the Eurosport coverage. It was a racing incident, same as Checa/Neukirchner.

If you're going to start penalising recklessness, what about reckless passes where both riders survive the incident and remain on two wheels? Lorenzo on Rossi last race was a bit iffy, and Lorenzo even apologised for it.
yamaka i wish we got bsb here in the states but those ..... over at speed channel have thier heads firmly stuffed up their ...'s. i can't even buy the season review anymore.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ Apr 22 2008, 01:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>man all the posts in this forum about how motogp is being ruined by tc or goin to the 800s or any number of other percieved deficiencies. if you want to wreck bike racing in general start penalizing racers for moves like this "RACING INCEDENT" and we'll really have something to complain about.
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As an example of what that type of approach leads to look no further (well us Aussies anyway) than the v8 borefests which have reduced '50/50 overtaking manouvers because of the threat of penalties.

As I have said, I do believe that there should be penalties (in certain tight condition) and would fully expect that the opportunity is there now for a rider to be penalised. But, those at the circuit are in far better position to say when a penalty should apply not me sitting here in my loungeroom.





Garry
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ Apr 21 2008, 06:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>man all the posts in this forum about how motogp is being ruined by tc or goin to the 800s or any number of other percieved deficiencies. if you want to wreck bike racing in general start penalizing racers for moves like this "RACING INCEDENT" and we'll really have something to complain about.
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Please.

This was not a racing incident. A racing incident is what occurs when people rub, bump, and tangle in traffic. A racing incident is what happens when someone misses their braking mark, rides through another man's line, and causes him to lose the race because he broke his momentum. A racing incident is what happens when a chain reaction of riders cutting one another off, forces one of them into the litter.

Being hit by some Don Quixote chasing an impossible win at a home circuit is not a racing incident. All he had to do was keep it upright and it would have been good try, cruise in for 2nd or 3rd depending on how far off he went. But no, he had to chuck his bike down the road just to show he was really trying hard.
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This is one of the easiest "incidents" to penalize I've ever seen. If you don't penalize it, you are making sure it becomes part of the sport. Balls and bravado are instinct, they won't go away if you send a guy to the back for refusing to use his head.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 22 2008, 03:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>
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Please.

This was not a racing incident. A racing incident is what occurs when people rub, bump, and tangle in traffic. A racing incident is what happens when someone misses their braking mark, rides through another man's line, and causes him to lose the race because he broke his momentum. A racing incident is what happens when a chain reaction of riders cutting one another off, forces one of them into the litter.

Being hit by some Don Quixote chasing an impossible win at a home circuit is not a racing incident. All he had to do was keep it upright and it would have been good try, cruise in for 2nd or 3rd depending on how far off he went. But no, he had to chuck his bike down the road just to show he was really trying hard.
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This is one of the easiest "incidents" to penalize I've ever seen. If you don't penalize it, you are making sure it becomes part of the sport. Balls and bravado are instinct, they won't go away if you send a guy to the back for refusing to use his head.
rubbish.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ Apr 22 2008, 03:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>rubbish.
Haha Frost, I guess that means you have NOTHING. Dude, I love your comments but I must disagree with you on this one man, (all due respect).

I suppose that human flaws such as lack of self-control, envy, selfishness, stubbornness, folly, covetousness, intemperance, self-indulgence, hedonism (make yourself happy), egotism, arrogance, and lack of consideration for others—these characteristics cease to exist on the track according to your reasoning! These riders cease to be human, and all moves, no matter how outrageous & reckless are just “racing incidents”, right? The point I’m making is that these human flaws lead to moves like the one Checa made. He wanted to win so bad at his home track that he was willing to make an impossible move, blinded by folly and selfishness, resulting in a detrimental move to Max N. The worst of these flaws--DESPERATION!

Here is what I find interesting about those debating the other side; none of you can come up with a "racing incident" that should be penalized. So we can only conclude that, apart from a reasonable mistake, no reckless moves are a result of human character flaws, according to your reasoning. Well those of us who live in the real world know that humans are humans and will even use dubious methods to get ahead (why would human racers be any different). This was one such event that was spawned by this type of human flaw, and the results were devastating for the rider who was not held in consideration for his (Max's) effort of leading the race and having the race-line for that corner resulting in an inevitable win because Checa was blinded by self-indulgence. Why have a sanctioning body and race marshals & officials and post race equipment inspectors, if such scrutiny to have an equitable contest does NOT extend to the <u>riders conduct</u> on the field? Can you answer these questions?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 22 2008, 12:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This is one of the easiest "incidents" to penalize I've ever seen. If you don't penalize it, you are making sure it becomes part of the sport. Balls and bravado are instinct, they won't go away if you send a guy to the back for refusing to use his head.
Desperation moves happen all the time in other sports. Why would anybody think they don’t happen in motorcycle racing? Consider the player faced with being beaten on the soccer field, undercuts his opponent to avoid what sure is to be a goal. The ref makes a determination, perhaps a red card, or a yellow, perhaps a penalty kick. Do they necessarily make a determination of “intent”? Regardless, of not being able to crawl in the player’s head, they penalize what they deem to be detrimental to equitable contest; at very least unsportman like conduct. Consider the player sliding into second base, cleats up (for those US baseball fans). Etc, ect. There are many cases where officials make a determination and penalize participants in a contest. Does this “stifle” aggressiveness; does this “diminish” the sport? Why the resistance to check detrimental reckless moves and maintain a level of professionalism and appropriate conduct in racing?
 

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