Should Ducati sack Hayden?

nothing to do with nikys riding style.

substance over style will win all the time

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ May 25 2009, 05:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I also thought Nicky's style would suit the Desmosedici, and I agree until now it has not shown, which imho means that it is not just a matter of style. So the Ducati mistery continues, or even deepens... But firing Hayden to hire another rider wouldn't solve anything. If Hayden gives up and wants to leave, that's another matter.

Another issue is, how many riders are now ready to jeopardize their careers with a Ducati ride?

I believe Haydens main problem is the switch to 800cc. His point and squirt style is better suited to the 990's. Ducati may also look at 250cc class for there next crop of riders. Hiro Aoyama, Bautista, Pasini, ''The madman'' Hector Barbrea etc. Riders that have no motogp or four stroke experience, may hold the key to mastering the Desmosedici. Unfortunately with the new rookie rule this may not be an option.

bautista or simoncelli yes
hector no - an average rider whos been in 250s for too long and will be another failure

Look it this way, no other rider can ride GP9 fast enough like Stoner did. Even Ducati technicians do their best preparing the bike, 4 other GP9 riders can't make the bike flying like Stoner's bike. So, whats are the missing pieces here? Is it just Stoner's technicians can make the bike reach it's potentials or just Stoner able to use it up to optimum?

Even Kallio just a bit better than the other 3 riders. But, he was no where near to Stoner abilities to get the most from the bike. We all knows what the bike capable to do. Even Stoner able to squeeze more juice out of it. Here a few pieces I've collected so far:

<ul>[] Stoner is a fast rider which is always restricted by some limitation before riding Ducati.[] GP9 bike doesn't restrict how fast the rider want to go. Yet, it's not easy bike to ride.[] GP9 is a wild beast. It's need electronics to tame it become like the other ridable bike. But, in tame mode, the beast doesn't go fast because it's full potential has been restricted.[] It's not easy to a rider learn to go fast. But, it is easy for a fast rider learn to go a bit slower.[/list]

I guess, if a GP9 rider want to go fast, release the beast and deal with it. Period.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nero @ May 25 2009, 10:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>[] It's not easy to a rider learn to go fast. But, it is easy for a fast rider learn to go a bit slower.
[/list]

thats the bit they need to work on. Its the bit that may bite them, too many more riders going backwards on a Duc. and it will hurt them in the marketplace.

I think you are right about Stoner too, he is just plain fast. When he got his first factory ride ( premier factory aid ) he wasn't going to blow it. Hence why he rode like he did from day one, Qatar 07, with the Ducati. And in that one race, Qatar 07, he found the secret of riding the thing. I don't think he had the cornering down until later that year but nonetheless he looks like he's riding the thing with more determination than any other rider out there. I would love to see him on the Yamaha.

Perhaps Pinky's comments about Melandri, Hayden and even Capirosi are his way of saying "its just Stoner". But given the ardent nature of some of the fans here, gets sooked at too much if he dares say it

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ May 25 2009, 08:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But firing Hayden to hire another rider wouldn't solve anything.

he should at least beat satellite riders regularly... but he cant do that... gibernau after 2 years break and without 800cc experience is faster than him, rookie kallio too, he barely beat canepa who had not have any gp experience til this season... so he should be fired.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nero @ May 25 2009, 08:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Look it this way, no other rider can ride GP9 fast enough like Stoner did. Even Ducati technicians do their best preparing the bike, 4 other GP9 riders can't make the bike flying like Stoner's bike. So, whats are the missing pieces here? Is it just Stoner's technicians can make the bike reach it's potentials or just Stoner able to use it up to optimum?

Even Kallio just a bit better than the other 3 riders. But, he was no where near to Stoner abilities to get the most from the bike. We all knows what the bike capable to do. Even Stoner able to squeeze more juice out of it. Here a few pieces I've collected so far:

<ul>[] Stoner is a fast rider which is always restricted by some limitation before riding Ducati.[] GP9 bike doesn't restrict how fast the rider want to go. Yet, it's not easy bike to ride.[] GP9 is a wild beast. It's need electronics to tame it become like the other ridable bike. But, in tame mode, the beast doesn't go fast because it's full potential has been restricted.[] It's not easy to a rider learn to go fast. But, it is easy for a fast rider learn to go a bit slower.[/list]

I guess, if a GP9 rider want to go fast, release the beast and deal with it. Period.

Well said. To find the guy that can release it has been the challenge...

Very valid point...going to Ducati would be a huge risk for any rider

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (#27aus @ May 25 2009, 02:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>he should at least beat satellite riders regularly... but he cant do that... gibernau after 2 years break and without 800cc experience is faster than him, rookie kallio too, he barely beat canepa who had not have any gp experience til this season... so he should be fired.

What would they gain by sacking Nicky? Every time a high end rider struggles on the bike they will struggle more to get another on board. So replacing Nicky with someone nearly as good would be difficult, especially mid season. Also Nickies issues seem to be shared with all Ducati riders except Stoner, so perhaps Ducati will look inwardly and try to improve their bike rather than trying to sign 4 or 5 Casey Stoners, that wont happen.

Besides all of that you have to remember there are contracts in place, Nicky has huge marketting value and i don't think either party is the type to run or hide from the problems rather than work hard to tackle them.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 26 2009, 02:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What would they gain by sacking Nicky?

But if things keep going as they are will Nicky want to stay? Melandri wanted out after a while, will Nicky be the same?

Perhaps Pinky's question should be "should Nicky sack Ducati?"

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ May 25 2009, 06:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But if things keep going as they are will Nicky want to stay? Melandri wanted out after a while, will Nicky be the same?

Perhaps Pinky's question should be "should Nicky sack Ducati?"

Again, at this point in the season with contracts everywhere what can he get thats better? Quitting a team won't be good for his image, and i wouldn't have him down as a giver uper anyway.

I think the way this discussion goes. it is the same way what was happened in Ducati's camp. Look at different direction to find a solution for the same problem. While the obvious element that can change the result being unnoticed in front their very eyes.

The problem they has is an arcane issue which is need totally the opposite direction from the other maker's bike they know. Desmosedici is an exotic prototype machine combination of art and performance in a race bike. It was made to fly, not to be rider friendly.

for instance, gsfan, they had the guy who can release the beast. The guy called Electronics technician. They also has some good riders too. But need to be told that they need to ride the bike in different ways with all the skills and talents that they already had. Right now the bike goes forward and the riders goes backward. The bike and the rider need to be in the same direction so they could go forward even faster.

What all of them need is another 3 days test session with minimum rider aid configurations. Preferably, using Stoner's setting to started up with. Let the beast running with it's own nature and rider just guide the direction where to go. See how fast these riders can get with the 'unstable' conditions. Instead of going plus with rider aids setting, they should try go minus bit by bit. Eventually, these riders will adapting the nature of the beast and begin to have an idea which setup could suit them yet retain the beast characteristics.

It seem the new Desmosedici riders lack of time to know their ride well enough to personalize their own setup that doesn't upset the bike's performances. I remembered that was exactly what Capirossi told Stoner to do to understand the Desmosedici at Valencia test debut. Yet, he himself seem dismissed his own advice intentionally or not.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 25 2009, 05:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What would they gain by sacking Nicky?

money and at least slightly better results. kallio isnt next big thing but he is cheaper (coz he is not american) and better than hayden.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (#27aus @ May 25 2009, 08:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>money and at least slightly better results. kallio isnt next big thing but he is cheaper (coz he is not american) and better than hayden.

SAcking Nicky would probably mean buying him out of his contract, not cheap i'd imagine. And Kallio already rides a Duc so there is little to gain from switching him to another team. Ducati would still have to source another rider, currently not under contract, who is willing to go in at the deep end and risk their career on a bike that now has a reputation for putting decent riders at the back of the grid. I don't see it happening.

and yeah, with kallio on that bike ducati may be in contention for 2nd place between manufacturers which also means more money because at this rate they will not finish just behind yamaha, but behind honda too.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 25 2009, 07:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>SAcking Nicky would probably mean buying him out of his contract, not cheap i'd imagine. And Kallio already rides a Duc so there is little to gain from switching him to another team. Ducati would still have to source another rider, currently not under contract, who is willing to go in at the deep end and risk their career on a bike that now has a reputation for putting decent riders at the back of the grid. I don't see it happening.

call barros out of pension perhaps...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (#27aus @ May 25 2009, 08:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>call barros out of pension perhaps...

thats a good`un for you (the joke)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nero @ May 25 2009, 08:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It seem the new Desmosedici riders lack of time to know their ride well enough to personalize their own setup that doesn't upset the bike's performances. I remembered that was exactly what Capirossi told Stoner to do to understand the Desmosedici at Valencia test debut. Yet, he himself seem dismissed his own advice intentionally or not.

These guys are professionals and even world champions they should be able to use the time they do have to adatp the bike as much as possible and themselves to deliver results. Quantity of miles riden is no substitute for Quality of miles riden.....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MigsAngel @ May 26 2009, 04:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>These guys are professionals and even world champions they should be able to use the time they do have to adatp the bike as much as possible and themselves to deliver results. Quantity of miles riden is no substitute for Quality of miles riden.....
MigsAngel,

I would agree with you 100% if the bike is other than Ducati Desmosedici. But the Desmosedici is a different beast. Its rather to know how much the unstable characteristics from the bike would give the rider advantages. It is no questions, they all already know how to stabilize their bike's balance. Because they're skillful and talented professional riders. They just need to allow a small amount of accepted instability to make the bike move freely.

For instance, a chatter that normally considered not good on other make, will actually are welcome by the Desmosedici. You know what I mean...

Be very realistic and understand the situation at present. Nicky has had limited time on the bike even for a racer and world champion. IF you really want to understand the issues about his deal then look no further than practice times reduced. This hurts especially since Nicky is usually the one rider who puts in the most laps a weekend. He has been hampered by people hitting him off the bike or close to it. The entire stigma of the GP9 is a mountain that needs time to climb. YOu don't reach the top of everest in a day or so. It takes time and being careful to reach the prize. I think Nicky understands his place and has confidence that he will do well on the duc as long as he has a bit more time to get a basic setting he knows he can work from and develop. I just don't think he has really had the time to arrive at a setting solid enough to work from.