Should Ducati sack Hayden?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clarkjw @ Apr 21 2009, 08:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As biased as this sounds, the problem is the Italian way of working. It isn't efficient. This is obvious to anyone who's spent time in Italy and studied superfluous and indirect Italian language. They're Edison, not Tesla. Rather than honing in on theory, they make tweaks and test the reaction in lap times. I'm sure a good German, Japanese or American engineer could help them work through this quickly. They have the passion and innovative spirit but are missing a rigid cultural structure. The small size of Ducati doesn't help either.

Casey is a phenomenal talent, but he's just not 2 seconds/lap better than everyone else. His last completed dry race of 2006 was Sepang (well into his 2006 season on a track he knew), where he finished 8th, behind the Hondas of Roberts, Hayden and Pedrosa. He was just 3 seconds ahead of Marco. Much of his success was the lucking into a bike he could ride fast.

There is something wrong with the Ducati that only he seems to be able to adjust to. If there were pressure/laser sensors at the chassis, seat, pegs and bars + standard telemetry I'd bet this could all be solved. It may even be something other teams are doing. I'm telling whoever in the Paddock will listen this weekend.


Maybe while you are in your helping mood, after fixing the mess of Ducati Corse you may want to proceed to nearby Maranello to cure Ferrari.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Apr 22 2009, 12:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>
Maybe while you are in your helping mood, after fixing the mess of Ducati Corse you may want to proceed to nearby Maranello to cure Ferrari.

We all know F1 is un saveable.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Apr 22 2009, 12:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ah well, I may as well go slink away for 10 years and learn about the sport I have watched for the last 20 or so years then because I have a different opinion to you Arrabiata1.

IMO and from my knowledge, at the start of each and every year/season all riders within the one team are availed with equal machinery where they are part of the one same factory team (some satellite teams differ as one rider receives higher level equipment to others).

Sorry Gaz, off the top off my head I can identify numerous instances in which this was purportedly and indeed should have been the case. Given the depth of your knowledge in addition to the quality of your posts and your 20 years of watching this sport, I'm very surpised to learn that you can't think of any yourself. Some are glaringly obvious..one immediately springs to mind from the mid seventies, and one from much more recently.

BTW, that sport you've been watching for the last 20 or so years...add another 10 and then we'll talk style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/.....gif

Time will tell how Nicky will do. He never got anything but the back of the hand from Honda. One thing is for sure, he will give 110%, the question is will it be enough. Personally, I think he will do fine and I'm sure that Ducati is proud to have two former world champions on its team.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Apr 22 2009, 01:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sorry Gaz, off the top off my head I can identify numerous instances in which this was purportedly and indeed should have been the case. Given the depth of your knowledge in addition to the quality of your posts and your 20 years of watching this sport, I'm very surpised to learn that you can't think of any yourself. Some are glaringly obvious..one immediately springs to mind from the mid seventies, and one from much more recently.

BTW, that sport you've been watching for the last 20 or so years...add another 10 and then we'll talk style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/.....gif


I can think of a few non-Factory where one rider started with different machinery (ie. Kato/Gibernau) but within the factory all riders will generall start the season with the same bike save for personal preference differences (Doohan with the screamer vs Criville with the big bang). But, the important thing that is often overlooked here is that the season does not start at the first race, but generally at the first test session and from that day forward variations will occur.

I will agree happily that by seasons end it is highly unlikely that the bikes of team-mates remain the same in any but the most basic of aspects.

As for how long, chirst you got me thinking with your 30 years and I have to say that I got involved when SBS in Australia started showing the GP's so it is nearer to 25 years (but if anyone knows the answer pipe up please).

All up and in honesty, some riders are disadvantaged (IMO) because of their team mate or other issues, so I do reckon weh ave common ground there.






Gaz

<span style="color:#FF00FFI laugh when people always speculate that rider x gets different support to rider y who are on the same team.

well maybe for rossi, and deservedly so being by far and away the #1 man, but as for the others meh they all get equal support.

Pinky's original post - resplendent in pink so as to avoid confusion - as if his idiocy warranted highlighting!

I simply pointed out that it is garbage. You have explained why your opinion differs to mine; Pinky makes no reference to equipment provided at the begining of the season, he simply maintains that there is always equal support, which as I correctly replied is .........

Gresini are indeed a prime example of differing machinery/disparities - think also Edwards on the No.2 bike; but I wouldn't have included them for the reason you gave regarding satellite teams openly recieving higher spec designations and factory involvement/contractual ties with a given rider.

Honestly, the more I think about it, there are multiple instances of unequal factory treatment form the outset of the season, and not simply as you say through personal preference.

Also remember - factory support/treatment is not simply confined to machinery.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Apr 22 2009, 04:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Honestly, the more I think about it, there are multiple instances of unequal factory treatment form the outset of the season, and not simply as you say through personal preference

No doubt this occurs as seasons progress and in many ways I would expect that it should where ciorcumstances define the opportunity (ie. as one rider becomes less a championship contender, clear rookie etc). I also strongly suspect that where one rider is able to inject more dollars into teh team (both factory and satellite) that the opinions or requiremenst of that rider will receive a higher level of 'regard'.

IMO, it is the level of 'unequal' treatment that can lead to problems/issues as I would expect that many riders know their place within the team structure and are comfortable not receiving the 'first choice' componentry (ie. Edwards to Rossi as you allude)


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Apr 22 2009, 04:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Also remember - factory support/treatment is not simply confined to machinery.

Absolutely agree with the comment above though and it is here where I find a lot of 'conspiracy' type of scandals as to who gets what in terms of factory support and/or machines seem to emanate (not for discussing, just saying).

It will be interesting in the years ahead with the new 'rookie' rule as to what happens in the supposed satellite teams with respects to the provision of factory support as why would a factory hire a rookie when they cannot place that rookie in the factory team (?), but now we are getting well off topic so will leave that one well alone.






Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Apr 21 2009, 06:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Actually yes - but not intentionally or by design on the part of Bologna. Somewhere buried in the darkest depths of the monster that became the Qatar thread, I was speculating over whether the Pupilan crew on that side of the garage was as sorted and efficient as the Gabarini directed team that has so successfully melded and channelled its resources with Stoner. That there are huge disparities in that garage is self evident, but although they are not driven by the same willfully orchestrated dividing ethos that pervades Repsol Honda, they can be just as counter productive.

Okay then

I can agree to your view so long as we can all agree then that Nikcy's poor results (Qatar and future) are not his fault, and by the same token, his successes will be not due to his talent either then I am happy...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Apr 21 2009, 03:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Why do you wholeheartedly disagree? on what basis?

Well, firstly it was well documentad at the time that HRC were desperate to beat Yamaha to a 990 title post Rossi, and that their evo RCV was the result of that. It was developed to negate the advantage that Yamaha had over them, particularly with regards to stability into corners. Gibernau and Biaggi turned the bike down at Brno 05 because they didn't want a bike change mid season, but Nicky elected to use it for the 06 season.

Additionally, it would be completely illogical and unrealistic of Honda to make a rookie their number 1 rider and title hope, given Haydens experience and strong 05 seaosn. If the conspiracy theorists are right and Dani was number 1 right away why did he have the same spec bike as the customer riders, while Honda spent money, man power and resources building a seperate bike for one rider, evidently at the expense of their 07 project. The answer is that the evo 990 was in fact a last title push for 06, and allowed Hayden to produce what has been significantly his best season. The bikes track record is right there to see.

Yes Honda brought development parts in the season, and yes the bike had a few issues but it was relatively young, and it is a testiment to Hondas commitment to winning that title that they were trying to solve those problems so late in the season when they really should have been working on the 07 bike.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 22 2009, 09:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Additionally, it would be completely illogical and unrealistic of Honda to make a rookie their number 1 rider and title hope, given Haydens experience and strong 05 seaosn. If the conspiracy theorists are right and Dani was number 1 right away why did he have the same spec bike as the customer riders, while Honda spent money, man power and resources building a seperate bike for one rider, evidently at the expense of their 07 project. The answer is that the evo 990 was in fact a last title push for 06, and allowed Hayden to produce what has been significantly his best season. The bikes track record is right there to see.

Yes Honda brought development parts in the season, and yes the bike had a few issues but it was relatively young, and it is a testiment to Hondas commitment to winning that title that they were trying to solve those problems so late in the season when they really should have been working on the 07 bike.

are you suggesting that any repsol rider, from any era has a customer spec bike for any length of time? especially spanish future champion elect ones?

how much of what hayden tested on the evo was then used on the rc212v? so was that a one off special just for nicky to win a title with?

the big difference in'06 was that pedro ran the new parts he wanted to. hayden ran the new parts that honda wanted him to. see the diffence there?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Apr 22 2009, 10:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>are you suggesting that any repsol rider, from any era has a customer spec bike for any length of time? especially spanish future champion elect ones?

how much of what hayden tested on the evo was then used on the rc212v? so was that a one off special just for nicky to win a title with?

the big difference in'06 was that pedro ran the new parts he wanted to. hayden ran the new parts that honda wanted him to. see the diffence there?

N i'm not suggesting that a Repsol rider had a customer spec bike, but mid season 06 Stoner got factory spec kit, and Marco had it to start with.

The evo 990 wasn't a one off specifically for nicky, and perhaps it wasn't intended as a one off (i'd imagine not) but it was built to win a 990 title, and it did that. In fact the clutch issues Nicky encountered were actually caused by his riding style because they bike was designed to be used by Sete and Max. And i repeat that Nicky chose to run the evo bike in 06, he was advised by the engineers that despite not being sorted initially that it would be better over a full season. He could have put his foot down and taken the Pedrosa bike, but he didn't and it worked.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 22 2009, 10:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>N i'm not suggesting that a Repsol rider had a customer spec bike, but mid season 06 Stoner got factory spec kit, and Marco had it to start with.

The evo 990 wasn't a one off specifically for nicky, and perhaps it wasn't intended as a one off (i'd imagine not) but it was built to win a 990 title, and it did that. In fact the clutch issues Nicky encountered were actually caused by his riding style because they bike was designed to be used by Sete and Max. And i repeat that Nicky chose to run the evo bike in 06, he was advised by the engineers that despite not being sorted initially that it would be better over a full season. He could have put his foot down and taken the Pedrosa bike, but he didn't and it worked.

every bike on the grid is built to win races. thats a given otherwise it becomes a very expensive and redundant test session.
ok, so as a rider with no engineering background, why would he go against the recommendations of the tech guys?
as for the clutch issues, dani said they turned around a new chassis for him in a few days, why did it take so long for them to fix a clutch?
so, to cap it off, nicky hands them a title and then immediately becomes the 2nd rider in the team for 2007? can you see how this would seem odd if he was the team leader in '06? not so odd if he was not the no.1 in the team though....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Apr 22 2009, 01:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>so, to cap it off, nicky hands them a title and then immediately becomes the 2nd rider in the team for 2007? can you see how this would seem odd if he was the team leader in '06? not so odd if he was not the no.1 in the team though....

From what i can remember the route of the clutch problem was that the more compact motor made the clutch hotter than the old bike, and Hayden chose a setup which generated a lot of clutch heat.

I don't find it particularly odd either than Dani became the number 1 rider in 07, just like i don't think it was odd that Stoner became Ducati's number one. HRC had a promising young rider who had an incredible rookie season testing their bike with impressive spead and looking like the real deal. It makes total sense for them to follow his lead rather than focussing on Hayden who was slow and open in the fact that he needed time to adapt. No race team has time to stop development and wait for a rider to sort his riding out when their other rider is already where he needs to be. Making a rookie team leader is far more illogical than making the quicker of your two riders priorty.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 22 2009, 02:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>From what i can remember the route of the clutch problem was that the more compact motor made the clutch hotter than the old bike, and Hayden chose a setup which generated a lot of clutch heat.

I don't find it particularly odd either than Dani became the number 1 rider in 07, just like i don't think it was odd that Stoner became Ducati's number one. HRC had a promising young rider who had an incredible rookie season testing their bike with impressive spead and looking like the real deal. It makes total sense for them to follow his lead rather than focussing on Hayden who was slow and open in the fact that he needed time to adapt. No race team has time to stop development and wait for a rider to sort his riding out when their other rider is already where he needs to be. Making a rookie team leader is far more illogical than making the quicker of your two riders priorty.
surely hayden was the quicker rider? he had after all just won a title.............

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Apr 22 2009, 02:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>surely hayden was the quicker rider? he had after all just won a title.............



His pre-season to 07 was poor

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 22 2009, 02:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>His pre-season to 07 was poor
was the rc212v designed between seasons? or was it designed a little bit earlier when pedro was not no1 @ repsol?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Apr 22 2009, 03:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>was the rc212v designed between seasons? or was it designed a little bit earlier when pedro was not no1 @ repsol?

Before of course. Anyway, this could go on and on, its a chicken and the egg type argument as the whether Nicky became number 2 by being out performed or if his performance dropped as a reult of being demoted within the team. It makes little difference in the long run

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 22 2009, 10:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>N i'm not suggesting that a Repsol rider had a customer spec bike, but mid season 06 Stoner got factory spec kit, and Marco had it to start with.

The evo 990 wasn't a one off specifically for nicky, and perhaps it wasn't intended as a one off (i'd imagine not) but it was built to win a 990 title, and it did that. In fact the clutch issues Nicky encountered were actually caused by his riding style because they bike was designed to be used by Sete and Max. And i repeat that Nicky chose to run the evo bike in 06, he was advised by the engineers that despite not being sorted initially that it would be better over a full season. He could have put his foot down and taken the Pedrosa bike, but he didn't and it worked.
The '06 evo was an experimentation into high mass. For this Evo 990 or "the high-crank V5" (the 06 bike) the crank was raised and the engine was shorter overall, reverting the longer swingarm (similar to the M1), that had been previously rejected the year before by Biaggi and Gibernau. I think they pissed about with the balance/mass of the bike to quicken its steering like the Yam, but ended up initially jeopardizing much of the bikes strengths that Nicky had by then been exploiting so deftly. Did Nicky elect to use the bike? - I don't recall him being deterred by engineers as you say, and I don't recall there being much of an option there. In fact you're wrong...it initially appeared to have lost the advantages of the standard '05 version. I remember Melandri was given the '06 chassis for testing, which he immediately rejected in favour of the more balanced '05 version. Nicky found that the bike was very stable into corners (as one would expect), but they had sacrificed the existing advantages of the bike -chiefly traction out of corners, and to cap it all a little top end. If anything Nicky was reluctant to use it so what you've said about him choosing the evo bike is quite wrong.

The balance of the '06 was certainly upset by the swathe of new parts destined for the '07 'Pedrocycle' which were imposed upon Hayden during that season. As Al correctly points out, Pedrosa was not saddled by this madatory testing programme and he and Mike Leitener were able to request parts which were judged by them to be beneficial.

This is the crux of the argument - please try to understand Tom, because you are so busy being contradictory and refuting other peoples arguments that you express counter opinions seemingly for the sake of it to increase your post tally, and then complain that there are people on this forum who can't handle having their opinions challenged. If you only digest one thing from this post, then please let it be the following Pedrosa had the 05 bike and a base setting which worked well everywhere, and could only be enhanced as the season progressed. Hayden and Benson dutifuly tried to make sense of the supposedly superior all new '06 evo, and were confounded further by the imposition of new concepts and designs for the '07 800 - the irony being that this was to be a bike arguably constructed/destined for Pedrosa, and it was Hayden that ended up being the guinea 'puig'

"the guinea 'puig'"

nice...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 22 2009, 03:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well, firstly it was well documentad at the time that HRC were desperate to beat Yamaha to a 990 title post Rossi, and that their evo RCV was the result of that. It was developed to negate the advantage that Yamaha had over them, particularly with regards to stability into corners. Gibernau and Biaggi turned the bike down at Brno 05 because they didn't want a bike change mid season, but Nicky elected to use it for the 06 season.
The Evo was a mutant. Biaggi and Gibernau both rode the bike at Brno in the test, less than 15 laps each if I remember. Neither of them thought it was any better than the 05 bike and the chatter issue had already been sorted, or at least there was no improvement with the Evo. Additionally, Hayden did not elect to use the Evo for the 2006 season. He openly admitted in an interview that he was not ordered to ride it, but there would be consequences if he didn't.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 22 2009, 03:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Additionally, it would be completely illogical and unrealistic of Honda to make a rookie their number 1 rider and title hope, given Haydens experience and strong 05 seaosn. If the conspiracy theorists are right and Dani was number 1 right away why did he have the same spec bike as the customer riders, while Honda spent money, man power and resources building a seperate bike for one rider, evidently at the expense of their 07 project. The answer is that the evo 990 was in fact a last title push for 06, and allowed Hayden to produce what has been significantly his best season. The bikes track record is right there to see.
The answer is that the Evo was a 212 test dummy. The bike was developed to test bits and pieces for the 212, it is physically smaller than the 211s that Pedrosa, Melandri and Stoner had that season. Additionally, the 211 that Pedrosa and Melandri were running were factory spec, not satellite spec.