Should Ducati sack Hayden?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bunyip @ Apr 21 2009, 03:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>SO, settle down Bonnielass, go and support your misogynistic friend, and apolgies to Marike etc.
Wife/partner I think, which hopefully doesn't preclude friendship but may give some perspective on misogyny.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bunyip @ Apr 21 2009, 03:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>SO, settle down Bonnielass, go and support your misogynistic friend, and apolgies to Marike etc.
Wife/partner I think, which hopefully doesn't preclude friendship but may give some perspective on misogyny.

I agree there appear sometimes to be differential standards regarding personal abuse of other posters, probably mainly of concern only if the forum is taken too seriously, but quite a high proportion of anti-rossi posts (not by you or me) contain all kinds of absurd slurs concerning his sexuality, not usually implying violence admittedly.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>(Bunyip @ Apr 21 2009, 03:12 AM)
SO, settle down Bonnielass, go and support your misogynistic friend, and apolgies to Marike etc.

why do i hate women ??? you really are a .... !!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Apr 21 2009, 02:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I will disagree with both of you, Micheal and Tom. Hayden never had the top HRC machine available. The year he won the championship he did so with an experimental engine that had severe clutch issues while Pedrosa had a standard issue V5 which worked perfect.
I believe you. You are one of the posters to whom I referred that I usually find credible. All I was saying in my discussion with tom was that I did not have knowledge of my own concerning this, as I did not follow the sideline activity as closely in 2006; I am an aging luddite and did not even have a home computer then.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Apr 21 2009, 03:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I will disagree with both of you, Micheal and Tom. Hayden never had the top HRC machine available. The year he won the championship he did so with an experimental engine that had severe clutch issues while Pedrosa had a standard issue V5 which worked perfectly. If Hayden had've had that machine the year would have gone smoother and he may have won the season earlier.

I wholeheartedly disagree, but its another one of those things thats impossible to quantify, so thats that i guess.

I laugh when people always speculate that rider x gets different support to rider y who are on the same team.

well maybe for rossi, and deservedly so being by far and away the #1 man, but as for the others meh they all get equal support.

Well it is just my observation. If it is so (that he only had experimental or second rate machinery available while at HRC) it makes his championship all the more unlikely, more credible and worthy.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 21 2009, 01:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I wholeheartedly disagree, but its another one of those things thats impossible to quantify, so thats that i guess.
Why do you wholeheartedly disagree? on what basis?

The problems with the new clutch were well documented at the time- as was the mountain of other developmental obligations, not to mention the onerous and exhaustive PR that Hayden was burdened with.

Ironic that before this, Sete spent most of his time on the supposedly inferior satellite RC211V bemoaning the lack of factory parts, but when they were availed to him he blamed HRC for using him as a guinea pig Nicky meanwhile, kept his dignity, and his mouth shut.

Pedrosa adapted very quickly to the 990, quicker than Kato IMO, and unhindered by the constant discontinuities of the trial parts that were heaped upon Hayden and Pete Benson to make sense of, was afforded a very sorted pure racing motorcycle -unadulterated by experimentation and constant tampering.

Much of this testing that fell upon Nicky during the '06 season could in fact be quantified -with minimal research. That Dani was not similarly encumbered by testing in '06 is a given - it need not be qualified or quantified.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pinky @ Apr 21 2009, 02:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I laugh when people always speculate that rider x gets different support to rider y who are on the same team.

well maybe for rossi, and deservedly so being by far and away the #1 man, but as for the others meh they all get equal support.
Garbage post...Absolute .........

Racing history is replete with preferential treatment and inequities, favoritism and even nepotism within garages.

Go away for at least decade and learn about this sport, inform yourself, then,...and only then, contemplate airing another opinion on this forum. Better still, just go away.

QUOTE (Pinky @ Apr 21 2009, 02:48 PM)
I laugh when people always speculate that rider x gets different support to rider y who are on the same team.

well maybe for rossi, and deservedly so being by far and away the #1 man, but as for the others meh they all get equal support.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Apr 21 2009, 03:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Garbage post...Absolute .........

Racing history is replete with preferential treatment and inequities, favoritism and even nepotism within garages.

Go away for at least decade and learn about this sport, inform yourself, then,...and only then, contemplate airing another opinion on this forum. Better still, just go away.



Here Here! I couldn't have put that more eloquently myself.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Apr 21 2009, 03:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Racing history is replete with preferential treatment and inequities, favoritism and even nepotism within garages.

Your not saying Nicky gets second class treatment at Ducati...are you?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Apr 21 2009, 03:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Garbage post...Absolute .........

Racing history is replete with preferential treatment and inequities, favoritism and even nepotism within garages.

Go away for at least decade and learn about this sport, inform yourself, then,...and only then, contemplate airing another opinion on this forum. Better still, just go away.


Ive been saying this all along buddy, I think anyone who thinks otherwise about what goes on in the paddock. There is no way that teams are giving all their riders exactly the same parts, like you say, it's never been like that since the year dot.

Sometimes spending a bit of time on Google isnt enough to tell the history of the sport.

Pete

i like ham

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MigsAngel @ Apr 21 2009, 06:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Your not saying Nicky gets second class treatment at Ducati...are you?
Actually yes - but not intentionally or by design on the part of Bologna. Somewhere buried in the darkest depths of the monster that became the Qatar thread, I was speculating over whether the Pupilan crew on that side of the garage was as sorted and efficient as the Gabarini directed team that has so successfully melded and channelled its resources with Stoner. That there are huge disparities in that garage is self evident, but although they are not driven by the same willfully orchestrated dividing ethos that pervades Repsol Honda, they can be just as counter productive.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Apr 21 2009, 12:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Actually yes - but not intentionally or by design on the part of Bologna. Somewhere buried in the darkest depths of the monster that became the Qatar thread, I was speculating over whether the Pupilan crew on that side of the garage was as sorted and efficient as the Gabarini directed team that has so successfully melded and channelled its resources with Stoner. That there are huge disparities in that garage is self evident, but although they are not driven by the same willfully orchestrated dividing ethos that pervades Repsol Honda, they can be just as counter productive.

i like it..

Not far fetched that the tuners on that side are .....

Perhaps Hayden's team so to speak are experimenting more with mapping and things to help him go faster.As he is new and obviously not as fast as he can be,maybe they are trying things they don't know the outcome of to 100%.Perhaps that is the reason for the enginefaliures etc.Who knows?

As biased as this sounds, the problem is the Italian way of working. It isn't efficient. This is obvious to anyone who's spent time in Italy and studied superfluous and indirect Italian language. They're Edison, not Tesla. Rather than honing in on theory, they make tweaks and test the reaction in lap times. I'm sure a good German, Japanese or American engineer could help them work through this quickly. They have the passion and innovative spirit but are missing a rigid cultural structure. The small size of Ducati doesn't help either.

Casey is a phenomenal talent, but he's just not 2 seconds/lap better than everyone else. His last completed dry race of 2006 was Sepang (well into his 2006 season on a track he knew), where he finished 8th, behind the Hondas of Roberts, Hayden and Pedrosa. He was just 3 seconds ahead of Marco. Much of his success was the lucking into a bike he could ride fast.

There is something wrong with the Ducati that only he seems to be able to adjust to. If there were pressure/laser sensors at the chassis, seat, pegs and bars + standard telemetry I'd bet this could all be solved. It may even be something other teams are doing. I'm telling whoever in the Paddock will listen this weekend.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Anders GUZZI @ Apr 21 2009, 07:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Perhaps Hayden's team so to speak are experimenting more with mapping and things to help him go faster.As he is new and obviously not as fast as he can be,maybe they are trying things they don't know the outcome of to 100%.Perhaps that is the reason for the enginefaliures etc.Who knows?
As has been noted by several people on this forum; what works for Casey doesn't seem to work for anyone else, so it's not merely a case of replicating the successful formula from his side of the garage -(even though we are all now fully aware of Nicky propensity to plunder his team mates data ). It must be maddening, and I agree, they are still desperately trying to nail that elusive but considerable potential of the Desmo/Hayden combination. I believe that the whole process is hampered further by poor communication.

Regarding the mapping, Ducati should draft in Alessandra Balducci from the Xerox WSB squad to tinker with Nicky's set up. This has nothing whatsoever to do with improving communication - more enhancing my own shallow viewing pleasure.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AP67 @ Apr 16 2009, 06:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>history will remember hayden as a krj clone
I actually rate KRJR quite highly. He won a WC in between the periods of Doohan and Rossi but managed to do it on the Suzuki. He had the talent, his 2006 season even showed us all that. It would have been nice to see what could have happened if he had the sponsorship connections and landed the Gresini ride rather than Gibernau. I firmly believe he would have been a far more worthy adversary for Rossi to battle with than Gibs.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BEN @ Apr 17 2009, 05:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>27_2007 & Putin have been banned for abusive PM's that were reported to us. There's no room for people here like this.

Proving that members are using multiple aliases is virtually impossible when different IP addresses are being used. The site has a powerful IP look-up function that I have used countless times to try and sort this, it searchs through posts and can identifiy if any member has used the same IP.

I'm still of the opinion that it's CSCVAW who comes back, not Pinky.

I always find it funny how the sites moderation policy gets brought up to suit people situations on threads.
It doesn't get said enough around here. Thanks so much for all the hard work you and the other mods put in, Ben. I don't spend as much time in here as I used to, but I still appreciate this place and all your work the same. Thanks again, Ben.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Apr 20 2009, 07:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This is often overlooked; you can leave rossi out of 2006 and hayden still beat pedrosa on at best as good a bike. It was dani's rookie season, but no-one can argue he is not a talented rider. As has been said, whether nicky can reach a similar level on an 800 is yet to be established, but if he can't this may be more a reflection on the 800 bikes than on him.
This is what I've come to realize. I'm not throwing in the towel on Hayden's season (or Grand Prix career) yet, but I don't think he can ride in the way that the 800s require. Once he adjusted to the GP scene and the injury bug, after the 2004 season, Hayden was consistently amongst the three or four fastest men every weekend. You don't luck into that position for two seasons. He is a very talented rider and extremely fast when he's riding the way he wants to. The 990s suited his style more and offered more options to a situation. The 800s do not have the power to cater to multiple styles, and Hayden's style does not match it presently.

I look forward to 2010 and/or 2011, I think Hayden will be the number one rider at Xerox Ducati. He only spent three seasons in SBK but he ran with Mladin for all three of those years, despite being only 18-21 during the time. Superbike is a formula that allows Hayden's style to shine and I think going back will be the best thing for him. It's time for him to inherit Bayliss's throne, because if he goes to WSBK with Ducati, that's what you'll witness. Another Bayliss.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Apr 20 2009, 07:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't disagree, the final iteration of the rcv in 2006 was a great bike, and it would seem likely the repsol hondas would have been the best examples of same. My statement was in deference to the posters on here whom I find credible on other matters who claim that nicky was disadvantaged in 2006 by being given development parts, dodgy clutches etc; whilst I watched the races in 2006, I didn't follow the intrigues surrounding the racing on the internet or in the specialist press as I do now, so I don't otherwise know whether this is likely or not. A priori whilst nicky should have had a bike as good as dani's it would seem unlikely that it would have been better.
I'm of the belief that the 2006 Evo RC211V was the worst evolution of the bike. The clutch was experimental and many of the parts were early experiments modeled for the 212. Pedrosa and Melandri were given the upgraded, factory spec 2005 211s. Those bikes were the greatest 211s to ever take the grid. And yes, Hayden had that bike available to him but was a rookie in 2003, dogged by injuries and mechanical failures in 2004 and in 2005 he came good and proved to be a consistent top three guy. He's the real deal. Unfortunately his legacy will be tarnished by not being able to mesh with the 800. Much in the same way KRJR's legacy is tarnished by staying with Suzuki for all those years.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Apr 21 2009, 02:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Garbage post...Absolute .........

Racing history is replete with preferential treatment and inequities, favoritism and even nepotism within garages.

Go away for at least decade and learn about this sport, inform yourself, then,...and only then, contemplate airing another opinion on this forum. Better still, just go away.


Ah well, I may as well go slink away for 10 years and learn about the sport I have watched for the last 20 or so years then because I have a different opinion to you Arrabiata1.

IMO and from my knowledge, at the start of each and every year/season all riders within the one team are availed with equal machinery where they are part of the one same factory team (some satellite teams differ as one rider receives higher level equipment to others). How each rider uses and developments that equipment is adecision and direction undertaken by that rider in conjunction with other members of his/her team (generally technicians, engineers and of cours the manager).

Often, throughout a season the factory will develop a component or components intended to enhance the bike and often these are developed at the behest of one or sometimes both of the riders. Generally during development these parts will be made available to one of the factory riders (occasionally a satellite team) in order to test to determine whether the component is a step forward, sideways or backwards. Throughout a year this will occur many times and often involve differing components and different riders.

Ultimately, as the year develops and goes on, it is not uncommon for each rider to develop their machines in totally separate directions to the other rider within their team. This could be in general setup or by utilising components that the second rider does not like/prefer and often by the end of the year the two bikes will resemble the other in colour and shape only.

So yes, it is my understanding that the bikes do generally start identical (or as near as possible when cosmetices are factored) but will be anything but by the end of the year.





Garry