Rumor: Volkswagen Group may sell Ducati

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gui22a said:
Dalligna though Lorenzo would fit Ducati BECAUSE Iannone supposed has a similar style, and Iannone was very competitive on the bike. So a lot of people played on this.
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What the f*ck were they smoking when they thought this?
 
gui22a said:
There is no secret in Ducati's problem, even they know what is going on.

I don't know why bunch of you guys make this so hard to understand.

Dalligna though Lorenzo would fit Ducati BECAUSE Iannone supposed has a similar style, and Iannone was very competitive on the bike. So a lot of people played on this.

The problem of Ducati has nothing to do with chassis (at least directly). If this was the case, Ducati had already fixed, because it would be "easy". It has to do with engine layout eating the room needed for a shorter bike. That is it, simple as that, no need to conspiracy theory about chassis, salad box, geometry, weight distribution, etc.. they KNOW all of that, but there is nothing to do until they have a more compact engine. Now, could you imagine Ducati having a compact engine? For them, this is a big hurdle to overcome.

Watch this .... to help understand where is the "problem".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8eEqoY0GT4

I don't know what will happen to Ducati in the near future but one thing is for sure, they won't challenge for the title anytime soon.
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Casey Stoner himself said in 2012 that Ducati's problems had nothing to do with the engine. I'm inclined to have to agree with his technical assessment as it's been dead accurate always. I don't feel has changed on that front, or rather to the point necessary to challenge for a title.
 
gui22a said:
There is no secret in Ducati's problem, even they know what is going on.

I don't know why bunch of you guys make this so hard to understand.

Dalligna though Lorenzo would fit Ducati BECAUSE Iannone supposed has a similar style, and Iannone was very competitive on the bike. So a lot of people played on this.

The problem of Ducati has nothing to do with chassis (at least directly). If this was the case, Ducati had already fixed, because it would be "easy". It has to do with engine layout eating the room needed for a shorter bike. That is it, simple as that, no need to conspiracy theory about chassis, salad box, geometry, weight distribution, etc.. they KNOW all of that, but there is nothing to do until they have a more compact engine. Now, could you imagine Ducati having a compact engine? For them, this is a big hurdle to overcome.

Watch this .... to help understand where is the "problem".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8eEqoY0GT4

I don't know what will happen to Ducati in the near future but one thing is for sure, they won't challenge for the title anytime soon.
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Who is raising conspiracy theories about chassis?

I am sure Birdman is well aware of the general view that the configuration and characteristics of the L4 engine are likely a fundamental problem for the Ducati including its handling, he is politely asking someone who has proven over the years to have inside knowledge of Ducati about Ducati's current views in regard to their bike without pre-supposing his answer.
 
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michaelm said:
Who is raising conspiracy theories about chassis?

I am sure Birdman is well aware of the genral view that the configuration and characteristics of the L4 engine are likely a fundamental problem for the Ducati including its handling, he is politely asking someone who has proven over the years to have inside knowledge of Ducati about Ducati's current views in regard to their bike without pre-supposing his answer.
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Which way does the crankshaft rotate on the Ducati? If it can be reversed (if necessary) could it bring some of Yamaha's neutrality to the bike?
 
Honda have a huge budget and a compact pneumatic valve engine and yet they are beset with handling woes. There is no easy fix on YouTube, Ducati have proven they are more than willing to think outside of the square so I'm interested to see what they might come up with next.
 
Gaz said:
What the f*ck were they smoking when they thought this?
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Nothing, actually Iannone carries much more corner speed than Dovi and could ride the thing very well, so Dalligna did not think wrong.

JPSLotus said:
Casey Stoner himself said in 2012 that Ducati's problems had nothing to do with the engine. I'm inclined to have to agree with his technical assessment as it's been dead accurate always. I don't feel has changed on that front, or rather to the point necessary to challenge for a title.
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So Casey Stoner said this... humm, tell him he was very wrong since Ducati (Dalligna) completely redesigned the engine for GP15 as the bike had a chronic and severe understeer caused by crankshaft forward rotation and the size of the engine itself preventing the correct weigth distribution.

birdman said:
Honda have a huge budget and a compact pneumatic valve engine and yet they are beset with handling woes. There is no easy fix on YouTube, Ducati have proven they are more than willing to think outside of the square so I'm interested to see what they might come up with next.
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Honda is a better bike to turn no doubt about that. And who the .... is saying it's easy to fix? It's easy to understand not to fix.

michaelm said:
Who is raising conspiracy theories about chassis?

I am sure Birdman is well aware of the general view that the configuration and characteristics of the L4 engine are likely a fundamental problem for the Ducati including its handling, he is politely asking someone who has proven over the years to have inside knowledge of Ducati about Ducati's current views in regard to their bike without pre-supposing his answer.
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I'm not sure about that. Anyway I wasn't talking specifically to him.
 
gui22a said:
Nothing, actually Iannone carries much more corner speed than Dovi and could ride the thing very well, so Dalligna did not think wrong.
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Corner speed is only a part of what makes styles identical and for mine, Ianonne is no Lorenzo (style wise).

Iannone 'may' have Lorenzo like potential in some way but to me, as an observer (no access to data) their styles are different in a lot of ways (and I am prepared to admit that this may be because of the styles required of the bikes)


gui22a said:
Honda is a better bike to turn no doubt about that. And who the .... is saying it's easy to fix? It's easy to understand not to fix.
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One of life's serious mysteries.

Problems can be easily identified ............... fixing them, not so as often (as you well know), the smallest of tweaks in one direction can upset 20 things in the opposite direction.

Oh to be a damn engineer.
 
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Gaz said:
Corner speed is only a part of what makes styles identical and for mine, Ianonne is no Lorenzo (style wise).

Iannone 'may' have Lorenzo like potential in some way but to me, as an observer (no access to data) their styles are different in a lot of ways (and I am prepared to admit that this may be because of the styles required of the bikes)
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Yep, but Dalligna is not inside Lorenzo neural network to know each of the details of his style. We would never know that Lorenzo don't know how to turn a bike with rear brake if he had not signed a contract. Now we all know. He doesn't make a clue how to use a rear brake to turn the bike. Still, carrying corner speed is his best shot as much as Iannone.

But Dalligna is to blame because he said "Ducati have everything needed for Lorenzo to be fast". Not 100% true.


Gaz said:
One of life's serious mysteries.

Problems can be easily identified ............... fixing them, not so as often (as you well know), the smallest of tweaks in one direction can upset 20 things in the opposite direction.

Oh to be a damn engineer.
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And it only gets worse when dealing with real matter. At least if there was a perfect simulator to run in computer, an engineer life could be much easier.

BTW, I can tell you at least in F-1 there is use of simulations through evolutionary algorithms to try to maximize performance. Don't know if in MGP such investment exists.

A cool example here: http://rednuht.org/genetic_cars_2/ (dunno if runs in mobile devices)
 
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gui22a said:
Since 2015 is reversed.
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Thanks for that, I don't think I had ever read that, and am always grateful for input from those with engineering and mechanical expertise since as I imagine is fairly obvious I don't have any myself. Barry who also knows a thing or two about matters mechanical when he is being serious has long held a view that the change from the screamer to the "Big Bang" engine in 2010 was what pushed the Ducati over the edge from being difficult to impossible even for Stoner.

Rather than any chassis conpiracies, what I was discussing on the other thread with JKant in his position of wisdom after the events was what the historical narrative was about the issues with Ducati's bike, and whether the control tyre impacted on all of that.

I summarise perhaps from a biased perspective, but the initial view was that the 2007 bike had a tremendous performance advantage based firstly on electronics such that it required little rider input, and also in Valentino Rossi's opinion anyway as the season progressed, from superior tyres. It then went to the other bikes improving but the Ducati still being equal or better because Stoner could win on it, but Ducati being held back by the flakiness of their lead rider, and lack of development and set-up skills of that lead rider and the Ducati teams. It was only after Rossi and Burgess went there that the chassis was identified as a problem, and the engine thing came pretty much last after the change to the twin spar chassis didn't solve the handling issues. Along the way during the chassis changes Ducati did at one stage contend, rightly or wrongly, that the availability of a suitable tyre would solve most of their issues.

I think pretty much everyone including David Emmett later concluded that the engine, both its configuration/physical dimensions and possibly its performance characteristics, was the biggest problem. FWIW I think the engine is very likely a significant problem myself, but believe it is also possible they may have other issues as well given they only went to an aluminium twin spar chassis which the Japanese manufacturers have been using for many decades in 2012.

The WSBK Ducati, now with a monocoque chassis, doesn't seem to have handling problems, but that of course has their traditional V2/L2 engine. I stand to be corrected particularly by an engineer, but as I understand it they were able to enter/start competing when the premier class went 4-stroke because they could make a V4/L4 essentially by putting two L2s together, hence the limitations in changing the engine configuration to which I presume you were referring.
 
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Ducati should have left GP in 08. They're stupid to stay in a hostile environment. So ....'em. Too dumb to understand they'll never compete against DORossia.

Speaking of, welcome back J4rn0, just in time for VR to be leading the points by attrition.
 
birdman said:
Rider quotes suggest Ducati, despite all the changes, still retains its original DNA understeer. Any idea why that is? Is it the DNA of a Desmo engine? Frame geometry still off? Is the engine really in the classic V position in the frame, or midway between V and L? And lucky last do you have an idea what's in the black box on the tail section? If Ducati unofficially say it's electronics my guess was it definitely isn't electronics.

Lorenzo has been quoted having to use the rear brake a lot, something which is completely foreign to him. I have doubts there is much Gigi can do, in terms of turning the ugly duck into a sweet handling tuning fork swan.

Still considering this is Lorenzo jumping in the deepest of deep ends, in terms of style mismatch, I actually think he is doing ok. Every time he has been really far behind in either testing or race weekends he has dug deep and at least got himself back up into a respectable position. He isn't giving up, obviously the problem will be the Marlborough mans patience.
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What we know is that since the GP15 the understeer is no more aggravated by the physical layout of the engine conditioning the design of the frame: in 2015 the engine was completely redesigned to be more compact, and repositioned in a brand new frame designed around it. At the time Dovi declared that "now the bike turns" (at least compared to the previous Desmosedici that only Stoner had been able to tame).

Still Ducatis have more understeer than other MotoGP bikes. Why? DNA? Yes, in a way. The desmo characteristic is that it can generate not only a lot of high-end horsepower, but also excellent mid-range power and torque, which translates into a very strong traction. Sounds all good, but probably it is this desmo-intrinsic strong traction that still causes a degree of understeer that seems hard to neutralize, if a desmo has to remain a desmo.

This traction-understeer can be managed by the riders though, even if they are not Casey Stoner. Can Lorenzo learn? Why not. But if the problem is complicated by the current generation of tires, that apparently the Desmosedici has trouble digesting, everything becomes more difficult.
 
J4rn0 said:
What we know is that since the GP15 the understeer is no more aggravated by the physical layout of the engine conditioning the design of the frame: in 2015 the engine was completely redesigned to be more compact, and repositioned in a brand new frame designed around it. At the time Dovi declared that "now the bike turns" (at least compared to the previous Desmosedici that only Stoner had been able to tame).

Still Ducatis have more understeer than other MotoGP bikes. Why? DNA? Yes, in a way. The desmo characteristic is that it can generate not only a lot of high-end horsepower, but also excellent mid-range power and torque, which translates into a very strong traction. Sounds all good, but probably it is this desmo-intrinsic strong traction that still causes a degree of understeer that seems hard to neutralize, if a desmo has to remain a desmo.

This traction-understeer can be managed by the riders though, even if they are not Casey Stoner. Can Lorenzo learn? Why not. But if the problem is complicated by the current generation of tires, that apparently the Desmosedici has trouble digesting, everything becomes more difficult.
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Nope. Its still the inherent VSGs of the big bang L4 engine with a set of pistons facing too far out front.

Me and MickD stand by this.;)
 
J4rn0 said:
What we know is that since the GP15 the understeer is no more aggravated by the physical layout of the engine conditioning the design of the frame: in 2015 the engine was completely redesigned to be more compact, and repositioned in a brand new frame designed around it. At the time Dovi declared that "now the bike turns" (at least compared to the previous Desmosedici that only Stoner had been able to tame).

Still Ducatis have more understeer than other MotoGP bikes. Why? DNA? Yes, in a way. The desmo characteristic is that it can generate not only a lot of high-end horsepower, but also excellent mid-range power and torque, which translates into a very strong traction. Sounds all good, but probably it is this desmo-intrinsic strong traction that still causes a degree of understeer that seems hard to neutralize, if a desmo has to remain a desmo.

This traction-understeer can be managed by the riders though, even if they are not Casey Stoner. Can Lorenzo learn? Why not. But if the problem is complicated by the current generation of tires, that apparently the Desmosedici has trouble digesting, everything becomes more difficult.
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Thanks J4rn0. Great to have you back posting, both in general and to tell us what is really going on at Ducati.
 
J4rn0 said:
What we know is that since the GP15 the understeer is no more aggravated by the physical layout of the engine conditioning the design of the frame: in 2015 the engine was completely redesigned to be more compact, and repositioned in a brand new frame designed around it. At the time Dovi declared that "now the bike turns" (at least compared to the previous Desmosedici that only Stoner had been able to tame).

Still Ducatis have more understeer than other MotoGP bikes. Why? DNA? Yes, in a way. The desmo characteristic is that it can generate not only a lot of high-end horsepower, but also excellent mid-range power and torque, which translates into a very strong traction. Sounds all good, but probably it is this desmo-intrinsic strong traction that still causes a degree of understeer that seems hard to neutralize, if a desmo has to remain a desmo.

This traction-understeer can be managed by the riders though, even if they are not Casey Stoner. Can Lorenzo learn? Why not. But if the problem is complicated by the current generation of tires, that apparently the Desmosedici has trouble digesting, everything becomes more difficult.
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Understeer has little to do with traction. Desmodromic valves has absolutely nothing to do with traction.

Understeer is caused by poor weigh distribution (in cars is the main cause), bike length and mainly because of gyro effect. Some time ago a guy named Michael Cyiz (or something as this, I think he died already) created an engine for a MGP bike project (moto cyz) in which half of the crankshaft rotates forward and the other half rotates backwards, cancelling each other. So this solution is perfect because the engine generates zero gyro effect, leaving only the wheels for such fx. Riders that have rode the thing told that it was the most easily handling bike ever ridden. Cyiz patented this and I don't know anymore about it.

But what helped alleviate a lot Ducati understeer was making the engine rotating backwards, so the engine could cancel out some of the fx already cause by the wheels. This together with the size and reposition of the engine made the bike much better to turn, but still hard compared to others.
 
J4rn0 said:
Cheers, Jums...! Nice to find you unchanged! :drinks:
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I'll have you know J, some of my best friends are Italian...

Honestly though, you seem to have a general affinity for Ducati (despite your infamous take they weren't doing anything particularly special for Rossi...other than move heaven and earth) however, why does the manufacturer insist on competing in a series hell bent on ....... them over? Are they so wrapped up in the group think that they are unaware or unable to see the perspective from outside the bubble? The banning of the winglets was again one in a long list of pinpointed Dorna actions effectively resulting in stomping out their efforts and gains. (Note the difference of Jlo's performance with the winglet shod Ducati at Valencia and the brick wall of frustration the next test, a wingletless bike). Even your boy Rossi famously declared, 'Ducati is truly a prototype.' (Of course, he said it as something of a backhanded compliment to disseminate the message that the Ducati was a nightmare to ride and not his own performance.

Why does Ducati insist on racing against Dorna, if racing against Honda, Yamaha, and Rossi is hard enough?

Desmodromic valves: proposed ban
Bridgestone Tires exclusivity: eliminated
Proposed Michelin exclusivity: denied
Engine restrictions: imposed
Fuel restrictions: imposed
Declaration of Open Class: denied
Reintroduction of Michelin: imposed
Winglet mitigation: banned
 
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