Rumor: Volkswagen Group may sell Ducati

danski · May 1, 2017

michaelm said:
The main "conspiracy theory" however has actually concerned the lack of availability of suitable tyres, or perhaps even suitable tyres becoming unavailable, for less fashionable riders and marques.

That's the by product of a stupid single tyre rule that should never have been brought in. Not a conspiracy, just idiocy thinking that massively different bikes can use the same profile and compound.

michaelm · May 1, 2017

danski said:
That's the by product of a stupid single tyre rule that should never have been brought in. Not a conspiracy, just idiocy thinking that massively different bikes can use the same profile and compound.

Good, I am glad you agree. Perhaps you could tell JKant.

J4rn0 · May 1, 2017

gui22a said:
Yes it has some advantages as disadvantages too. Related to efficiency/power, desmo valves is better because the valvetrain is always perfect synchronous to the motion. But the advantage is not that big because modern pneumatic valves are very efficient also. The drawback is that it is a complex system and as such can take precious space and weight too much when we're talking about prototype racing bikes.

But also pneumatic doesn't have to fight spring tension (even if indeed there is also a coil inside a pneumatic valve but is very light and used when the system is turned off)

Of course, in road bikes, desmodromic valves are much better compared to spring conventional. But we're talking MGP here, haha.

I'm not a specialist in valve systems but about your doubt, the pressure inside the cylinder of a pneumatic valve is variable and depends of a range of revs (there is a sensor detecting the piston (what pushes the valve) position and regulating the pressure). What matters the most is that it's adaptable, not as efficient as desmo but very similar, the difference is not that big even in high revs.

Yes, desmo is still better here, but... pneumatic valve system takes a lot less room to work and weights a LOT less. This translate to smaller and lighter units. And we all know a racing bike cannot win only by having some more horses.

I'm not saying Ducati must adopt pneumatic, but...

...none of those systems is the current best. Check EVA (eletromagnetic valve actuation). No need for a mechanical camshaft, which means you can precise regulate valve aperture as you want. No need of moving parts (in valvetrain obviously). No camshaft and no moving parts, no friction, no resistance, nothing... you have a component very, very small and super light, and super precise control that neither desmo nor pneumatic can deliver. Maybe it's time to upgrade the valve system (desmo is something more than 50 years old.. c'mon), the entire engine, focus in compact units. This makes a lot of difference.

Don't think Ducati will ever abandon their desmo. It's true that pneumatic can provide similar advantages (or even better, if the system can be digitally controlled as you say and also designed to be very compact), but pneumatic is not a solution for road bikes (the system has to be charged before a race and then recharged, and constantly checked for leaks because any unwanted pressure drop would literally destroy the engine); whereas Ducati can claim they sell the same engine technology they race in MotoGP, something no other manufacturer can say.

A more likely area in which Ducati could consider a departure from their tradition is cylinder layout (as BMW did when they opted for an IL4 achitecture for their modern 4 cylinders). An IL4 desmo, with the additional frame design flexibility IL4s allow, would be something interesting. The slightly bigger desmo heads would be less of a problem, and there would be more freedom to adjust swingarm length and overall bike length. Not to mention the fact that riders find IL4 bikes easier to ride in general. I know they have considered this option in the past, but it was discarded. They might consider it again if they ever decide to start over from a clean slate.

gui22a · May 1, 2017

J4rn0 said:
Don't think Ducati will ever abandon their desmo. It's true that pneumatic can provide similar advantages (or even better, if the system can be digitally controlled as you say and also designed to be very compact), but pneumatic is not a solution for road bikes (the system has to be charged before a race and then recharged, and constantly checked for leaks because any unwanted pressure drop would literally destroy the engine); whereas Ducati can claim they sell the same engine technology they race in MotoGP, something no other manufacturer can say.

A more likely area in which Ducati could consider a departure from their tradition is cylinder layout (as BMW did when they opted for an IL4 achitecture for their modern 4 cylinders). An IL4 desmo, with the additional frame design flexibility IL4s allow, would be something interesting. The slightly bigger desmo heads would be less of a problem, and there would be more freedom to adjust swingarm length and overall bike length. Not to mention the fact that riders find IL4 bikes easier to ride in general. I know they have considered this option in the past, but it was discarded. They might consider it again if they ever decide to start over from a clean slate.

Could not agree more with you Jarno. Yes, they need desmo in road bikes. It's cheap and better solution for market.

And you hit bullseye. They need an IL4. I didnt know they ever considered one. That make me happy, at least.

The question is, would Phillip Morris wait? Would Ducati really build such engine? (they don't have experience). That would be incredible. I think they don't have choice, it's this or die.

Dr No said:
I was asking about your contention that Desmo has advantages over 15k rpm. You made the claim, I'm just wondering why you chose such a seemingly arbitrary cut-off.
Oh and lol at EVA. hahahaha.

I don't know what you are laughing at but stay tuned. Renault is like mad researching EVA to apply in racing (F1). And they will succeed soon.

p4p1 · May 1, 2017

On top of Renault, Koenisegg are working on camless engines and have had good(according to them) results adapting a camless head to other production engines. Really the idea makes a lot of sense to me. No more having to choose between low down grunt of top end speed, it has huge possibilities for the performance market as long as the electronics aren't prone to failures. From what I've read from Koenisegg it's just a matter of time until they get it right.

Dr No · May 1, 2017

Cargine uses pnuematics, doesn't it?
Renault was trying electro-hydraulic, were they not?

gui22a · May 1, 2017

p4p1 said:
On top of Renault, Koenisegg are working on camless engines and have had good(according to them) results adapting a camless head to other production engines. Really the idea makes a lot of sense to me. No more having to choose between low down grunt of top end speed, it has huge possibilities for the performance market as long as the electronics aren't prone to failures. From what I've read from Koenisegg it's just a matter of time until they get it right.

A camshaft is a bizarre and antiquate thing in a world of modern nanoelectronics and some knowledge (albeit small) of quantum properties. Dynamic valve timing is perfect and needed in a ECO-world where pollution and fuel economy are climbing in the rank of importance. Also, it can act as a traction control much more accurate than the current ones used in racing prototypes. A radical new level of performance can be achieved with this technology. New and different types of engines (wankel) can benefit of this tech and maybe it will help to speed up the end of piston-crankshaft engines giving a breath for combustion engines until we start making massive use of electric automobiles.

It's not a question of "if" but "when" EVA will totally replace current production engines.

As Ducati loves new techs and engines it's a nice opportunity to explore this new world.

Dr No · May 1, 2017

Errr. How would a Wankel benefit from "EVA"?
I think you underestimate the difficulty of achieving electromagnetic valve control and also the inertia of the big car companies. Are you sure Renault is still working on EM? That was a rumour at the start of the 21st century.
There is no doubt of the benefits of having valve events controlled by the ECU...just how that will take place is the question. If anything electromag will be low on the list (ref Cargine, etc)

J4rn0 · May 2, 2017

gui22a said:
Could not agree more with you Jarno. Yes, they need desmo in road bikes. It's cheap and better solution for market.

And you hit bullseye. They need an IL4. I didnt know they ever considered one. That make me happy, at least.

The question is, would Phillip Morris wait? Would Ducati really build such engine? (they don't have experience). That would be incredible. I think they don't have choice, it's this or die.

I don't know what you are laughing at but stay tuned. Renault is like mad researching EVA to apply in racing (F1). And they will succeed soon.

Ducati did build an IL4 125cc prototype (not just the engine but a complete bike) in the early '60s if I'm not wrong, and although it wasn't a desmo it revved at 15,000 rpm. It was on request from Mototrans in Spain, who never raced it though. Anyway an IL4 is a very well known and established architecture, easier to design and build than a V4, shouldn't be a problem for Ducati engineers (they could actually have fun and afford to be creative in the details); regarding tradition even if it is not part of Ducati DNA it is definitely a part of the wider Italian racing tradition, as it was Gilera (and later MV) who pioneered the use of IL4 4-stroke engines in motorcycle GP.

Ultimately the cams will have to go, that's true. Ducati should experiment with something like EVA and try to be the first to implement it in a motorcycle engine, so they would remain innovators as they have been since the '50s with desmo. I never heard that they have been thinking about it though.

AJV80 · May 2, 2017

J4rn0 said:
Ducati did build an IL4 125cc prototype (not just the engine but a complete bike) in the early '60s if I'm not wrong, and although it wasn't a desmo it revved at 15,000 rpm. It was on request from Mototrans in Spain, who never raced it though. Anyway an IL4 is a very well known and established architecture, easier to design and build than a V4, shouldn't be a problem for Ducati engineers (they could actually have fun and afford to be creative in the details); regarding tradition even if it is not part of Ducati DNA it is definitely a part of the wider Italian racing tradition, as it was Gilera (and later MV) who pioneered the use of IL4 4-stroke engines in motorcycle GP.

Ultimately the cams will have to go, that's true. Ducati should experiment with something like EVA and try to be the first to implement it in a motorcycle engine, so they would remain innovators as they have been since the '50s with desmo. I never heard that they have been thinking about it though.

I know Christian Von Koenigsegg has his 'free valve' TM system that they are doing R&D testing on currently. I'm sure many other manufacturers are doing the same behind closed doors also. A camless engine would have loads of efficiency benefits from a timing perspective but battery technology using electric motors may even beat electronic valves to the party ... interesting technology either way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3cFfM3r510

birdman · May 2, 2017

gui22a said:
A camshaft is a bizarre and antiquate thing in a world of modern nanoelectronics and some knowledge (albeit small) of quantum properties. Dynamic valve timing is perfect and needed in a ECO-world where pollution and fuel economy are climbing in the rank of importance. Also, it can act as a traction control much more accurate than the current ones used in racing prototypes. A radical new level of performance can be achieved with this technology. New and different types of engines (wankel) can benefit of this tech and maybe it will help to speed up the end of piston-crankshaft engines giving a breath for combustion engines until we start making massive use of electric automobiles.

It's not a question of "if" but "when" EVA will totally replace current production engines.

As Ducati loves new techs and engines it's a nice opportunity to explore this new world.

Agreed yet I would have thought an exhaust and radiator made purposely to vent over 50% of the potential energy of fossil fuel to the atmosphere in the form of wasted heat has to be about the most illogical idea the human species has managed considering this is 2017 not 1917. MotoGP would be a great place to develop solutions to this, yet what do we get, fuel limits and control tyres? Still profit and all, money makes the world go round.

Dr No · May 2, 2017

AJV80 said:
I know Christian Von Koenigsegg has his 'free valve' TM system that they are doing R&D testing on currently. I'm sure many other manufacturers are doing the same behind closed doors also. A camless engine would have loads of efficiency benefits from a timing perspective but battery technology using electric motors may even beat electronic valves to the party ... interesting technology either way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3cFfM3r510

That's the way I see it. Battery tech is where investors want to go. That said, Qoros has hooked up with Cargine (Koenigsegg) on the camless engine. I still wonder how they can get the valves to seat cleanly and not batter the hell out of the seats.

Arrabbiata1 · May 2, 2017

gui22a said:
I don't know what you are laughing at but stay tuned. Renault is like mad researching EVA to apply in racing (F1). And they will succeed soon.

Apologies if this has been mentioned earlier, but didn't Renault originally develop the pneumatic valve train?

gui22a · May 2, 2017

Dr No said:
Errr. How would a Wankel benefit from "EVA"?
I think you underestimate the difficulty of achieving electromagnetic valve control and also the inertia of the big car companies. Are you sure Renault is still working on EM? That was a rumour at the start of the 21st century.
There is no doubt of the benefits of having valve events controlled by the ECU...just how that will take place is the question. If anything electromag will be low on the list (ref Cargine, etc)

I'm not. I know it's a complex system but it's completely possible. And yes, eletromags valves can be very fast, fast enough for racing engines. Some years ago there was already eletromags valves that are capable of acting (close/open) in less than 3.4 milliseconds. That was close to fast enough for top racing engines. And it is just the beginning.

About rotary engines, EVA (obviously adapted) could help this architecture be more fuel efficient.

.

gui22a · May 2, 2017

Arrabbiata1 said:
Apologies if this has been mentioned earlier, but didn't Renault originally develop the pneumatic valve train?

Yes, Renault loves valves. :giggle:

Dr No · May 2, 2017

gui22a said:
I'm not. I know it's a complex system but it's completely possible. And yes, eletromags valves can be very fast, fast enough for racing engines. Some years ago there was already eletromags valves that are capable of acting (close/open) in less than 3.4 milliseconds. That was close to fast enough for top racing engines. And it is just the beginning.

About rotary engines, EVA (obviously adapted) could help this architecture be more fuel efficient.

.

3.4 ms to open and close?

At 12000rpm (nothing special) the valve will take 122 deg just to open and another 122 deg to close. Nice profile that'll create...
Take that up to 16500 and it's almost taking a full rev to open and to close. Power-city, here we come....ffs

Why would I want to add a valve, EVA or otherwise, to a wankel?

AJV80 · May 3, 2017

Dr No said:
That's the way I see it. Battery tech is where investors want to go. That said, Qoros has hooked up with Cargine (Koenigsegg) on the camless engine. I still wonder how they can get the valves to seat cleanly and not batter the hell out of the seats.

I know that the Koenigsegg system has the ability to not just open and close the valve in a digital manner but can control the speed and curve from which they ramp up and ramp down, open - speed up - slow down - stop open - hold open - accelerate back closed- slow down to close/seat. That said ... being able to control all that at very high RPM ranges would be challenging even just from an inertia POV let alone accuracy and precise resolution needed from the coil actuating the valve. An electrical solenoid is a coil more or less behaving and being controlled much like electrical motor windings ... inertia (being ever so slight with small light weight valves but will increase at higher engine speeds) - with electrical motor control using VVVF drives/inverters they can requires dynamic braking resistor banks or regen units within the control circuit to manage any surplus power being generated from inertia which may make coil control and resolution accuracy more tricky with higher RPM performance engines.

I know Koenigsegg's first R&D test trial was retrofitting their system to an old SAAB, probably to gauge reliability from the system clocking up loads of miles but I wouldnt imagine the SAAB engine would be revving to 17k RPM either. Still very cool .... ... but yeah I see the improvment of battery technology (mass and charge time) being the gatekeeper to everything shifting towards full electric drives.

Cool Blue · May 3, 2017

AJV80 said:
I know that the Koenigsegg system has the ability to not just open and close the valve in a digital manner but can control the speed and curve from which they ramp up and ramp down, open - speed up - slow down - stop open - hold open - accelerate back closed- slow down to close/seat. That said ... being able to control all that at very high RPM ranges would be challenging even just from an inertia POV let alone accuracy and precise resolution needed from the coil actuating the valve. An electrical solenoid is a coil more or less behaving and being controlled much like electrical motor windings ... inertia (being ever so slight with small light weight valves but will increase at higher engine speeds) - with electrical motor control using VVVF drives/inverters they can requires dynamic braking resistor banks or regen units within the control circuit to manage any surplus power being generated from inertia which may make coil control and resolution accuracy more tricky with higher RPM performance engines.

I know Koenigsegg's first R&D test trial was retrofitting their system to an old SAAB, probably to gauge reliability from the system clocking up loads of miles but I wouldnt imagine the SAAB engine would be revving to 17k RPM either. Still very cool .... ... but yeah I see the improvment of battery technology (mass and charge time) being the gatekeeper to everything shifting towards full electric drives.

I heard him say the valves are pneumatic not electric right? Are you sure they profile the valve stroke? pneumatics are not good at that.

EVA is not a big deal if you have enough current, a low inductance power supply and the power electronics to manage it. The physics is exactly the same as position servos so no great leaps there from a tech perspective.

Is this why Vettel named his car Eva by the way?

AJV80 · May 4, 2017

Cool Blue said:
I heard him say the valves are pneumatic not electric right? Are you sure they profile the valve stroke? pneumatics are not good at that.

EVA is not a big deal if you have enough current, a low inductance power supply and the power electronics to manage it. The physics is exactly the same as position servos so no great leaps there from a tech perspective.

Is this why Vettel named his car Eva by the way?

My bad mate, your right, I was sure I saw a video of it years ago with them being all electric ... but I think thats just how I imagined and remembered it over time.

I know they can vary lift, opening and closing times. But you're right they use pneumatics (and tiny springs) to do the heavy lifting with electrical coils to vary timing and lift i assume.

Coil control is nothing ground breaking tech wise but given the size of the solenoid coil you would need to drive an engine valve open and shut it wouldnt imagine it being easy, probably why it hasn't been attempted. Crude example but simply connecting a low excitation current 24VDC relay in a 240VAC 50hz supply by mistake and they have a chattering heart attack then in seconds then melt trying keep up to the 50hz cycle which is about 3000 cycles a minute/ :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bch5B23_pu0

Cool Blue · May 4, 2017

Dr No said:
That's the way I see it. Battery tech is where investors want to go. That said, Qoros has hooked up with Cargine (Koenigsegg) on the camless engine. I still wonder how they can get the valves to seat cleanly and not batter the hell out of the seats.

Mate, check out the video posted by @AJV80. They show the waveform for the valve position and you can see how they slow it down as it approaches the seat. So, it's like a cam lobe with a square front and an initially square back that tapers to a normal profile for the final few (cam shaft) degrees.

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Rumor: Volkswagen Group may sell Ducati

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