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Rumor: Volkswagen Group may sell Ducati

Understeer has little to do with traction. Desmodromic valves has absolutely nothing to do with traction.

Understeer is caused by poor weigh distribution (in cars is the main cause), bike length and mainly because of gyro effect. Some time ago a guy named Michael Cyiz (or something as this, I think he died already) created an engine for a MGP bike project (moto cyz) in which half of the crankshaft rotates forward and the other half rotates backwards, cancelling each other. So this solution is perfect because the engine generates zero gyro effect, leaving only the wheels for such fx. Riders that have rode the thing told that it was the most easily handling bike ever ridden. Cyiz patented this and I don't know anymore about it.

But what helped alleviate a lot Ducati understeer was making the engine rotating backwards, so the engine could cancel out some of the fx already cause by the wheels. This together with the size and reposition of the engine made the bike much better to turn, but still hard compared to others.

I am not an engineer, but I heard from people who know that the desmo, besides allowing very high revs, also has an advantage in mid and low range power and torque (almost zero power loss to drive the valve train, something that even pneumatic valves cannot match) and that produces more traction, which in turn can produce understeer when taking things to the limit (it's harder closing the corner at high speed when your rear wheel insists on pushing you forward). That would explain why riders like Stoner said the frame wasn't the problem.
 
I am not an engineer, but I heard from people who know that the desmo, besides allowing very high revs, also has an advantage in mid and low range power and torque (almost zero power loss to drive the valve train, something that even pneumatic valves cannot match) and that produces more traction, which in turn can produce understeer when taking things to the limit (it's harder closing the corner at high speed when your rear wheel insists on pushing you forward). That would explain why riders like Stoner said the frame wasn't the problem.

Desmo valves indeed have advantages at very high revs, but I don't believe in any significant advantages in mid and low revs. Actually, bellow 15k rpm there is very little difference.
 
Nope. Its still the inherent VSGs of the big bang L4 engine with a set of pistons facing too far out front.

Me and MickD stand by this.;)

I don't even try to understand VSGs, but they say that the big bang gives even more traction, -- so while making it easier for any rider to manage the power, big bang on the desmo could have actually complicated the intrinsic Ducati understeer. In that view, for a unique rider like Stoner, the screamer might have been actually easier.
 
Desmo valves indeed have advantages at very high revs, but I don't believe in any significant advantages in mid and low revs. Actually, bellow 15k rpm there is very little difference.

I am much further from being an engineer, but have always thought on general principles the Desmo valve system must actually have an intrinsic advantage in terms of efficiency/power if not power delivery in a fuel economy formula.
 
Desmo valves indeed have advantages at very high revs, but I don't believe in any significant advantages in mid and low revs. Actually, bellow 15k rpm there is very little difference.

The additional upside of desmo, that often goes overlooked, is that at lower rpm the camshaft does not have to fight the tension of the valve return mechanism (a spring in conventional engines), that has to be strong enough to operate at max rpm and remains constant even at low speeds; reducing frictional losses at lower rpms does produce stronger low end torque. I'm not sure how this relates to pneumatic valves. Is the air pressure constant in those systems? If so, then desmo still would produce more low end torque than them. Or maybe pneumatic systems are even more flexible and can be calibrated to offer optimal response at all rpms?
 
I'll have you know J, some of my best friends are Italian...

Honestly though, you seem to have a general affinity for Ducati (despite your infamous take they weren't doing anything particularly special for Rossi...other than move heaven and earth) however, why does the manufacturer insist on competing in a series hell bent on ....... them over? Are they so wrapped up in the group think that they are unaware or unable to see the perspective from outside the bubble? The banning of the winglets was again one in a long list of pinpointed Dorna actions effectively resulting in stomping out their efforts and gains. (Note the difference of Jlo's performance with the winglet shod Ducati at Valencia and the brick wall of frustration the next test, a wingletless bike). Even your boy Rossi famously declared, 'Ducati is truly a prototype.' (Of course, he said it as something of a backhanded compliment to disseminate the message that the Ducati was a nightmare to ride and not his own performance.

Why does Ducati insist on racing against Dorna, if racing against Honda, Yamaha, and Rossi is hard enough?

Desmodromic valves: proposed ban
Bridgestone Tires exclusivity: eliminated
Proposed Michelin exclusivity: denied
Engine restrictions: imposed
Fuel restrictions: imposed
Declaration of Open Class: denied
Reintroduction of Michelin: imposed
Winglet mitigation: banned

Jums, I always said that Ducati would do everything for Ducati, nothing for Rossi per se. But you don't want to get that point. Ducati have never been Rossi's servants... No manufacturer would ever be any rider's servants, by the way. Same applies to Lorenzo now.

Why shouldn't Ducati race? They always did, well before Dorna and before the Japanese became dominant, and I bet they'll compete in races as long as they last. Hopefully winning some. :happy:
 
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Thanks J4rn0. Great to have you back posting, both in general and to tell us what is really going on at Ducati.

I'm enjoying a holiday after many months of full immersion in work, so I thought, let's see what my old friends at Powerslide are saying... A Ducati thread is always difficult to resist. :)
 
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I'm enjoying a holiday after many months of full immersion in work, so I thought, let's see what my old friends at Powerslide are saying... A Ducati thread is always difficult to resist. :)

I hope you return more often to help keep the tinfoil hat society in check.
 
Jums, I always said that Ducati would do everything for Ducati, nothing for Rossi per se. But you don't want to get that point. Ducati have never been Rossi's servants... No manufacturer would ever be any rider's servants, by the way. Same applies to Lorenzo now.

Why shouldn't Ducati race? They always did, well before Dorna and before the Japanese became dominant, and I bet they'll compete in races as long as they last. Hopefully winning some. :happy:

Yes. Saying why should Ducati race is to question why anyone at all (other than Honda and Yamaha) should race. It improves the breed and is great marketing.
 
I hope you return more often to help keep the tinfoil hat society in check.

Yes, a voice of reason with a proven track record in regard to matters Ducati saying that the Michelin control tyre is problematic for Ducati should really quieten us down. IKant must feel completely vindicated.
 
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Desmo valves indeed have advantages at very high revs, but I don't believe in any significant advantages in mid and low revs. Actually, bellow 15k rpm there is very little difference.

How do you come to this conclusion?
 
I am much further from being an engineer, but have always thought on general principles the Desmo valve system must actually have an intrinsic advantage in terms of efficiency/power if not power delivery in a fuel economy formula.

You would need a fmep v rev curve to support that argument, anyone ever seen one? That is, of a desmo v pneumo v spring engine with everything else as equal as possible?
 
I am much further from being an engineer, but have always thought on general principles the Desmo valve system must actually have an intrinsic advantage in terms of efficiency/power if not power delivery in a fuel economy formula.

Yes it has some advantages as disadvantages too. Related to efficiency/power, desmo valves is better because the valvetrain is always perfect synchronous to the motion. But the advantage is not that big because modern pneumatic valves are very efficient also. The drawback is that it is a complex system and as such can take precious space and weight too much when we're talking about prototype racing bikes.

The additional upside of desmo, that often goes overlooked, is that at lower rpm the camshaft does not have to fight the tension of the valve return mechanism (a spring in conventional engines), that has to be strong enough to operate at max rpm and remains constant even at low speeds; reducing frictional losses at lower rpms does produce stronger low end torque. I'm not sure how this relates to pneumatic valves. Is the air pressure constant in those systems? If so, then desmo still would produce more low end torque than them. Or maybe pneumatic systems are even more flexible and can be calibrated to offer optimal response at all rpms?

But also pneumatic doesn't have to fight spring tension (even if indeed there is also a coil inside a pneumatic valve but is very light and used when the system is turned off)

Of course, in road bikes, desmodromic valves are much better compared to spring conventional. But we're talking MGP here, haha.

I'm not a specialist in valve systems but about your doubt, the pressure inside the cylinder of a pneumatic valve is variable and depends of a range of revs (there is a sensor detecting the piston (what pushes the valve) position and regulating the pressure). What matters the most is that it's adaptable, not as efficient as desmo but very similar, the difference is not that big even in high revs.

Yes, desmo is still better here, but... pneumatic valve system takes a lot less room to work and weights a LOT less. This translate to smaller and lighter units. And we all know a racing bike cannot win only by having some more horses.

I'm not saying Ducati must adopt pneumatic, but...

...none of those systems is the current best. Check EVA (eletromagnetic valve actuation). No need for a mechanical camshaft, which means you can precise regulate valve aperture as you want. No need of moving parts (in valvetrain obviously). No camshaft and no moving parts, no friction, no resistance, nothing... you have a component very, very small and super light, and super precise control that neither desmo nor pneumatic can deliver. Maybe it's time to upgrade the valve system (desmo is something more than 50 years old.. c'mon), the entire engine, focus in compact units. This makes a lot of difference.
 
Because Ducati made a very big effort trying to stop the limiting rev rule imposition (it would limit revs @ 16.5k).

I was asking about your contention that Desmo has advantages over 15k rpm. You made the claim, I'm just wondering why you chose such a seemingly arbitrary cut-off.
Oh and lol at EVA. hahahaha.
 
Yes, a voice of reason with a proven track record in regard to matters Ducati saying that the Michelin control tyre is problematic for Ducati should really quieten us down. IKant must feel completely vindicated.

Good try but I think you actually know I was referring to the crazier theories regarding every decision being made to favour one rider.
I'm surprised nobody has yet put forward a foil hat theory about special tarmac surfaces! Everything else seems to be covered.

:fishing1:
 
Good try but I think you actually know I was referring to the crazier theories regarding every decision being made to favour one rider.
I'm surprised nobody has yet put forward a foil hat theory about special tarmac surfaces! Everything else seems to be covered.

:fishing1:

The main "conspiracy theory" however has actually concerned the lack of availability of suitable tyres, or perhaps even suitable tyres becoming unavailable, for less fashionable riders and marques.
 

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