Rossi's Legacy Tainted

J4rn0 said:

Great Champions' reputations do NOT get tainted because eventually they succumb to younger riders, Bun -- otherwise all great champions would have tainted reputations...



I think Valentino is truly great because after all he's won and all the money he's made he's still there at 32, ready to offer himself to the challenge of younger and hungry champions. He could have been off after 2005 and remained an "untainted" king (in your view) with as many titles as Doohan, but he didn't. He's still there serving as "target" -- as Kropotkin rightly says -- for an entire generation of younger riders, and now he is even ready to chase them. That fact alone deserves respect.



Rossi's only problem is that his captive fans consider him to be God, something that's not possible. His haters (or better, the haters of his captive fans) will then attack him every time he does not perform like a God. Difficult position! But for me, if he manages top 3 results towards the end of this season and then will be capable to fight for the title in 2012, it will be another of his stunning achievements.

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All absolutely true. I had thought 2009 was the logical time for him to retire, he even said before the season it would make him 2:1 over stoner. As I said earlier in the thread lorenzo or stoner at best can be equal to him in their premier class careers after 2011, and I suspect he will be a strong chance of a deciding win in 2012 as you say if this does eventuate.



I am interested as to what is going on in the italian press and whether he is copping any flak as has been suggested; I had not envisaged less than full support from the ducatistas/ducatisti.

J4rn0 said:

Great Champions' reputations do NOT get tainted because eventually they succumb to younger riders, Bun -- otherwise all great champions would have tainted reputations...



I think Valentino is truly great because after all he's won and all the money he's made he's still there at 32, ready to offer himself to the challenge of younger and hungry champions. He could have been off after 2005 and remained an "untainted" king (in your view) with as many titles as Doohan, but he didn't. He's still there serving as "target" -- as Kropotkin rightly says -- for an entire generation of younger riders, and now he is even ready to chase them. That fact alone deserves respect.



Rossi's only problem is that his captive fans consider him to be God, something that's not possible. His haters (or better, the haters of his captive fans) will then attack him every time he does not perform like a God. Difficult position! But for me, if he manages top 3 results towards the end of this season and then will be capable to fight for the title in 2012, it will be another of his stunning achievements.

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^^ easily the best post for a long time

Bunyip said:

First sensible rebuttal!



All true, but my main point is that if he hadn,t made the move to Ducati his record would have looked so much better. His ego

didn,t let himself stay at Yamaha and compete on an equal

footing. No matter how justified poor results in 2011 may be

(because the Duke is a dog) it will still make his CV the worse

for viewing.

You could say..........out of the frying pan, into the fire.



You make some valid points, but I think I do also (humble

opinion).

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backpedal........much. Hardly a rebuttal more like a excellent summary to a very ordinary thread

Bunyip said:

You,ve been lurking around for days with nothing constructive to say.......while jrno wafts in and immediately hits on some relevant points.



Why do you even bother young Talpa

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my line of argument has been directed at your true motivation for this thread, as is with pretty much all of your viewpoints. All of j4no points have been reflected before many times by him, by myself and others.

Was Rossi on crack when he went into a tirade about his rivalS? I know Bunny already posted it, but I was reading them again and the first thought that occurred to me was: "THIS MOTHATFUKER IS CHARLIE SHEEN!"

An excerpt taken from the show and transcribed by Sportmediaset.com sees Rossi call former FIAT Yamaha team-mate 'unpleasant', while Stoner – though the favourite in Rossi's eyes – is let down by often 'repeating the same mistakes'.



“Stoner is the favourite for the championship, but I also say that to bring a jinx on him,” he jokes. “I give him 10 out of 10 for speed and talent, but a bit less for tactics and cunning. He is a mad man who often repeats the same mistake.



“Jorge is a great because everybody agrees about him in the sense that everybody thinks he is unpleasant. He is strong, he deserves 9.5. I won't say he is intelligent because that's a strong word. Let's say he is crafty.”



Rossi also touches upon his Ducati team-mate Hayden, revealing there will not be a return of the infamous 'wall' that split himself and Lorenzo in the Yamaha pit garage.



“Hayden is strong, he deserves an 8. He is my team-mate and therefore is my first rival. The wall? With Hayden there won't be one, whereas there was with Lorenzo because I was hoping to not teach him all of my tricks. That is something that generated so much controversy, but things passed from one side to the other anyway.



“Simoncelli deserves 8.5,” he says moving on to his friend. “He still needs to show more, but he has a very quick Honda and he will certainly be a thorn in my side.”



Finally, Rossi harks back to his bitter rivalry with countryman Max Biaggi, claiming the reigning World Superbike Champion didn't learn how to deal with defeat.



“I look back on those fights with fondness,” he adds. “Away from the track, he used various tricks to try and destabilise me. Knowing how to lose is one of the most difficult things and Biaggi was never very good at that.”

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WHAT A ....... MELTDOWN!



Rossi--the new Charlie Sheen! CLICK ME MOTHAFUKA

Bunyip said:

First sensible rebuttal!



All true, but my main point is that if he hadn,t made the move to Ducati his record would have looked so much better. His ego didn,t let himself stay at Yamaha and compete on an equal footing. No matter how justified poor results in 2011 may be (because the Duke is a dog) it will still make his CV the worse for viewing.



You could say..........out of the frying pan, into the fire.



You make some valid points, but I think I do also (humble opinion).

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Buny,



I think staying in Yamaha might have made it more 'tainted' in my opinion. In 2010, he had a valid excuse of injury. But think of what will happen if Jorge beats him in 2011 again with the same bike (which has a realistic chance)? Ducati, is a proven difficult-to-ride beast and any loss of form for 2011 can be atleast partially attributed to the bike as the testing restrictions come in the way of adapting to a difficult bike very easily. In 2012, I think he hope his experience with 1000cc s will give him a definite advantage over his rivals.



EDIT:



So the options at the end of 2010 for Rossi were

1. Stay with Yamaha - at the risk of losing again to Lorenzo given he demands equal or preferential treatment by virtue of his championship

2. Move to Honda - a highly risky option again. By the time he made up his mind on the options, Stoner has already signed with Honda. Going to Honda even after this means, he would have to take care of two aliens - Stoner (who can be very fast on any bike) and Pedrosa (who has significant political clout thanks to Puig).

3. Move to Ducati - A proven career killer. So even if he doesn't set the world on fire initially, people would say it because Ducati is .... (and I believe that ). Especially since his team mate will be Hayden whom his rates at 8 (where as he rates Lorenzo 9.5 and Stoner 10)

4. Suzuki - Is that even an option?



The problems Valentino faces are a deflation of ego and slight (only slight and short term) undermining of his 'legend' status. I would say getting beaten by a team mate can cause the above problems more than under performing on a 'difficult' bike.



So I think Ducati is a logical and sensible choice for Valentino.



Cheers

Renjith

Jumkie said:

Was Rossi on crack when he went into a tirade about his rival? I know Bunny already posted it, but I was reading them again and the first thought that occurred to me was: "THIS MOTHATFUKER IS CHARLIE SHEEN!"









Rossi--the new Charlie Sheen! CLICK ME MOTHAFUKA

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Talpa said:

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is right. Plus I'm having an early nightcap with a new tequila called Tesoro (means Treasure in Mexican, compliments of CK). Which is making everything funnier!



Go Rossi! Go Nicky! Go Ducati! (Yeah, well, what can I say, I'm a Ducati man).



(Oh, by the way, today was the first day of practice for AMA, a couple of Ducatis were at the top of the charts. Holy ...., is it possible that a Ducati can win the WSBK opener, and the AMA opener, and and and............... the MotoGP opener?)



.... you Dani, and your ....... manager! .... Repsol, and .... Dorna, and .... Spain in general terms (except Elias Lorenzo & Marquez, and the few nice people that live there) .... you Tom (I don't know, I guess for old times sake).











Edit: and .... off Barry-back-it-in-your-...-Manilo!



Edit2: oh yeah, and all you ....... not coming to Laguna Seca this year are gay! I have a big secret about this year, and I'm not tell any of you homos. But when I tell you, you're gonna wish you came to Laguna.

Jumkie said:

is right. Plus I'm having an early nightcap with a new tequila called Tesoro (means Treasure in Mexican, compliments of CK). Which is making everything funnier!



Go Rossi! Go Nicky! Go Ducati! (Yeah, well, what can I say, I'm a Ducati man).



(Oh, by the way, today was the first day of practice for AMA, a couple of Ducatis were at the top of the charts. Holy ...., is it possible that a Ducati can win the WSBK opener, and the AMA opener, and and and............... the MotoGP opener?)



.... you Dani, and your ....... manager! .... Repsol, and .... Dorna, and .... Spain in general terms (except Elias Lorenzo & Marquez, and the few nice people that live there) .... you Tom (I don't know, I guess for old times sake).











Edit: and .... off Barry-back-it-in-your-...-Manilo!



Edit2: oh yeah, and all you ....... not coming to Laguna Seca this year are gay! I have a big secret about this year, and I'm not tell any of you homos. But when I tell you, you're gonna wish you came to Laguna.

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you give away wildcards to ride?count me in i'll book a flight then







but whoa, seriously this intervview has me upset,.... like that slowly makes me dislike rossi oO

i know often things get translated wrong and stuff but rating other riders in numbers?i know he doesn't tell us what he thinks his number is but damn....thats too arrogant

the first bit with stoner okay,i got that , and many people say the same thing that its better to have a rossi that knows what the bike is safely capable of than a stoner who walks on knifes edge till he throws it away but everything after that.....

i expected the lorenzo stuff,i'd be ...... up too if my teammate drove me out of yamaha but damn,especially thats a slap in nickys face

i hope he shows him next year how dangerous a number 8 can be

Rossi's legacy wont be tainted unless he does something extremely unpopular between now and the end of his career. It is easy to say that we have recently come to realize that he is not signficantly better or worse than Stoner and Lorenzo, but he's still competing with them and winning titles. And thats after the total domination of the sport he held before hand. Even if he never wins another race, injury or not it will most likely be seen as one challenge too far and he'll be admired for remaining ambitious and motivated for as long as possible.

Tom said:

Rossi's legacy wont be tainted unless he does something extremely unpopular between now and the end of his career. It is easy to say that we have recently come to realize that he is not signficantly better or worse than Stoner and Lorenzo, but he's still competing with them and winning titles. And thats after the total domination of the sport he held before hand. Even if he never wins another race, injury or not it will most likely be seen as one challenge too far and he'll be admired for remaining ambitious and motivated for as long as possible.

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totally agree with that , i guess "tainted legacy" is a bit strong but i can certainly relate to anybody who sees paralells to another super ego in motorsports with big eyebrows.

rossi is a hero amongst his fans not "only" because he is such a great rider but because of his charisma and statements like those drive away some fans,most certainly me.

cliché guevara said:

rossi is a hero amongst his fans not "only" because he is such a great rider but because of his charisma and statements like those drive away some fans,most certainly me.

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I see where you are coming from but i wouldn't take his comments all that seriously. They were made in an interview on some silly Italian TV show where no doubt he is having his ego inflated and the audience and interviewer are wanting something to cheer about. He is always going to rise to the occasion in that scenario, i'd but it down more as banter than a serious shot at his rivals. Remember this isn't something he is saying in racing circles or even in the paddock, this is mainstream media and he is just playing to their want of something to sensationalize. Casey and Jorge aren't going to lose any sleep over it.

Keshav said:

Stoner's really going to have to learn to hold something in reserve - keep the crashes to

a minimum. He must know that Dani's going to pull all the stops out this year. I think it's

a great scenario. Stoner's more mature - and hopefully will dial back the win-it-or-bin-it

style. If Lorenzo continues to be down on HP - he'll have to resort to Rossi-style

Laguna-esque race craft to keep Pedrosa at bay. I reckon Lorenzo is the guy with

the most pressure coming from the greatest number of directions this year. Should

be a real test of character.

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In my opinion you can ride the Honda all the way up to the limit. With the Ducati you have to jump past the bit before the limit where the bike does not work. Because of this there is no holding a bit back on the Ducati. Therefore I do think that Stoner will be able to show his race craft by holding back what he needs to to be consistent but be able to ramp it right up to the limit when ever he needs to progress to the front.







The talk about great racers never being tainted. My view of Schumachers legacy is tainted after one incident last season when he nearly ran Barrichello into the wall. That moment ended it for me with him. I never expected him to come back and win and it would have never bothered me if he hadn't. But that incident has tarnished him for good for me.

Bunyip said:

All true, but my main point is that if he hadn,t made the move to Ducati his record would have looked so much better.

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To date his record has not changed one little bit. If he comes 5th in the first three races and wins the fourth fifth and sixth, then credit is due where credit is due. He will (together with his team) overcome probably the biggest challenge of his life.

You are talking as though he has come 11th in the season rather than a test.

Jumkie said:

Edit: and .... off Barry-back-it-in-your-...-Manilo!

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Wow! way to chuck a wobbly at me ....... it was all a bit of fun Jum ......... besides you started it! ........ no need to take to the booze over it though



BTW ...... what does a Manilo mean?

[quote name='cliché guevara' timestamp='1299834144' post=

i know often things get translated wrong and stuff but rating other riders in numbers?i know he doesn't tell us what he thinks his number is but damn....thatsZ too arrogant



[/quote]



So I take it that you have never been with mates and rated girls out of 10?

woody996 said:

To date his record has not changed one little bit. If he comes 5th in the first three races and wins the fourth fifth and sixth, then credit is due where credit is due. He will (together with his team) overcome probably the biggest challenge of his life.

You are talking as though he has come 11th in the season rather than a test.

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Try to understand. Based on testing alone we can reasonably predict that Rossi isn't going be able to win his first race with the new team, like he did in 2004. The fact that he is in this position proves beyond doubt that all of his world titles are invalid, and should he beat Hayden this year to ONLY reason will be Dorna and Ducati's preferential treatment. DePuniet has been the best motogp rider for years, if only it was an authentic competition istead of a latin soap opera with japanese props we would all know it by now.

woody996 said:

So I take it that you have never been with mates and rated girls out of 10?

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sure but thats not the point

i don't rate my friends and myself



if we want to stay on the girls example this would be like heidi klum going " well tyra banks is obviously not that hot, shes only a 8 " while implying that shes a ten.

that would make one arrogant ..... right





@ tom

yes i know that those words aren't to be taken too seriously judging from the context in which they were spoken.

but i kinda know that rossi is really convinced deep down inside that the other riders aren't in the same league and that makes him arrogant in my eyes whereas i can't recall or imagine doohan ever ever talking down his opponents