Rossi's Legacy Tainted

Kropotkin · Mar 10, 2011

povol said:
So, is it just Rossi bucking the trend, or do other riders prefer 1 year contracts

Generally, it is more about what manufacturers offer, not what riders want. Riders generally prefer longer contracts, as did Yamaha.

Jumkie · Mar 10, 2011

Kropotkin said:
Generally, it is more about what manufacturers offer, not what riders want. Riders generally prefer longer contracts, as did Yamaha.

Krops, first of all, thanks for your candid replies, I'm always quite impressed. Second, I know this is off topic (actually maybe not since Rossi might stand the most to gain) but; when do you think we will see the first 2012 bike on the track being tested? As I recall (maybe wrong) but Ducati started testing their 800 well before everybody else and it seemed to pay off in the 07 season. Do you think Duc will again be the first? I know you had said Ducati will throw everything at their 800 this year because they must, but at what point do you think (prudent or not) will they start preparing their 2012 bike going, as I think at some point it may be the best bet for a swan song to cap Rossi's career.

Kropotkin · Mar 10, 2011

Jumkie said:
Krops, first of all, thanks for your candid replies, I'm always quite impressed. Second, I know this is off topic (actually maybe not since Rossi might stand the most to gain) but; when do you think we will see the first 2012 bike on the track being tested? As I recall (maybe wrong) but Ducati started testing their 800 well before everybody else and it seemed to pay off in the 07 season. Do you think Duc will again be the first? I know you had said Ducati will throw everything at their 800 this year because they must, but at one point do you think (prudent or not) will they start preparing their 2012 bike going as I think at some point it may be the best bet for a swan song to cap Rossi's career.

Mugello (turns out I was wrong, there will be a Mugello test after all), and then Brno for sure. But I expect Franco Battaini to be riding the bike at Mugello in a month or so at a private test. I'm going to try to find out more once I get to Qatar.

Jumkie · Mar 10, 2011

Kropotkin said:
Mugello (turns out I was wrong, there will be a Mugello test after all), and then Brno for sure. But I expect Franco Battaini to be riding the bike at Mugello in a month or so at a private test. I'm going to try to find out more once I get to Qatar.

Thanks, as I recall, Ducati tested their 800 at Brno. I think Loris did (rules being less restricted). Ducati had something close to two dozen engines ready by summer (correct me if I'm wrong). That's a grip of engines, and I'm thinking they will look back at their success and try to duplicate it by starting early again. Even though they are a small factory, I'm thinking with the extra sponsorship and urgency for Rossi to go out on what would be an Earth moving title if attained, that all the stops will be out.

povol · Mar 10, 2011

Jumkie said:
Thanks, as I recall, Ducati tested their 800 at Brno. I think Loris did (rules being less restricted). Ducati had something close to two dozen engines ready by summer (correct me if I'm wrong). That's a grip of engines, and I'm thinking they will look back at their success and try to duplicate it by starting early again. Even though they are a small factory, I'm thinking with the extra sponsorship and urgency for Rossi to go out on what would be an Earth moving title if attained, that all the stops will be out.

Im not sure starting early is really what got Ducati a leg up in 07. Their advantage was outright speed, and Casey being able to stay close enough to the competition,where he could then use the speed. Since the other manufacturers have gone to a pneumatic valve train,Ducati's speed advantage is no longer a deciding factor, especially with Honda, who have surpassed the Duc in power. Yes, they are still faster than the Yamaha's and Suzuki's, but its not the blow by you like you were sitting still kind of fast. They have lost the 2 biggest factors of their 07 success, the only rider to date who could keep the competition close enough to exercise the power advantage, and the power advantage itself.

Keshav · Mar 10, 2011

Funny but with all the talk of Stoner having the championship to lose... nobody's mentioned

Pedrosa being able to take advantage of the super-duper clutch/transmission. I'm guessing

this'll give him a leg up on Lorenzo - even if Yamaha does pull a HP rabbit out of a hat -

which should make for good racing. I expect there's going to be a lot of Lorenzo, Pedrosa

and Spies battling for 2nd and 2rd - with Stoner doing the usual.

Mental Anarchist · Mar 10, 2011

BHarvey said:
The talk of Yamaha making Rossi look ordinary is sort of the same treatment Edwards got.

Edwards was great in testing because of his consistency and was Michelin's top tire tester so he has a feel for when something is different and what it means.

When Rossi was upfront Edwards was no where and when Rossi was having problems with the bike/tires/injury Edwards was immediately up front.

Sort of makes you wonder how hard the guys that aren't the teams #1 have it and if they actually get the same treatment/equipment.

The only real way to determine who is best is to put them on identical (as can be prepared) motorcycles.

This exact same scenario played out in 2010 in the Repsol Honda Team. The weekend that Pedrosa was injured Dovi went from back in the pack in the practice session Pedrosa rode and then after the injury with no Pedrosa, Dovi was immediately fast and running at the top of the times.

Edwards was always there purely as Rossi's test ..... and he knew it. He never got any credit for it but that was his role.

Jumkie · Mar 10, 2011

Keshav said:
Funny but with all the talk of Stoner having the championship to lose... nobody's mentioned

Pedrosa being able to take advantage of the super-duper clutch/transmission. I'm guessing

this'll give him a leg up on Lorenzo - even if Yamaha does pull a HP rabbit out of a hat -

which should make for good racing. I expect there's going to be a lot of Lorenzo, Pedrosa

and Spies battling for 2nd and 2rd - with Stoner doing the usual.

Kesh, you just made my blood run cold. That's the only thing that keeps me up at night. Thinking that Stoner will have a few crashes and hand the title to Pedro. NOOOOOOOO!

BHarvey · Mar 10, 2011

Mental Anarchist said:
This exact same scenario played out in 2010 in the Repsol Honda Team. The weekend that Pedrosa was injured Dovi went from back in the pack in the practice session Pedrosa rode and then after the injury with no Pedrosa, Dovi was immediately fast and running at the top of the times.

Edwards was always there purely as Rossi's test ..... and he knew it. He never got any credit for it but that was his role.

Wonder who will get 'LEAD' at HRC and get that preferred treatment. That might be why CS and DP are pushing hard before the season begins, to establish who is boss.

Keshav · Mar 10, 2011

Renjith said:
I read the original post.

His points were

- Rossi was made to look ordinary compared to Lorenzo. Even though this involves the Grey area of shoulder injury, I partially agree with this (only for 2010 though). This is the past

- Rossi's legacy is further tainted by his bad performance on Ducati. It is this point I have objection with.

i) If this was based on the past performance, he only has Rossi's 2 preseason test data available to make this comment. Then I would like to say that a legacy is not built/tainted on posting fast/slow laps during pre-season test. Heck, do you even remember who was the 'legend' 10 years back? I don't remember. I consider legacies to be built on memorable performances thorough out a significant amount of time.

ii) If this was based on predictions that Rossi is bound to fail then, I would say that it is based on future - not the history.

I've been following the sport since 1979. And I remember tons of stuff without the benefit of Wikipedia. Others here can say

the same. If you don't know who the top riders were 10 years ago - you might want to take some time and do your homework.

If you base arguments on a pangloss, superficial knowledge of the sport - don't expect people to take you seriously. The original post said nothing about any certainty that Rossi would fail. It said that he's not looking good thus far

and prospects don't seem good - and that he brought this upon himself. Tho - should he do poorly over the season - it will do his reputation no good.

Mick D · Mar 10, 2011

Bunyip said:
I know we haven,t even had race one yet, but it would appear to all but the most faithful or delusional Rossi-fans that Rossi is in for a tough 2011.

The biggest problem for Rossi is that he has finally put himself into the situation where he can be closely compared with another one of his main two rivals. On the Yamaha he was struggling to show superior talent to Lorenzo with equal equipment, to the point that he initially had the "wall " created ,and then subsequently demanded Lorenzos removal from the team. When that didn,t happen his only option was to move to a Stoner-free Ducati team.

Rossi saw Stoner achieve reasonably good results over the years, including many victories at the end of 2010, so Rossis ego made him believe that he could do the same or better on the same bike. This will be his undoing. It was bad enough for him not to dominate Lorenzo, but it is far far worse for him to be seen as inferior to Stoner on the same bike.

This quote is telling.....

"I'd split this group in two factions: one part is made of those who have always been against me, people who don't like me, people who supported [Max] Biaggi first, then [Sete] Gibernau, and then [Casey] Stoner," said Rossi.

"The excuse was that Casey rode for Ducati, but the truth is these people don't like me. There's not much I can do about it, I must accept this situation.

"As for the other part, it's a group of Ducati fans who have always seen me as a rival, so they now struggle to accept me atop a Ducati. Overall, it's people who haven't looked at this union with favour. These are fans I would like to convince and win over with results and with the races."

.............sounds like he is really under pressure, I think largely because he cannot do what Casey could do on the Ducati, and the great Italian dream of an Italian winning on an Italian bike seems a million miles away.

There must be a lot of regrets already........leaving the brilliant Yamaha for the pig-Ducati, for accusing Stoner of not trying hard enough last year. Surely battling Lorenzo on equal footing was a far better situation than the current scenario where he could just be making up the numbers, something the "great Valentino" would never have contemplated.

As Jumkie has stated, Rossi has been the favoured one over the years..........the best bike, special tyres etec etc, Yes, the move to Yamaha was bold, but with JB he always had the trump card to play, and also in those days the opposition wasn,t as strong.

Whatever the case, Rossi (mostly deservedly) built up a reputation as a riding God and became to be regarded as probably the best rider ever. Now that reputation looks to being tarnished to a large degree. If his results are as poor this year as we fear, then Rossis riding skills will (unfairly) be questioned. If there is general recognition that the Ducati really is a pig, then many may say that Rossis famed development and setup skills are not quite what we thought. Already on this , and other, forums the mood has changed. 3 years ago it was almost universally accepted that Rossi lost 2007 because of a distinct bike disadvantage. Now people are not so sure. Except for fans like Talpa.

Talpa hates Stoner, and that hate really seems quite pathological at times. Talpa has argued that Stoner has been ungenerous, he whinges, he blows his stack. Some of this may be true.....I believe in the heat of the moment he has "blown up". I think that he has had a huge resentment of the underplaying of his skills and this has led to a bit of a siege mentality. In hindsight it would seem that his cause for resentment was well justified, as it is only really coming to light this year that the Ducati really was a pig of a bike and that Stoner must have overidden it to get the results he gained. The tide is turning.......even over at Crash.net (Rossi bopperland) the number of Stoner fans is rapidly catching up to Rossi's. However ,over at MCN Talpas relatives still dominate the forum. Funny thing is, like Talpa, after accepting the favoured status of Honda this year, are mostly tipping Pedrosa to beat Stoner...............just like Talpa. Rossi fans really don,t like Stoner.

But for all of Stoners bad behaviour (if there really is that much I doubt), there is a real calculatedness to Rossis approach to his opposition.

His method of undermining and demonizing his strongest opponents was as sinister as it was subtle. Before we knew it Max Biaggi became Bad Max, Sete Gibernau became the pariah, the dobber, the one that was cursed never to win a race ever again. While Rossi had special tyres for all those years, virtually the minute the Bridgestones seemed better, he demanded to get those. He threatened to leave motoGP if he didn,t get what he wanted. There is a pattern emerging. Jumkie has very successfully elaborated on these points many times. You see Rossi is not quite the wonderful funny guy everybody thinks he is. Lorenzo was on the cusp of cementing his world title last year, so what did Rossi do..........did he play a supporting role? Of course not, he,s Valentino Rossi and motoGP is the Valentino Rossi show, so Rossi did his best to take attention away from Lorenzo and try to beat him up in that vital race. A real teammate? His team were not impressed either. So Rossi has an ego and he is competetive. Fair enough. At this level you probably need a bit of both to win, but I think his approach has gone beyond the bounds of good sportsmanship. I don,t think Doohan resorted to the same degree of shenanigans.

So, in summary, we Stoner fans are finally feeling that there is karma, that Stoner is finally being recognised for HIS skills and not the Ducatis speed. That Rossi is breing brought down a peg ot two. The fact that Rossi was not content to fight Lorenzo on equal footing has led to a questioning of his status as still the best rider in the world. Rossi,s arrogance and ego have resulted in a move to Ducati and a dramatic fall from grace so far , and a finish outside the top 3 this year will mean that his legacy as a motorcycle god will be forever tainted.

I'm gonna do something I rarely do and post reply without reading anything but the thread title. "rossi's legacy tainted"... I'll go back and actually read the rest of the thread after I've posted this. If my view is redundant I apologize ahead of time.

I have the distinct feeling that history will judge Rossi with a far blinder eye than we are seeing today. Even if Rossi's stint at Ducati turns out to be total debacle he has carved himself a niche in motorsports history. Ten years from now few will remember the currently perceived faults and many will remember his achievements. Whether you like it or not Rossi's legacy will be an enduring and ultimately positive one. Unless Vale pulls a OJ there ain't anything that's gonna "taint" his legend.

I've actually been contemplating the amount of time some members spend evangelizing and/or demonizing Rossi. Face it both camps - Valentino Rossi is a flawed human being exactly the same as any other (motor)sporting figure. He is egotistical, greedy, manipulative, and dishonest. He is also a proven champion for every manufacturer and in every level, format and class he has raced in as a professional. Period. The last fact alone is more the enough to guarantee his place in motorsport history.

Let me recap (and prepare for the flaming fallout). Even if Valentino Rossi fails miserably on the Ducati his legacy will not be tarnished, tainted nor diminished. History tends to be Incredibly lenient on iconic, multi-championship winning athletes. The faults we see today and tend to amplify will rate a minuscule or non-existent sidebar In the "legacy" of a dominant multi-championship winning racer.

Talpa · Mar 10, 2011

Keshav said:
Funny but with all the talk of Stoner having the championship to lose... nobody's mentioned

Pedrosa being able to take advantage of the super-duper clutch/transmission. I'm guessing

this'll give him a leg up on Lorenzo - even if Yamaha does pull a HP rabbit out of a hat -

which should make for good racing. I expect there's going to be a lot of Lorenzo, Pedrosa

and Spies battling for 2nd and 2rd - with Stoner doing the usual.

I have mentioned it several times, its more a reflection of the current wave of Teenage emotion at PS........

Keshav · Mar 10, 2011

Jumkie said:
Kesh, you just made my blood run cold. That's the only thing that keeps me up at night. Thinking that Stoner will have a few crashes and hand the title to Pedro. NOOOOOOOO!

Stoner's really going to have to learn to hold something in reserve - keep the crashes to

a minimum. He must know that Dani's going to pull all the stops out this year. I think it's

a great scenario. Stoner's more mature - and hopefully will dial back the win-it-or-bin-it

style. If Lorenzo continues to be down on HP - he'll have to resort to Rossi-style

Laguna-esque race craft to keep Pedrosa at bay. I reckon Lorenzo is the guy with

the most pressure coming from the greatest number of directions this year. Should

be a real test of character.

Rossi_fan · Mar 10, 2011

I would die laughing if Rossi COULD actually ride the ducati and is sandbagging to the 10th degree. If he comes out round 1 and wins, everyone will be silenced once again. The odds of that happening are slim to none, but man oh man would it make for good tv

renjith_varma · Mar 10, 2011

Keshav said:
I've been following the sport since 1979. And I remember tons of stuff without the benefit of Wikipedia. Others here can say

the same. If you don't know who the top riders were 10 years ago - you might want to take some time and do your homework.

If you base arguments on a pangloss, superficial knowledge of the sport - don't expect people to take you seriously. The original post said nothing about any certainty that Rossi would fail. It said that he's not looking good thus far

and prospects don't seem good - and that he brought this upon himself. Tho - should he do poorly over the season - it will do his reputation no good.

I think you missed the 'legend' part. I was meaning who posted the fastest time in pre season practice (as people here tend to make/break legacies based on free practce times). Please don't tell me you remember who was fastest in 2000 or 1990 pre season test.

Also if you see the title of the thread, it is PAST tense. You are right in one aspect - the original post didn't say with certainty that Rossi will fail. It said he failed aleady.

michaelm · Mar 10, 2011

Rossi_fan said:
I would die laughing if Rossi COULD actually ride the ducati and is sandbagging to the 10th degree. If he comes out round 1 and wins, everyone will be silenced once again. The odds of that happening are slim to none, but man oh man would it make for good tv

I have had this thought too and I wouldn't say the odds are none; he is nothing if not a showman, and the ducati test team were testing in europe at the same time as the 2nd sepang test. You would think that unless they made the changes suggested by rossi/jb after jerez and the thing was immediately shatteringly fast to a ridiculous degree he would still be availing himself of what little testing there is though.

Andy Roo · Mar 10, 2011

Rossi_fan said:
I would die laughing if Rossi COULD actually ride the ducati and is sandbagging to the 10th degree. If he comes out round 1 and wins, everyone will be silenced once again. The odds of that happening are slim to none, but man oh man would it make for good tv

A lot of egg on various faces and people like myself who have decided to bet cartons, kegs six packs and the like would be spending up big at the bottle shop

michaelm · Mar 10, 2011

Talpa said:
I have mentioned it several times, its more a reflection of the current wave of Teenage emotion at PS........

As I have argued elsewhere I think dani has the speed; his problems are not so much consistency or even stoner, but his fragility. His injury record is horrendous, and whilst it is true that injuries have not stopped him beating stoner in recent years they have stopped him ever really contending for the actual championship, and there are people other than stoner he has to beat to win the championship.

BHarvey · Mar 10, 2011

Rossi_fan said:
I would die laughing if Rossi COULD actually ride the ducati and is sandbagging to the 10th degree. If he comes out round 1 and wins, everyone will be silenced once again. The odds of that happening are slim to none, but man oh man would it make for good tv

His effort would have to be similar to a certain Aussie in 89' at PI.

And yes, That 89' race was damn good tv!

michaelm · Mar 10, 2011

Jumkie said:
Half naked in underwear, in the cold, with no top? Please, continue...(add pictures to the visual i already have).

Speaking of half naked people, here in the States we had a hall of fame quarterback by the name of Bret Favre. Similar to Rossi, he broke most records and was one of the most popular sports figures. But then he stayed too long and .... started to surface. In two years he became the butt of every sport joke. Starting with Rossi's public moaning of his teammate and laughable demands for Yamaha to can him, only to be beat, has started a similar path.

For me in particular, i had my opinion long before his move to Ducati and how it transpired. The thread asks is Rossi-brand tainted now? Well for me it was long before. It was easy to argue against my opinion since most everything could be brushed away as a baseless conspiracy theory, tho the evidence was there: best machine, team, etc is nothing new, but pref treatment, exclusive tires, skewed influence, added up to a much more successful career than would hav otherwise happened. I know and knew this, only now its started to be vindicated. Its an opinion, and I'm certainly in the minority.

I think favre is a different case. As I understand it favre only won 1 superbowl, not 7, and lost several or the chance of several despite great overall numbers due to a propensity to throw intercepts in critical moments. I understand poor off field behaviour has also contributed to his re-evaluation. Whilst I agree rossi is as ruthless a competitor as there is on track, there are not even slight murmurings about bad behaviour privately, and he seems to be a more gracious individual than most.

As mick d says later in the thread rossi will be remembered even more kindly than he is now, and even if he does not prosper at ducati this will not detract from him, just as lawson's time at cagiva is not given much weight. His main rival as GOAT, agostini, had much more marked bike advantages much of the time than even his critics would claim valentino has had.

Whilst he is not the St Francis of Assissi figure some perhaps regard him to be, I don't think he warrants demonising either, and most of these guys would attempt or have attempted to get priority in their teams and any other advantage they can get, it is the nature of high level sport. Pedrosa (or puig) has done the same, lorenzo would probably like the same, doohan wanted the same, all the top guys in F1 want the same. I don't know whether stoner has done it up to now, but I am not sure ducati have ever been capable of fully supporting 2 factory riders anyway.

What I do agree is that the famous jedi mind tricks may not be working any more, particularly on lorenzo, and that his recent statement suggests surprising insecurity, although even that may be an artefact of multiple translation.

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Rossi's Legacy Tainted

Kropotkin

Jumkie

Kropotkin

Jumkie

povol

Keshav

Mental Anarchist

Jumkie

BHarvey

Keshav

Mick D

Talpa

Keshav

Rossi_fan

renjith_varma

michaelm

Andy Roo

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BHarvey

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