Rossi's Legacy Tainted

Bunyip said:

I dont see why offering the same money as Lorenzo was an insult. Y

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Actually Bunny, Lorenzo took a pay cut. Les we forget the mad money Marlboro man threw at him. He turned it down.

Jumkie said:

Ah, so you must have seen Talpa in the crowd. (21 sec)



11528:Talpa.png]



Is it me, or does Talpa look a bit like Charlie Manson?



(Btw, I'll keep that job offer in mind)

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Jeeeesus! You're right. Same maniacal grin. it's one of life's truisms that everyone is scared of a madman.

I may have to agree with talpa in advance on this thread.



Rossi's record can never be tarnished, it is too great. At best (or worst as the case may be) it may be possible to say that in the latter stages of his career he had close challengers, on whom he had the edge prior to his injury last year, whilst noting that it was his business not to be injured of course. Also as has been said as far as this year goes he has yet to fail and stoner, lorenzo et al have yet to succeed, and I for one don't want to jinx stoner by making any premature claims.



The only thing that can be compared is success in races where riders have competed against each other. The bald facts are that over the 5 years stoner has raced him rossi has 26 wins to 23 and 2 championships to 1, and in 3 years he has 2 championships to 1 and more race wins (EDIT 17 to 14) in comparison to lorenzo. Bike advantages and the seeking or gaining of them has always been part of the sport if indeed not its major aim, and this applies to bike advantages purportedly held by rossi or by his rivals, and to rossi's peers among the previous greats.



If he had wanted to retire unchallenged he could have done so after his 2009 championship,which I thought he might do, and I do agree that if lorenzo or stoner win this year they will be comparable with rossi over their premier class careers at that time, but as I said neither has done so yet, and even if this eventuates he will likely have a strong chance of a deciding win in 2012.

michaelm said:

I may have to agree with talpa in advance on this thread.



Rossi's record can never be tarnished, it is too great. At best (or worst as the case may be) it may be possible to say that in the latter stages of his career he had close challengers, on whom he had the edge prior to his injury last year, whilst noting that it was his business not to be injured of course. Also as has been said as far as this year goes he has yet to fail and stoner, lorenzo et al have yet to succeed, and I for one don't want to jinx stoner by making any premature claims.



The only thing that can be compared is success in races where riders have competed against each other. the bald facts are that over the 5 years stoner has raced him rossi has 26 wins to 23 and 2 championships to 1, and in 3 years he has 2 championships to 1 and more race wins in comparison to lorenzo. Bike advantages and the seeking or gaining of them has always been part of the sport if indeed not its major aim, and this applies to bike advantages purportedly held by rossi or by his rivals, and to rossi's peers among the previous greats.



If he had wanted to retire unchallenged he could have done so after his 2009 championship,which I thought he might do, and I do agree that if lorenzo or stoner win this year they will be comparable with rossi over their premier class careers at that stage, but as I said neither has done so yet, and even if this eventuates he will likely have a strong chance of a deciding win in 2012.

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Yes indeed, its simple enough here on PS at present. Member's like Bunny 'hate' Rossi........there are a few, always the same, Boners/Haters who back each other up with the same POV's........Funny thing is of all they accuse members like myself of, I'm not the one going around starting what are essentially Stoner Hate/Bashing threads, to fuel my addiction while I have a few test results on my side......never have.



I mean in all seriousness, Rossi's Legacy......Tainted??!! Before we've even had Round 1.......Clearly the dementia has seriously intensified for the furry myth creature......

Bunyip said:

I dont see why offering the same money as Lorenzo was an insult. Yamaha had limited funds and needed to retain Lorenzo as he had just won them a title and represented Yamahas future. Rossi will be gone from motogp in afew years and Yamaha needed to secure one of the big guns from the next generation.



I disagree strongly with the continued myth about the superfast Ducati in 07. Over the years bike racing has shown us time and time again that a good handling bike is far superior to just a fast bike. You are still downplaying Stoners achievements on that bike. I thought the current tide of "new" information had done enough to dispel the myths.



My point really has nothing to do with Stoner winning this year. It is really about how Rossi will perform on the Ducati that Stoner managed respectable results on.

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Being offered the same money as Lorenzo isn't an insult. Taking a paycut and then having that given to Lorenzo is an insult. Yamaha made their choice - I have no issue with that. The market was willing to pay more for Rossi (as he had previously been paid) and he left.



Once someone could ride that Ducati, it was superfast. Stoner was the only one that got it hooked up and the point is that the Yamaha was glued to the track but got left for dead due to a deficiency in power, not due to a poor rider. Now one deficiency had a greater effect than the other in the early part of the season - it was obvious if you have two eyes. The only way the Yamaha had a chance of keeping up was to get far enough ahead in the corners to stop the Ducati blasting ahead on the straight. You can't deny that wasn't what those early races were about in 07. The longer the straight, the less chance Rossi had. The shorter the straight, the better he went - think Assen 07.



Stoner still had to ride the thing when noone else could. I can appreciate that and I do moreso these days than when watching the tv back in 2007. The implication of what you are saying is that if Stoner was on the Yamaha, he still would have won even if someone could ride the Ducati well. I just don't believe that is the case, it was like watching a Motogp bike against a Moto2 bike.



Your line regarding a good handling bike is far superior to a fast bike is generally true but like all generalisations, they can be very wrong at times. The statement also doesn't take into account the road/track on which that bike is riding. A good handling lesser powered Motogp bike is no good on a dragstrip when up against a more powerful motogp bike. A 125cc bike will outhandle a 800cc bike through corners any day. Where does the 800cc blast past? On the straights. On tighter tracks the gap between 125, Moto2 and Motogp bikes get closer together as the big bikes are not able to make proper use of their strengths. If you can't even acknowledge this, I am wasting my time.



@ Jumkie, I'm not denying an ultimatum or anything like that but $$ talk louder than words sometimes.

Its already tainted ...... the moment he rode the Duc. so poorly. Perhaps this would not have been so if he had kept his opinions of how Stoner was riding it, until he actually had a ride himself.

BarryMachine said:

Its already tainted ...... the moment he rode the Duc. so poorly. Perhaps this would not have been so if he had kept his opinions of how Stoner was riding it, until he actually had a ride himself.

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As has been said he actually hasn't ridden it poorly in even one let alone multiple races yet, which is when it counts. I obviously agree about his (and jb's) comments prior to actually encountering the ducati being premature, and arrogant for that matter, but some arrogance given the records of both is perhaps understandable if not admirable.

Bunyip said:

Don,t you get it. I don,t hate Rossi. Jumkie doesn,t hate Rossi. Andy doesn,t hate Rossi



We just don,t like partial observations from people like yourself. That to build Rossi up they have to put his opposition down.



I think he is the best motorcycle racer of all time. There. Isn,t that enough? But he is fallible and he now has challengers that many learned observers of the sport consider to be at least his equal now (JL, CS). And he has had unfair advantages in the past, but his record speaks for itself and will take an extraordinary rider to surpass.



And none of this contradicts what I said above. His refusal to combat Lorenzo on equal terms has taken him down a path where his performances are going to appear quite ordinary.

From testing and comments we can see that the Ducati with Rossi on board will not be competitive for a while (if at all). This is a fact.

Poor results will lead to surprise and frustration from his fans. Some will even be in denial and concoct weird reasons for Rossis failure to podium in the opening rounds. (Guess who?)

It is only when Rossis fans recognise that the bike is preventing him from obtaining reasonable results , that the same fans (mostly!) will be forced to admit that perhaps the young Mr Stoner wasn,t such a bad rider after all. That is the moment of ENLIGHTENMENT. For Rossi, whilst a great rider, with the best riding record to date, will be shown this year perhaps not to be the total riding god they imagined. His legacy will be tainted/tarnished, but it will still be outstanding.



Yes, you,re right, I must really hate Rossi

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I agree with some of your post however we don't know how competitive Rossi will be in the early part of the year until he goes out there and races. The more time he has at recuperation, the more physical and aggressive he can be on the bike.



Stoner was able to ride something noone else could. We are yet to see if Rossi can get there. He is willing to be a student though, he's not just resting on his laurels going I'm a 9 time world champion, you make a decent bike so I can get number 10. He knows he has to change his style a lot.



Let's wait until they both race. Stoner could crash round 1 and be injured for half the season. Rossi may get it together. Who the hell knows so why make conclusions based on things that are purely speculation coloured by the side of the fence your alliegences lie. The facts are:



Stoner - great tests.

Rossi - bad tests.



Stoner looks good for season start. Rossi doesn't. Does that mean that Rossi has therefore been tarnished/tainted? Too early to say. Judge at the end of 2011.

Bunny, it would have been more appropriate for you to start this thread at the end of the season after knowing the results, can't see any point of this thread at the moment apart from giving Boner's another thread to spread their hate.

inam said:

apart from giving Boner's another thread to spread their hate.

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Which is exactly what he wanted to do.

Bunyip said:

Don,t you get it. I don,t hate Rossi. Jumkie doesn,t hate Rossi. Andy doesn,t hate Rossi



We just don,t like partial observations from people like yourself. That to build Rossi up they have to put his opposition down.



I think he is the best motorcycle racer of all time. There. Isn,t that enough? But he is fallible and he now has challengers that many learned observers of the sport consider to be at least his equal now (JL, CS). And he has had unfair advantages in the past, but his record speaks for itself and will take an extraordinary rider to surpass.



And none of this contradicts what I said above. His refusal to combat Lorenzo on equal terms has taken him down a path where his performances are going to appear quite ordinary.

From testing and comments we can see that the Ducati with Rossi on board will not be competitive for a while (if at all). This is a fact.

Poor results will lead to surprise and frustration from his fans. Some will even be in denial and concoct weird reasons for Rossis failure to podium in the opening rounds. (Guess who?)

It is only when Rossis fans recognise that the bike is preventing him from obtaining reasonable results , that the same fans (mostly!) will be forced to admit that perhaps the young Mr Stoner wasn,t such a bad rider after all. That is the moment of ENLIGHTENMENT. For Rossi, whilst a great rider, with the best riding record to date, will be shown this year perhaps not to be the total riding god they imagined. His legacy will be tainted/tarnished, but it will still be outstanding.



Yes, you,re right, I must really hate Rossi

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Yet you accuse me of Hating Stoner, whilst I've never liked him much, I've always stated that he is a great rider and I don't start threads with the title 'Stoner's Legacy Tainted', Which would incite Stoner Bashing-this would be hating and encouraging hating. So before you throw out sweeping statements be prepared for the reaction which will inevitably ensue. This back pedal above isn't even particularly good......



BTW with a thread titled like this and your rather predictable opening statements, which were hypocritical, extraordinarily presumptuous and heavily swayed against Rossi, his career, his morals, ego, and his current 'testing' results before a wheel has turned in competition in 2011, do you honestly expect us to believe that you weren't inciting Rossi hating? Come on mate, the usual's have done their normal dance and its already been called even by more level headed Stoner fans. Accept it, you don't like the man.



(can't use 'boner' anymore it upsets those from out Boonah way, and I like Boonah-great spot )

Everyone in motogp has alien skills...just a few can keep it up to maximum for a long time. Stoner/B/Ducati was almost perfect combo in 2007...and it was very important for Stoners self esteem, but it as it looked he is not that strong to keep it up for a long time or in hard times (pressure). Pedrosa can do it...but has lack of self esteem (only in 2010 he showed a little bit more by overtaking back), Lorenzo was/is full of self esteem and can keep it up...or atleast he did in 2010 but it was not so difficult like it will be in 2011. Like i alwasy say...ITS ALL IN THE HEAD. Mine, yours, Caseys, Rossis... I still think Stoner married 2 quickly and Jumkie is the best of all of them





Rossi choice to end a career with ducati is good (perfect for him and his fans) in many many ways... We all knew that ducati is hard to handle, and that Rossi is not at 100%, and that hondas are going to be fast with Casey in 2011 and they need to get the last 800cc, and Jorge would love Rossi to stay at yamaha. So much pressure is off now, and he doesnt need it... right? He proved alot... and he can now take it "easy". Ducati has some great potencial and it is just a matter of time...

I still have a big faith in him that he could even suprise as all at the 1st race...but as he said...he will be back before Muggelo. And i dont doubt that.

I think if the hondas will be really that good and he could get 3rd in the championship is not that bad if he was 10th il be worried...but not so much becouse i would still bet on him for 1012 100%!





One more thought.... if he gets a little better resoult in qatar test and still be 0.7 sec off or even worse...and suprise all at the first race and win easy. I know its extreem but just think about it. All the rest of the field would be very very worried...and guess what, i would be to.



Just want close racing and close championship. I fear that if Stoner gets in his freakish mindset it would be very very boring...he has the skills, and so has everyone else on that grid



Im not saying the guys are equal on skills... Barbera can drive 4 corners in a row faster than everyone ever has...but cant keep it up and put it all together. Its the same with races...Casey has it the most, but just 1 championship.

Jumkie said:

Ah, so you must have seen Talpa in the crowd. (21 sec)



11528:Talpa.png]





(Btw, I'll keep that job offer in mind)

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Was my immediate thought when I saw the vid.

Talpa said:

Yet you accuse me of Hating Stoner, whilst I've never liked him much, I've always stated that he is a great rider and I don't start threads with the title 'Stoner's Legacy Tainted', Which would incite Stoner Bashing-this would be hating and encouraging hating. So before you throw out sweeping statements be prepared for the reaction which will inevitably ensue. This back pedal above isn't even particularly good......



BTW with a thread titled like this and your rather predictable opening statements, which were hypocritical, extraordinarily presumptuous and heavily swayed against Rossi, his career, his morals, ego, and his current 'testing' results before a wheel has turned in competition in 2011, do you honestly expect us to believe that you weren't inciting Rossi hating? Come on mate, the usual's have done their normal dance and its already been called even by more level headed Stoner fans. Accept it, you don't like the man.



(can't use 'boner' anymore it upsets those from out Boonah way, and I like Boonah-great spot

)

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Yes but you have spent your whole time on this forum actively tainting Stoner's results and his personality. Stoner is not the bad sport or poor personality as you have continuously tried to taint him with. People in the know (unlike yourself) who have sat opposite him, such as Krop, have said repeatedly that Stoner is nothing like the media and yellow army have painted him to be. I am all for you and anyone else being a huge fan of Rossi but you have done so at the expense of other riders and other fans. When the same is served back, just like your idol, you cry foul.



Personally I agree that Rossi's brand is being damaged by his off track behaviour. His on track results speak for them self and despite what I or anybody else says or thinks about the politics that could have contributed to his results he still had to go out there and do his thing on the bike. But as you have so often had issues with in regards to Stoner, his off track persona, others have issues with Rossi's. These issues in recent years have become more spoilt brat in their nature and the build up has, in my view, lead to a tidal switch which has definitely lead to a tainting of the #46 brand and by Rossi's recent comments about fans that are against him, I think he is starting to feel the tide shift as well.

Ah c'mon guys, get with the spirit. When I first came onto this thread Stoner was the Antichrist riding a two wheeled computer and the Stoner slaughter was on in every way. The bike rode itself, he was a computer geek, all his dirt track titles were .... and so on and so forth.



This is the internet, trolling and flaming are all part of it. The truth is argued and often never told.



There was a group of guys, part of was myself who defended him (Stoner) week after week, you know he can ride. But it was all too presumptuous for some kid with zits from Kurri Kurri (now Tamworth - his parents moved) to have defeated Rossi, At the time there was a strong voice of discontent about Hayden's 2006 title "the lucky title" as it was was.



Rossi was Omnipotent, beyond question the greatest ever. Other people didn't win races or championships, Rossi just had a bad day so they got lucky.



So it's just payback, seriously, they have been fighting religious wars in the middle east since the time of the Mesopotamians, whats a few years of arguing about motorbikes and the guys who ride them. This is fun. Rossi has a .... bike, Casey could win on it. The Casey crew (Boners) are reveling in it. We are. I don't ride the bike for him, but then I never rode it for Rossi either, and putting up with their (Boppers) vainglorious attempts over the last few years to place themselves beside him on the podium has been unbearable.



Yes it is is trolling, and is designed to get up your nose, and it did so there you have it.



Go Stoner!

Bunyip said:

I don,t know where this hate thing comes from. It seems that hate = not grovelling on the ground in front of "the great one", face-painting with yellow paint, having rossi or 46 somewhere in your name, or at your bedside at night chanting Rossi,s a champion, I,m a champion.







I doubt it.

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To be honest, I think this thread isn't as innocent as you want to portray. Its ok to say you don't worship Rossi blah, blah. I am perfectly fine with people having different perspectives. But going to the extent of saying his legacy is tarnished already (even before the season has begun) is a bit thick.

Firstly I can not believe that the creator of this post has actually got me out of bed. I fell upon this thread via the facebook feed, i was actually trying to get back to sleep! So i am now downstairs freezing semi naked about to post more Rossi/Stoner drivell.



Okay yes i am a loyal Rossi fan (but don't follow his every toilet stop) and yes I'm not keen on Stoner - but it his more his personality than his skills on a bike.



Already and recently Stoner has complained about having a 4 day motogp citing it too long!!?? Is it any wonder Ducati wanted rid. Stoner was probably doing the branding more harm than good. Yes he has or rather had done wonders on the Duck, having been the only rider to actually be able to ride the thing.



So i put it to you. Compare to Rossi the amount of years each rider has individually spent on a specific makers bike. I'm sure you will find (and i don't mind if i am wrong) that Stoner had not really spent very long on his previous bikes before he fitted right on the Duck. Hayden, he has took awhile to seem to get the podium finishes on that bike. So you can't expect any rider no matter how great they are to be able to fall straight into a new manifactory bike. I've heard somewhere that Rossi is changing his riding style - which unless you have endless practice results won't happen over night but we could possibly be seeing results on the 3rd race. Has Stoner had to change his riding style?????? If not, why not1? And i bet if he hasn't the little human changes will start to creep in through the season.





Secondly and probably hopefully will shut up the arguement.



The last three years of MotoGP has been a potential ultimate season to get the fans back,but, alas has always fallen sour and predictable. Lorenzo, showed tons of potential in the first of those three years (or was that the 2nd of those 3 years) but had lots to learn and was constantly being bucked off the bike thus resulting in a .... season and not much competition to push Rossi. Stoner now was it the first of the last three years? Yes i don't like the bloke but fact remains the year he was going to knock Rossi of his God like Status he was ill. Yes i took the piss, but since i have seen how much being ill to an everyday essential food item can take out of you. Stoner started well and then faded and subsequently missed 3 months, thus resulting in Rossi un touchable. Last year, the year which resulted in Lorenzo winning was going to be a stonker of a season with Hayden putting in fast laps and Pedrosa creeping very quietly up on every one it could have been any ones. Rossi had his first ever off resulting in a bad leg break, previous to which that much debated (on here) shoulder injury. He was technically out for the rest of the season. Stoner yes did not look through the season not to be trying but when you know a team doesn't want you and don't seem to help - no matter how much you moan is it any wonder he seemed to make every excuse under the sun. And i think the other riders could have been spooked by Rossi's break, after all the God is still breakable and people sometimes forget that. And also the death of a friend.



So even though certain people have put in fast test times and others seemingly ....., (resulting in speculations such as this thread) it's not what you do in training, it's not what you say on camera, its not the talk in the paddock to wind up the other competitors ITS ACTUALLY SURPRISINGLY TRUE ITS WHAT YOU DO ON RACE DAY (not the practice day or even the fast lap to get you a podium start)!



This season is an open book just like the last three years. Its anyones as long as they stay healthy and shinny side up. I wish all riders a fantastic season and i hope Rossi does win but is pushed and its down to the wire on the last race of the season.

Fark me! That was worth getting out of bed for? Don't want to speculate about the half naked bit....



Pretty funny to criticize Stoner for his responses about spending 4 days in Qatar. Did you even read the interview?



Oh yeah, Ducati must be so happy to be rid of him. He sure damaged the brand name by winning on their bike.